Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

[SnooperDuper]

again you are misrepresenting what people say to shore up some point on a hill you are digging in on.

We are not allowed to attack others personally on WS. We are allowed to debate the case.

 

[Zella]

I just wonder what happened to Kam. We haven't been discussing him nearly as much because there's so much less information, but I feel like something had to have happened (not necessarily from his family, as we have no evidence of that so far, but from somewhere). People have remarked on how he had such a nice smile -- how do you go from that to killing three people and yourself? That doesn't happen overnight. I'm feeling like it was probably a similar story to Bryer in some ways and that's why they were so bonded. Based on what his Walmart coworker said, that he seemed uncomfortable talking to anyone except Bryer, I'm pretty sure he had social anxiety at least. I wonder if we will ever know.

SBM

I don't think Kam had social anxiety.

That WM employee is the only one so far who has mentioned anything being off about him, and she specifically references it in relation to physical proximity/contact. Here's what she said: "Usually, people are shy, but the whole not-standing-next-to-you or getting-close-to-you? That’s the odd part."

Searching for answers: Sense of unease lingers in B.C.’s isolated north as police hunt suspects in remote killings

Everyone else who has talked so far, including people who just had more of an acquaintance with Kam than a friendship, indicated he was actually pleasant to be around and noted nothing "off" with how he came across in public. I don't think he was necessarily what people would call charming, but I do think the general impression most people had of him was that he was polite and relatively friendly.

The gist I get is he may not have liked being touched by people he didn't know or having people he didn't know in his personal space, and honestly, I'm the same way, so I don't think it is that unusual.

I'd love to hear more from the WM coworker on what she witnessed or about her interaction/interactions with him that led to that comment. She also indicated otherwise he was "nice enough," so it seems like otherwise, they had a civil, relatively normal relationship for 2 coworkers who otherwise didn't know each other.

Obviously, something was wrong with Kam--murder sprees aren't normal--but I don't think he had social anxiety.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

There have been several long-winded posts here stating that we should have nothing but pure unbridled hate for BS and KM...

...but isn't that the sort of emotion that brought us to this point? Passionate hate is never ok, even if you righteously hold it in the name of victims. That's how wars are begun and millions have died.

What BS and KM did was unequivocally wrong, but it is equally wrong to brew hate in response.

I don’t think anyone expressed hate. But if B&K bear no responsibility whatsoever in the choices and actions they took which resulted in immense grief, anguish, fright and not to overlook the senseless (accused) murder of three innocent victims - if the general public condones their alleged acts by blaming it on other circumstances, what kind of message does that send to others in a similar situation who are presently struggling to rise above the same type of adversity? Nobody shows sympathy toward them for not committing murder or for not creating turmoil. Instead they’re going quietly about their lives doing the right thing by striving to overcome without yearning for the glory of becoming headline news as a result of despicable, cowardly behaviour. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Mr McLeod and Mr Schemelgsky had no monopoly on 'anger and grief'.

Half of Port Alberni probably has , individually, more anger and grief than Kam nor Bry could possibly conceive of.

What half of Port Alberni didn't do was strut on out along the highways and by ways of the provinces of Canada, killing at random , at whim, a woman, a young man and an elderly man. That's what the other folks of Port Alberni didn't do.

So what made Kam and Bryer's 'anger and grief' more important, more valid, more actionable, than anyone else's?


Nothing, is what.


What differentiates K and B from the rest is their CHOSEN determination to extract some relief by the mechanics of cold blooded murder. It takes a tremendous determination to kill two unarmed people, one a woman. They had to both reach a pitch of rage commensurate with the task before them, other wise it could get very over extended, the killings had to be quick, and in this , they managed very well. Both got themselves up to concert pitch to murder and pillage, and also, just incidentally, to have a bit of discernment in what to take from Mr Fowlers van.

They were cool headed enough to do that.

Then on to the next victim.

How very odd, then, that the proposition is, they both had the same degree of 'anger and grief'. How did this happen, from their very different backgrounds, then? If , as is proposed, they both had this overwhelming 'anger and grief', how come they both got there from very different paths, to the exact same level of anger and grief?

This is the problem with this proposal that both these men were hard done by to the extent, that together, from different paths, from different genetic makeup, from different backgrounds, it is to be assumed they both got to exactly the same pitch of 'anger and grief' at the exact same time in the exact same situation, that is, standing there beside the van of Mr Fowler.,

Then , they did the same thing again, with Prof Dyck. Both , in the exact same pitch of anger and grief, etc..


What's wrong with this picture?

That you give absolutely no reason for your own chosen explanation (they made decisions; okay, well, that's your hypothesis - you don't have access to the contents of their minds and further more, you say there is NO causation).

So we're done, then, in trying to understand these crimes.

Why would you assume they got to any pitch of anger or grief or whatever - much less the same one?

There are many kinds of murderers. I suggest reading Donald Lunde's book on the two main kinds (neither of which get themselves emotionally worked up to kill). He interviewed more killers (eventually convicted) than anyone else of his day and, as he was a psychiatrist, he conducted interviews in a way clinically designed to help understand what was going on.

There's also an increasing amount of research on how different kinds of killers process their kills inside their heads (all post-kill, of course, but still interesting).

Anger-driven murders are also studied, there are lots of those, but they are almost always either about vengeance or they are born out of domestic situations and have stories to go with them.

Killing in cold blood does not require the two killers to be in the same emotional state and in fact, I would expect them not to be.

 

[SnooperDuper]

The crime scene photos were posted here in one of the earlier threads (not for the squemish, truly heartbreaking) and Chynna appears to be fully clothed from head to toe. She appears to be wearing black leggings. Chynna was also reported to be wearing one shoe.
Lucas also looks dressed.
The scence does not show any indication of a sexual assault.
JMO

The Australian press published them online and the RCMP had to ask them to take them down. It's like they have a huge affection for TMI down there. Imagine opening the morning paper at breakfast and seeing that.

I think it's sensationalism to say that there was a sexual assault, personally.

 

[KR72]

I don't see how one would've had that opportunity without Lucas intervening before it even happened, so I don't think it could've been "interrupted" by him. He might have been an obstacle prior if that did happen, and that might've resulted in a conflict and maybe to him being shot. I think a potential robbery or just spotting an old van to shoot up and then realizing people were in it is what happened, it's possible someone then saw Chynna and attempted something, but I don't think the van was targeted specifically because someone knew Chynna was in there.

We don't know anything about that though but my, if that occurred it would make the whole thing even more heinous than it already is.

He could have been in the van or sleeping, Chynna outside and the suspects saw her and pulled over. He heard a commotion and tried to intervene from there or he was an obstacle like you mention. Maybe the two didn't sexually assault Chynna, but perhaps they tried?

I don't think BS and KM had a real reason to simply rob CD and LF. Robbery occurred, yes, but was it the intent and the motive or was it simply opportunistic? By all accounts, Kam's family had money and now we're hearing that Bryer left PA with a "significant amount of money." If the two suspects needed cash, why wouldn't Kam asked his parents to help him out? It seems like they were supportive and I'm sure transferring some cash into his account would have been no issue. Most parents wouldn't just leave their child stranded in Northern BC with no money and Kam's family seemed supportive. Sure, he may have ended up with a lecture for being irresponsible, but if

I understand their motivation for robbing LD and that part of their spree made "sense" (as awful as that sounds) but I can't understand why they targeted CD and LF.

 

[Trooper]

I don’t think anyone expressed hate. But if B&K bear no responsibility whatsoever in the choices and actions they took which resulted in immense grief, anguish, fright and not to overlook the senseless (accused) murder of three innocent victims - if the general public condones their alleged acts by blaming it on other circumstances, what kind of message does that send to others in a similar situation who are presently struggling to rise above the same type of adversity? Nobody shows sympathy toward them for not committing murder or for not creating turmoil. Instead they’re going quietly about their lives doing the right thing by striving to overcome without yearning for the glory of becoming headline news as a result of despicable, cowardly behaviour. JMO

Precisely.

There doesn't seem much point in attempting to give K and B a free pass to murder and violate and steal ( which is strangely forgotten, they were thieves in addition to murderers ) on the grounds , the undeniable grounds that there are millions of people , young men out there, with 'anger and grief' . Why should Kam and Bry get a back stage ticket , while the great preponderance of people, suffering exactly the same, possibly, and most probably stronger grief, greater anger yet managing to refrain from tootling off down the highway in a vehicle gifted to them ( how many young men get this kind of gift ? ) and begin a process of hunting down and killing folks parked on the side of the road?

How many?


well. not that many, really. very damn few, actually, and all those young blokes, with all this anger and grief, too, all with ditzy mothers who didn't get them to the dentist, all with fathers who the government treated badly, and who's wives ran off from them, all these young blokes, as I say, are keeping a hold of themselves, and dealing with their A and G like the rest of us.

Far better to figure out what these other young men are doing right, that waste time trying to pin it down on some poor woman, bringing up a snarky little kid in an isolated village on the coast of Canada under Harper!.. that must have been grindingly hard. With an ex husband who would not stop stalking and stalking and stalking her, again and again and again.. .

 

[NJSleuth91]

I don’t know about you people but I can’t get enough of Trooper’s posts…. intuitive, sensible, articulate and wise.

Merci Trooper

Yeah I think he lost the "intuitive, sensible, articulate, and wise" designation when he literally compared me to the killers for saying something he disagreed with...Jesus Christ.

 

[otto]

He could have been in the van or sleeping, Chynna outside and the suspects saw her and pulled over. He heard a commotion and tried to intervene from there or he was an obstacle like you mention. Maybe the two didn't sexually assault Chynna, but perhaps they tried?

I don't think BS and KM had a real reason to simply rob CD and LF. Robbery occurred, yes, but was it the intent and the motive or was it simply opportunistic? By all accounts, Kam's family had money and now we're hearing that Bryer left PA with a "significant amount of money." If the two suspects needed cash, why wouldn't Kam asked his parents to help him out? It seems like they were supportive and I'm sure transferring some cash into his account would have been no issue. Most parents wouldn't just leave their child stranded in Northern BC with no money and Kam's family seemed supportive. Sure, he may have ended up with a lecture for being irresponsible, but if

I understand their motivation for robbing LD and that part of their spree made "sense" (as awful as that sounds) but I can't understand why they targeted CD and LF.

They were looking for people in isolated situations. Chynna and Lucas fit the bill. They were alone on the side of the highway in the middle of the night. Leonard Dyck was in the same situation, but it was 7PM instead of 11:30PM.

 

[acutename]

i

I feel like if there was a sexual assault, it would have come out by now. I could be wrong, but usually the media finds that kind of stuff out, and that's the kind of detail that would get more attention on the case which would have accelerated the manhunt.

If Chynna was shot in the face and Lucas was shot in the side of the abdomen, to me that indicates something that was unplanned and sloppy, and didn't go as expected. Like more of a robbery situation. Because the abdomen around the hip is not really the first location someone would think to shoot in a murder, like it's a potentially survivable wound. I feel like with a planned murder, maybe they would both be shot in the same location, such as the head? But I really don't know.

If it really was dark (only about 3 hrs of "real" darkness, I think someone calculated), it was dark for the shooter(s) too and he/they may not have been able to aim for whatever he/they were aiming for. I do not understand "killing all the witnesses" if you are going to commit suicide in the end anyway. I also do not know how they got all the money, ID, etc out of the van without good flashlights, because combing through a strange vehicle packed with stuff seems daunting. I guess they could have demanded items from L & C and then killed them. I just do not see how they became criminals "overnight" unless they had some juvenile offenses that we do not know about. It seems abrupt, IMO.

 

[SiciC]

if the general public condones their alleged acts by blaming it on other circumstances, what kind of message does that send to others in a similar situation who are presently struggling to rise above the same type of adversity? Nobody shows sympathy toward them for not committing murder or for not creating turmoil. Instead they’re going quietly about their lives doing the right thing by striving to overcome without yearning for the glory of becoming headline news as a result of despicable, cowardly behaviour. JMO

sbm & bbm

Personally I don't think Kam and Bryer went out and did what they did yearning for "glory of becoming headline news". I think if that's what they wanted we would have seen even more atrocities. I hardly think they got to enjoy the glory of being a major news story, or even hardly observe it, because by the time the news about them got as big as it became, headline news, they were in the woods and would've likely had no idea what was being said about them in the news or anywhere else. They may have died not ever knowing how notorious they were, or that anyone had any idea what they'd done. I just think there's a chance they didn't go out on that trip intending the outcome. I don't know obviously, that's jmo. But there's so many anomalies in the story, and it doesn't make sense. Imo only.

 

[Zella]

They were looking for people in isolated situations. Chynna and Lucas fit the bill. They were alone on the side of the highway in the middle of the night. Leonard Dyck was in the same situation, but it was 7PM instead of 11:30PM.

This is my impression, too. I think that's why there were no more crimes--they didn't find anybody else alone on an isolated stretch of road.

 

[KR72]

They were looking for people in isolated situations. Chynna and Lucas fit the bill. They were alone on the side of the highway in the middle of the night. Leonard Dyck was in the same situation, but it was 7PM instead of 11:30PM.

Yes, but why is the question. They robbed them, but why? I'm just saying I don't think robbery was the motive for killing LF and CD. Opportunistic, yes.

 

[NJSleuth91]

i


If it really was dark (only about 3 hrs of "real" darkness, I think someone calculated), it was dark for the shooter(s) too and he/they may not have been able to aim for whatever he/they were aiming for. I do not understand "killing all the witnesses" if you are going to commit suicide in the end anyway. I also do not know how they got all the money, ID, etc out of the van without good flashlights, because combing through a strange vehicle packed with stuff seems daunting. I guess they could have demanded items from L & C and then killed them. I just do not see how they became criminals "overnight" unless they had some juvenile offenses that we do not know about. It seems abrupt, IMO.

Possible: it was a robbery, Lucas came out and startled them in the darkness and one of them panicked and shot Lucas, which explains the random location of the wound. Then Chynna heard the commotion and came running out with one shoe on, and one of them shot her to eliminate the witness. They may have taken the IDs to hinder the investigation. The robbery would be for thrill rather than money, unless they may have planned to never come back to Port Alberni.

 

[MistyWaters]

It has already been pointed out, and the point is valid, that these are not mass murders. These appear to be robberies. Completely different motive. The first robbery led to the second one.

Do you think either L&C or LD represented a serious threat to B&K over a failed robbery attempt? No this certainly wasn’t an example of homicide committed in self defence, especially not twice. Even robbers make choices. If they’re caught do they walk away with a “sorry, sorry, I didn’t mean no harm” or do they murder the witnesses to get what they want?

Murder that begins as a robbery is just as reprehensible as murder for any other reason because it demonstrates the perps seek self gratification and thrive on dishonesty and greed instead placing value on human life. These two had no reason to rob nor were they destitute. JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I don’t think anyone expressed hate. But if B&K bear no responsibility whatsoever in the choices and actions they took which resulted in immense grief, anguish, fright and not to overlook the senseless (accused) murder of three innocent victims - if the general public condones their alleged acts by blaming it on other circumstances, what kind of message does that send to others in a similar situation who are presently struggling to rise above the same type of adversity? Nobody shows sympathy toward them for not committing murder or for not creating turmoil. Instead they’re going quietly about their lives doing the right thing by striving to overcome without yearning for the glory of becoming headline news as a result of despicable, cowardly behaviour. JMO

I wouldn't say the discussion is about "blaming it on other circumstances". It's about finding the factors that together push someone to do something like this. ONE factor may be the family life of at least one of the perpetrators. Obviously a host of things have to go wrong in your life to get to the point where you're killing people. Many people go through something like this. What else has to be going on? What is the human breaking point?

The end goal in talking about it is not to absolve them of blame. It's not to make a plan to try to eliminate all of the negatives in life. It's just to understand what makes the perfect storm.

Understanding why someone did something is not the same as forgiving them. Just because you you can see a murderer's worldview doesn't mean you agree with it.

 

[Trooper]

I wouldn't say the discussion is about "blaming it on other circumstances". It's about finding the factors that together push someone to do something like this. ONE factor may be the family life of at least one of the perpetrators. Obviously a host of things have to go wrong in your life to get to the point where you're killing people. Many people go through something like this. What else has to be going on? What is the human breaking point?

The end goal in talking about it is not to absolve them of blame. It's not to make a plan to try to eliminate all of the negatives in life. It's just to understand what makes the perfect storm.

Understanding why someone did something is not the same as forgiving them. Just because you you can see a murderer's worldview doesn't mean you agree with it.

what's wrong with 'blaming' the perpetrator?

One kid's perfect storm maybe another kids welcomed challenge. It is truly the height of optimism to imagine that the 'perfect storm' that results in two young men, recent employees of Walmart but finding that difficult after 5 weeks, suddenly becoming murderers.

And murdering in company. This is a really significant factor. Most murders are conducted on a one to one basis, not very often does one actually want a witness to murder, yet , significantly, Kam and Bry did, they wanted to see each other do murder. Explain that 'perfect storm' .

'Understanding' them is hardly the stuff for amateurs, professionals don't even come close to trying, because the infinity of factors are , by definition, infinite. No end to the permutations.

One thing is for sure, Kam and Bryer certainly understood their place in the world they inhabited by their method of departing it. And I happen to agree with their conclusion , in regard to that measurement.

But we can try and understand why people don't do it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok, whatever. As a woman, I think it would have been extremely irresponsible and dangerous for the RCMP to not report it as a sexual assault to the public when they were on the loose. There would be no reason for hiding that. Therefore I would be very surprised if it comes out that it was.

I’m not understanding the significance of police reporting if it was determined a sexual assault occurred given C was murdered and the extent of injuries that caused her death have not been released. This was not a case of a sexual deviant targeting lone females - it was of two armed and very dangerous suspects wanted for the murders of one female and two males.

 

[otto]

This is my impression, too. I think that's why there were no more crimes--they didn't find anybody else alone on an isolated stretch of road.

The third murder seems to be a direct result of the suspects needing a car. It looks like they stole ID and eliminated witnesses to buy time.

What we don't know is what they wanted from the tourists, where they also stole ID and eliminated witnesses. That's the piece that doesn't make sense, unless the suspects assumed that the van was abandoned and were in the process of breaking in when they were caught - so they decided to eliminate the witnesses.

 

[Zella]

The third murder seems to be a direct result of the suspects needing a car. It looks like they stole ID and eliminated witnesses to buy time.

What we don't know is what they wanted from the tourists, where they also stole ID and eliminated witnesses. That's the piece that doesn't make sense, unless the suspects assumed that the van was abandoned and were in the process of breaking in when they were caught - so they decided to eliminate the witnesses.

Yes, I think LD was killed for the car, but I still don't think they would have attempted it if had not been a remote stretch of road, possibly where he was already pulled over, and if he had not been alone. KM and BS don't strike me as brazen carjackers.