Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

[NJSleuth91]

I am sure that Professor Dyck was totally unaware of the 'hard life' and 'environmental factors' and the general expectation that B and K seemed to have that their lives, B and K lives were more important, more valuable, more significant, than the lives of Miss Deese, Mr Fowler, and Professor Dyck.

As an ironic and one could even say, karmartic finale, both Bry and Kam must have realized, somewhere near the end of their revenge filled swathe thru the Canadian outback, that in fact, their lives , their own lives, Kam's life and Bry's life was not worth , on the scale of things, as much as a stale crumpet.

This realization was probably the first time either of them had managed to face up to the reality and the inevitability of their chosen path of always playing the victim. Finally, they had to play the victim to themselves. No other way out.

And so it ended. Sum total of worth? K and B. = nothing. The one impact they both made was on a world stage of adding significantly to the misery. That misery being compounded by the sheer idiocy and stupid relentless determination to plough on , and kill strangers, and gain nothing, absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zilch.,

That should go on their gravestone. Kam, worth nothing. Bryer, worth nothing.

I mean, that's pretty much how history will remember them now. They're certainly not going to be remembered positively. Plus they most likely died a pretty terrible death. It sounds like you really have a desire to know that they suffered and are like, burning in eternal damnation or something. I am pretty confident that they did suffer essentially hell on earth, especially in the last days before they died, considering the terrain they were in. So you can be satisfied by that at least.

But, it didn't have to be that way. If you really believe that they were always destined to kill and that there was absolutely nothing that could have been done to prevent it, that is one of the most nihilistic views I have ever heard of. Nihilistic and totally not backed up by criminological or psychological research.

Honestly though, to me it sounds more like you're saying "I don't think their lives were that bad, therefore we shouldn't bother to consider environmental factors that turn people into killers, even if it could allow us to intervene and prevent people from turning into killers next time." And if so, that means that your desire to impose a moral standard of how things "should" be based on your perspective, is greater than your desire to actually prevent future crimes from happening.

It doesn't matter if WE don't think that their circumstances should have led them to murder. I certainly don't think they should have. As I said, my background was at least as messed up, and I'm certainly not about to go and hurt people. But it doesn't really matter what our judgment of the situation is. The only thing that matters is the actions we can take to prevent the next senseless killing. And according to research, that requires considering and addressing environmental factors, mental illness, and trauma.

I'm pretty sure the victims would have rather that someone intervened and prevented this, even if the reasons the perpetrators had for their rage at the world weren't "all that bad," all things considered.

 

[missy1974]

Most killers aren't these Ted Bundy kind of sociopaths.

RSBM - Ted Bundy had a messed up childhood too. His sister was actually his mother... abusive family, etc.

 

[NJSleuth91]

It has already been pointed out, and the point is valid, that these are not mass murders. These appear to be robberies. Completely different motive. The first robbery led to the second one.

We don't know that for sure yet. I think there's a good likelihood of that being the case, but it is not confirmed. Either way if you read the excerpt I posted, you will see why I posted it. It seems to fit what we know about them pretty exactly, regardless of whether they set out to kill or not.

RSBM - Ted Bundy had a messed up childhood too. His sister was actually his mother... abusive family, etc.

See! I don't know too much about him, but I knew someone would probably say something like that...even Ted Bundy had both nature and nurture.

 

[SiciC]

New article featuring Chynna's brother.

Brother of B.C. murder victim Chynna Deese says he may never know why she had to die

Chynna had a beautiful family, she and her siblings all had unique and nice names. We all get caught up in the theories about Kam and Bryer, I'm guilty to say hadn't even thought yesterday about how it has been one full month since Chynna and Lucas were found murdered. I thought of it this morning when I looked at my calendar. I think one positive is that her family seems very strong and supportive of eachother, they're lucky to have eachother in such hard times. I think as tragic as this is, it will make them stronger and closer. One can hope.

That article made me think again about how Chynna only had one shoe when she was found. I wonder if the other shoe was located or not. If it wasn't, that would be very strange. If it was, she likely stumbled out of it while being attacked, or was in the middle of putting on her shoes when she was attacked.

 

[otto]

RCMP should have spoken to the father to determine whether there had been any contact.

If not, I do not think the police should have an obligation to try more than a couple of times. It would be nice if parents picked up police calls, as that's part of being a parent.

My phone wouldn't show that it was police, though. Just that it was a local number. Unless I had police in my contacts.

Answering and then hanging up on the police once one learns it the police is not a good look, really.

Calls from police have blocked numbers - no information indicating that it is a police call. If they had left a message the father would have been notified that his son was missing.

RCMP should look to reduce the drama in these situations by ensuring that all parents of victims and missing persons are notified before going public.

 

[missy1974]

Listen, no one has a monopoly on misery.

People worry that they will never understand why KM and BS did what they did, but they are unwilling to hear what made them what they are?

You can't have it both ways. If you don't accept that these kids had a lot of anger and grief to fuel them, you will never "get it".

I think we are all just trying to understand. Or at least some of us are.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I wasn’t referring to a specific topic of debate and whether or not police determined random murderers were on the loose quickly enough. What evidence to connect B & K to the 3 murders has been questioned by some and so the media report I linked explains several of the reasons why the general public didn’t receive investigative updates from the RCMP, or why LE didn’t inform the general public of the evidence that led them to conclude two were suspects in all three murders.

Oh, good point. I guess I kind of ignored those and forgot all about them. It's just so standard and with good reason. Tunnel vision on my part.

 

[FactFinder3000]

RCMP should have spoken to the father to determine whether there had been any contact.


Calls from police have blocked numbers - no information indicating that it is a police call. If they had left a message the father would have been notified that his son was missing.

RCMP should look to reduce the drama in these situations by ensuring that all parents of victims and missing persons are notified before going public.

Yeah, phone, text, and email were all available, I would assume.

And Alan was reportedly very upset RCMP had not contacted him.

 

[missy1974]

See! I don't know too much about him, but I knew someone would probably say something like that...even Ted Bundy had both nature and nurture.

I watched the stupid Netflix show LOL and a google search gives lots of links to his childhood, it was messed up.

 

[KR72]

I get that Bryer had a rough upbringing and that we don't know too much about Kam so far but I think there's more going on here than simply an unfortunate childhood. A lot of people suffer from similar situations or worse and don't kill. Some people come from totally functional backgrounds and commit the most heinous crimes. People who do evil things come from all walks of life.

MOO, but I think these two were the perfect storm together. Bryer obviously had severe anger issues, maybe he was mentally ill on top of those issues, (mental illness is not a pass to commit murder of course, and most mentally ill people don't kill, they're often victims). Bryer and Kam obviously fed off each other. Maybe one of them was a sociopath? Maybe both?

Here's an interesting article from The Atlantic.

When Your Child Is a Psychopath

 

[Trooper]

Mr McLeod and Mr Schemelgsky had no monopoly on 'anger and grief'.

Half of Port Alberni probably has , individually, more anger and grief than Kam nor Bry could possibly conceive of.

What half of Port Alberni didn't do was strut on out along the highways and by ways of the provinces of Canada, killing at random , at whim, a woman, a young man and an elderly man. That's what the other folks of Port Alberni didn't do.

So what made Kam and Bryer's 'anger and grief' more important, more valid, more actionable, than anyone else's?


Nothing, is what.


What differentiates K and B from the rest is their CHOSEN determination to extract some relief by the mechanics of cold blooded murder. It takes a tremendous determination to kill two unarmed people, one a woman. They had to both reach a pitch of rage commensurate with the task before them, other wise it could get very over extended, the killings had to be quick, and in this , they managed very well. Both got themselves up to concert pitch to murder and pillage, and also, just incidentally, to have a bit of discernment in what to take from Mr Fowlers van.

They were cool headed enough to do that.

Then on to the next victim.

How very odd, then, that the proposition is, they both had the same degree of 'anger and grief'. How did this happen, from their very different backgrounds, then? If , as is proposed, they both had this overwhelming 'anger and grief', how come they both got there from very different paths, to the exact same level of anger and grief?

This is the problem with this proposal that both these men were hard done by to the extent, that together, from different paths, from different genetic makeup, from different backgrounds, it is to be assumed they both got to exactly the same pitch of 'anger and grief' at the exact same time in the exact same situation, that is, standing there beside the van of Mr Fowler.,

Then , they did the same thing again, with Prof Dyck. Both , in the exact same pitch of anger and grief, etc..


What's wrong with this picture?

 

[NJSleuth91]

I get that Bryer had a rough upbringing and that we don't know too much about Kam so far but I think there's more going on here than simply an unfortunate childhood. A lot of people suffer from similar situations or worse and don't kill. Some people come from totally functional backgrounds and commit the most heinous crimes. People who do evil things come from all walks of life.

MOO, but I think these two were the perfect storm together. Bryer obviously had severe anger issues, maybe he was mentally ill on top of those issues, (mental illness is not a pass to commit murder of course, and most mentally ill people don't kill, they're often victims). Bryer and Kam obviously fed off each other. Maybe one of them was a sociopath? Maybe both?

Here's an interesting article from The Atlantic.

When Your Child Is a Psychopath

I've considered if they were sociopaths and I just don't see it. Sociopaths are usually superficially charming, and they weren't at all. Sociopaths generally don't feel any fear and they were completely freaking out according to witnesses. They also were both very shy before all this. Sociopaths also are not very likely to be suicidal, as they have a strong self-preservation drive. I think this was the opposite problem. I think these crimes came about as the result of an over-abundance of emotions without any healthy coping mechanisms to deal with them, not as a result of lack of emotions. While it may be tempting to say that everyone who kills is a sociopath, it's not true. I think they both had severe long-standing depression, which can cause emotional numbing, anger, reduced empathy, increased impulsivity, reduced ability to think clearly, possibly -- if severe enough -- the lack of ability to even see the concept of life itself as a positive thing, it can even cause psychotic symptoms in some cases, and is linked to an increased risk of violence (threefold increase according to one study I found). JMO.

EDIT: Also it says right in the article: "Researchers believe that two paths can lead to psychopathy: one dominated by nature, the other by nurture. For some children, their environment—growing up in poverty, living with abusive parents, fending for themselves in dangerous neighborhoods—can turn them violent and coldhearted. These kids aren’t born callous and unemotional; many experts suggest that if they’re given a reprieve from their environment, they can be pulled back from psychopathy’s edge."

 

[sprucetip]

Some of the others here mentioned public showers at campgrounds and beaches, or even truck stop showers. I find all of those quite viable as possibilities. And yup, they do look clean in the video, which is just hours after their reported morning entanglement with the mud.

Cleaning the mud off the outside of the RAV would be easy enough - a drive through car wash. Getting mud off themselves and their clothes, not so easy. A public shower - but mid-day, at a campground? But, they cleaned up, somehow.

As for B's clean-shaven look, I've seen a pic of him unshaven (the one where he's got red and black headphones around his neck, and looking mean/scary) so he's definitely shaving sometimes, my guess is within 48 hours of that video.

I'll be honest, one of the reasons this cleanliness was nagging at me is I can think of one other explanation for their fresh appearance. They showered in a private home they'd accessed. I just hope that's not true, and there aren't more bodies to find.

BBM

Yikes! That is a scary thought.

 

[Optics]

s
I just wonder what happened to Kam. We haven't been discussing him nearly as much because there's so much less information, but I feel like something had to have happened (not necessarily from his family, as we have no evidence of that so far, but from somewhere). People have remarked on how he had such a nice smile -- how do you go from that to killing three people and yourself? That doesn't happen overnight. I'm feeling like it was probably a similar story to Bryer in some ways and that's why they were so bonded. Based on what his Walmart coworker said, that he seemed uncomfortable talking to anyone except Bryer, I'm pretty sure he had social anxiety at least. I wonder if we will ever know.

That above regarding Kam is where I seriously feel all the answers lie. I feel there is too much trigger happy conversation that singles out Bryer, but I felt and still feel Kam is the bigger issue and brains behind everything.

 

[Trooper]

Chynna had a beautiful family, her and her siblings all had unique and nice names. We all get caught up in the theories about Kam and Bryer, I'm guilty to say hadn't even thought yesterday about how it has been one full month since Chynna and Lucas were found murdered. I thought of it this morning when I looked at my calendar. I think one positive is that her family seems very strong and supportive of eachother, they're lucky to have eachother in such hard times. I think as tragic as this is, it will make them stronger and closer. One can hope.

That article made me think again about how Chynna only had one shoe when she was found. I wonder if the other shoe was located or not. If it wasn't, that would be very strange. If it was, she likely stumbled out of it while being attacked, or was in the middle of putting on her shoes when she was attacked.

No one knows how long it the interception between Kam and Bryer and Chynna and Lucas was. It may have been seconds, it may have been long minutes, it may have been an hour. They may have undressed Chynna and partially dressed her body again, who knows? no one knows. No one knows, how quick or how long the suffering went on for.

No one knows what was going on in the minds of K and B , being faced with a woman, a very attractive young woman, in a pair of shorts and a tank top , or the effect this may have had on two hicks from Port Alberni, up to that time, as far as anyone knows, girlfriend free, in other words, possibly inexperienced and yet feeling very powerful with the weaponry.

Who knows? . the missing shoe has such hideous implications that are quite rational , considering the end game here, to consider. Her body was remarkably damaged, according to the RCMP, who's judgement on this matter I trust implicitly.

 

[KR72]

That above regarding Kam is where I seriously feel all the answers lie. I feel there is too much trigger happy conversation that singles out Bryer, but I felt and still feel Kam is the bigger issue and brains behind everything.

I agree 100%. Bryer's very out there, Kam seems much more calculating.

 

[Optics]

I've meant to post for a while and kept getting interrupted , On the issue of the burnt truck/camper and the Rav4. The truck was fueled by diesel and the Rav4 by gasoline. The intensity of the fire on the truck/camper was significantly quicker,hotter and bigger, simply because diesel used on a burn is so way faster to set off a big burn.

 

[SiciC]

I am sure that Professor Dyck was totally unaware of the 'hard life' and 'environmental factors' and the general expectation that B and K seemed to have that their lives, B and K lives were more important, more valuable, more significant, than the lives of Miss Deese, Mr Fowler, and Professor Dyck

I don't think they necessarily thought their lives were more important, valuable or significant than anyone... Considering they took their own lives in the end, I think they may have thought the opposite of their own worth. They could have felt they had nothing to good live for and nothing good going for them and nothing to look forward to, and so did some heinous things because they were angry at the world, felt they had nothing to lose or gain in their life anyways because they wouldn't be around longer. They could've been majorly depressed and felt useless. Of course that excuses nothing, I know this kind of thinking is hard to understand for most people, but I just don't think these were some smug killers. If they were, I think they would've had a shootout or something with police instead of killing themselves alone in the woods where they might never be found. Of course, this is just speculation. None of us know what those guys were thinking.

That should go on their gravestone. Kam, worth nothing. Bryer, worth nothing.

I understand your anger and everything, but I think this is a bit harsh. Yes what they did(if they did it) is unforgivable and monstrous, but they were peoples children.. People loved these teens and those people are undoubtedly extremely hurt and shocked by all of this. I don't think those families think their children were worth nothing despite what they have potentially done. There had to be reasons for all of this, kids aren't born just to kill others, themselves and for nothing else. Something was wrong.

It makes me think of the case of Paris Bennett, a 13 year old who killed his 4 year old sister because he was an undiagnosed psychopath at the time. His mother, despite how broken she was over it, maintains to this day that she still loves her son even though he killed her own daughter. (She also says though, that she won't have contact with him when he's released from jail because she's scared of him. For now as he's in jail, she maintains regular contact and a relationship with him.)

 

[Trooper]

Chynna had a beautiful family, her and her siblings all had unique and nice names. We all get caught up in the theories about Kam and Bryer, I'm guilty to say hadn't even thought yesterday about how it has been one full month since Chynna and Lucas were found murdered. I thought of it this morning when I looked at my calendar. I think one positive is that her family seems very strong and supportive of eachother, they're lucky to have eachother in such hard times. I think as tragic as this is, it will make them stronger and closer. One can hope.

That article made me think again about how Chynna only had one shoe when she was found. I wonder if the other shoe was located or not. If it wasn't, that would be very strange. If it was, she likely stumbled out of it while being attacked, or was in the middle of putting on her shoes when she was attacked.

No one knows how long it took Lucas to die. No one knows who died first. Maybe Lucas , dying, had to watch Chynna's protracted death. No one knows.

It would be a very very long stretch and one hell of a shaky limb to climb out on and claim that the killings of Mr Fowler, Miss Deese and Proff Dyck were clean, expert, quick kills.

A hell of a stretch to claim that.

 

[KR72]

The fact that Chynna was found with only one shoe on makes me think she was dragged by the suspects.