Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[NJSleuth91]

Personally I don't believe the Ritalin story. It's too cartoonish to imagine BS with a Nazi armband snorting Ritalin off a Nazi replica knife. The kid that gave that account made those claims without a parent present and without giving their identity so that his wild story would not come back on him.

For all we know BS only pulled a picture of the armband off of Pinterest and sent it around for larks. There's no proof he actually owned it. I am waiting for the RCMP to announce that they actually found paraphernalia in BS's family's houses before I believe any of that. The story is just too over the top.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I believe sources that are quoted in MSM unless there's actual evidence that they were lying. And I think that story was totally consistent with Bryer's known behavior (especially because he liked to troll people and weird them out on purpose).

 

[FactFinder3000]

It's actually comical just how much those two look like shoplifters in that surveillance video.

First we have the jacket. Kam has bare arms and a light T-shirt, and behind him follows Bryer, overdressed, wearing a shirt and jacket over top. A very large jacket. Classic sign of a shoplifter.

Next we have Bryer fidgeting and walking awkwardly with his arms in front of him. More classic shoplifter signs.

It's claimed they talked to a clerk, yet they're looking all over the place. Why? If they're looking for something, why didn't they ask the clerk where it was? Was this really the perfect time to go browsing in a hardware store?

We have Kam trying his hardest to look casual, with one arm in his pocket. He even appears to stroke his chin at one point, like he's thinking about a purchase. But he never slows down.

Then we have the actual exit. Kam says something to the clerk with his back to her. Normally you would stop and turn around if you wanted to say something to somebody. Make eye contact. But Kam is in too big a rush to get out of there. Bryer, as he goes through the door, turns his head to the side and looks at the floor. Why? He appears to be using his peripheral vision to determine, without actually looking back, whether or not he's being followed out. Lack of eye contact is another sign of a shoplifter.

And finally, we are told they made purchases, yet clearly they made no purchase in this video. I doubt they did make a purchase at this store, but if they did, then going in and out multiple times is yet another sign of a shoplifter.

 

[Zella]

I'm sure their faces in the video would have shown the results of exposure to insects.

SBM I've wondered about that ever since a video was mentioned. They might have been unrecognizable-looking. MOO

 

[Zella]

He even appears to stroke his chin at one point, like he's thinking about a purchase. But he never slows down.

The part where he strokes his chin has always cracked me up because, yeah, he doesn't slacken his pace at all while he's doing that and it seems so random. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I read an account by an entymologist (see linked article) that said a thick mosquito swarm could drain a human of HALF of their blood in two hours.
Opinion: Mosquitoes are a Canadian icon – and a growing public health risk

I was going to say that's NUTS (human has 5L blood on average, mosquito sucks 0.001 to 0.01 ml of blood per bite) but if you do the math, it's absolutely possible.

 

[Moriarty]

For all we know BS only pulled a picture of the armband off of Pinterest and sent it around for larks. There's no proof he actually owned it. I am waiting for the RCMP to announce that they actually found paraphernalia in BS's family's houses before I believe any of that. The story is just too over the top.

SBM
No I agree with regards to the Nazi stuff...there has been some over-the-top discussion of the supposed Nazi connection in the media.

AS did say that Bryer took him to the army surplus store to show him the armband and the knife, but AS stated he was disgusted and pulled Bryer out of the store. The store owner did say that two teens came in and bought one of the knives...but there hasn't been direct evidence that Bryer ever did own it beyond the photos he sent that kid, which as you say, he may have taken from online or just took a photo himself while in the store.

Port Alberni murder suspect not a neo-Nazi, is more fascinated by Russia, dad says

 

[cherrytree9]

The part where he strokes his chin has always cracked me up because, yeah, he doesn't slacken his pace at all while he's doing that and it seems so random. MOO

I assumed he was just scratching his face?

 

[Zella]

I assumed he was just scratching his face?

It's possible, but it doesn't seem like he's moving his hand when it's at his face. His gesture reminds me of a lot of male friends of mine who have facial hair and will stroke their chin hair when they're pondering something. MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

SBM
No I agree with regards to the Nazi stuff...there has been some over-the-top discussion of the supposed Nazi connection in the media.

AS did say that Bryer took him to the army surplus store to show him the armband and the knife, but AS stated he was disgusted and pulled Bryer out of the store. The store owner did say that two teens came in and bought one of the knives...but there hasn't been direct evidence that Bryer ever did own it beyond the photos he sent that kid, which as you say, he may have taken from online or just took a photo himself while in the store.

Port Alberni murder suspect not a neo-Nazi, is more fascinated by Russia, dad says

You're right, there have been several accounts about the Nazi stuff coming from different directions (AS, online friends, real-life friends)

However there is only one account of Ritalin use. I'd think if he was a heavy substance user that there would be more accounts of that. That's why I am taking the Ritalin story with a grain of salt.

There is a picture of BS with a bottle and an account that they asked about alcohol in one town, but I don't think that's any different from the activities of any other kid that age.

I don't feel that these two were hard core substance abusers as some claim.

 

[sandbar]

FWIW, I think it's quite possible that K&B were into Nazi merch, without understanding what Nazis stand for. In elementary schools I've worked in, I've seen black students doodling swastikas on their own notebooks. When I asked if they knew that if Nazi's had their way the black students would be exterminated, they were horrified. I've had similar conversations with FN youth.

I wonder: IF B&K had LDs, if they knew the Nazis would think them inferior and exterminate them...I doubt it, that part of hate, the part that hits home, is just not that cool.

ETA clarity

 

[Zella]

FWIW, I think it's quite possible that K&B were into Nazi merch, without understanding what what Nazis stand for. In elementary schools I've worked in, I've seen black students doodling swastikas on their own notebooks. When I asked if they knew that if Nazi's had their way the black students would be exterminated, they were horrified. I've had similar conversations with FN youth.

I wonder: IF B&K had LDs, if they knew the Nazis would think them inferior and exterminate them...I doubt it, that part of hate, the part that hits home, is just not that cool.

Yeah I've found Bryer's interest in Nazism interesting because he had Ukrainian heritage. Regardless of whether he thought he was Russian or Ukrainian, he would have been considered Slavic and inferior, to Nazis. Just based on Kam's surname, I assume his heritage was at least Scottish in part.

I think some of Bryer's expressed interest in Nazis was that he liked being shocking. I found it interesting one of his more right-wing friends on Steam said he didn't think that he and Bryer agreed politically because he was under the impression Bryer was a communist (Dark Portrait Emerging of Teenage BC Murder Suspect). MOO

 

[SovereignSnake]

LOL to the Matt Foley reference. Yes, a gun in the waistband would definitely explain that fiddling. Now that I think about it, he fiddled alot with his shirt/jacket in the Co-op video. Hmmmm, just something else for me to think about. But a gun in the waistband means a handgun then. I kept thinking they had rifles, but we really don't know for sure. JMO

I keep thinking about this as well. Was it two rifles, two handguns or one of each? Then I got to speculating, where was this/these rifle(s) when they were stopped at the checkpoint? Then thought, if there was a rifle it could have been placed in the RAV's hidden cargo compartments. Here's the thing though, if I'm reading these measurements correctly one compartment is 36 inches long and the other is 43 inches long. I look at this video and it doesn't appear a rifle will feet even in the bigger of the two compartments. I measured my Dad's Mauser 308 and it's just shy of 47 inches long. It's also entirely possible Kam and Bryer kept it under a blanket or in a sleeping bag. I also wanted to mention in addition to the strange wording at the checkpoint stop, the officer used the word "boxes" but I think he meant like "totes" like rubber maid containers. I swear there was another article that said "plastic containers." I just can't imagine going camping with any cardboard boxes because you know it's going to get wet lest you leave it in the vehicle.

2011 Toyota RAV4

 

[NJSleuth91]

You're right, there have been several accounts about the Nazi stuff coming from different directions (AS, online friends, real-life friends)

However there is only one account of Ritalin use. I'd think if he was a heavy substance user that there would be more accounts of that. That's why I am taking the Ritalin story with a grain of salt.

There is a picture of BS with a bottle and an account that they asked about alcohol in one town, but I don't think that's any different from the activities of any other kid that age.

I don't feel that these two were hard core substance abusers as some claim.

They don't have to be "hard core substance abusers" to use drugs on occasion, recreationally. Many people who use drugs are not addicts and don't use them frequently.

FWIW, I think it's quite possible that K&B were into Nazi merch, without understanding what Nazis stand for. In elementary schools I've worked in, I've seen black students doodling swastikas on their own notebooks. When I asked if they knew that if Nazi's had their way the black students would be exterminated, they were horrified. I've had similar conversations with FN youth.

I wonder: IF B&K had LDs, if they knew the Nazis would think them inferior and exterminate them...I doubt it, that part of hate, the part that hits home, is just not that cool.

ETA clarity

I feel like a lot of these people who are into racist stuff, are very logically inconsistent. A lot of them even have friends of other races. Plus, Bryer would not be considered part of the "master race" due to his ancestry. And I think a lot of it was trying to be edgy, also.

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply>
The main point is that they would have to have approached the van armed, and who the heck does that in Canada? I mean, really. I think they approached with intent to use the gun.

It's counter-intuitive that they killed by "panic" and then, instead of getting the heck out of there, went and stole wallets. You'd think they would want nothing more to do with the crime scene if they were indeed "in panic/fear/stress", and would not stop to pillage the van and leave prints and DNA.

I agree, armed, approaching a van parked on the side of the road in the middle of the night suggests they were anticipating sleeping occupants to be inside. It’s the victims who suffered panic/fear/stress not the perpetrators! If murder wasn’t in their realm of possibilities, they had the opportunity to order L&C out of the van by gunpoint, taking whatever they wanted, driving away and leaving them alive.

After the murders, they had at least 4 days think about their next steps and maybe just hightail it back home, feigning disappointment over the lack of jobs up north. Or at that point if remorse was a factor at play at all they could’ve confessed or ended their lives then.

But nobody knew they were killers at that point in time. Maybe they were becoming antsy because police hadn’t figured it out yet? Because it was the murder of LD that drew attention to them, by burning their truck and camper close to his body on the side of the road. As LD was noted to be a pacifist, after they stole his vehicle they could’ve left him stranded walking down the side of the highway. No way was his murder a result of fear or panic a second time. The 2nd degree murder charges filed earlier indicates there is evidence of intent.

Then came the flight from police after the two left their calling card - the torched truck and camper. I think there’s a real possibility they intentionally instigated the manhunt and it was involved in their motive to murder innocent people on the onset. “A catch us if you can” setup.

Had the RCMP been unsuccessful in learning their whereabouts at almost a dead end road in Northern Manitoba and had they not employed significant resources including involvement of the military, does anyone really believe the two would’ve been found dead at that remote location, on the banks of the Nelson River? I don’t think so, they died by suicide to avoid capture because they never intended to be voluntarily arrested, exactly as AS had predicted. It really seems to me to have been a suicide mission from the onset, but only if they lost “the game”, as they obviously placed no more value on the lives of others than they did their own.

JMO

 

[Kubirai]

SBM
No I agree with regards to the Nazi stuff...there has been some over-the-top discussion of the supposed Nazi connection in the media.
...
Port Alberni murder suspect not a neo-Nazi, is more fascinated by Russia, dad says

Bellingcat has a thorough investigation of Tarrant manifesto propagation by Fascist groups including Azov Battalion.

Bryer's dad was mistaken about the real reason for the Russian fascination. It was because of Azov Battalion. RCMP must determine how Bryer came across this vile Nazi group and what discussions took place.

The missing Army reservist, suspended for participating in a similar Nazi group, is from Manitoba. There could be a connection.

 

[Gina20]

There are some shoes to walk in yet, as we track the suspects to their deaths.

If you're an rcmp officer, armed to the gills, then you've been warned that these suspects are determined to go down 'guns blazing', and without a doubt you are primed to shoot on site.

If you're a local resident, then the impulse to protect your own people must be strong. You're used to policing yourselves, familiar with the local bush and hunting down and shooting bear, so its not much of a stretch to imagine a local hero or two would have set out to administer some self preservation.

Any of these players would have good reason to shoot the suspects, given the hysteria from the media warnings and weight of police/army activity. Suicide seems most likely given a sudden realization of the hopelessly dire situation they have somehow stumbled into - they pretty much cannot surrender (for driving a stolen vehicle) without being fired upon. Yet, some loose ends stretch credibility for this convenient theory to be foolproof.

The clothing dumped on the riverside, makes zero sense from a fugitive survival standpoint. From an evidence/plant point of view, they allowed easy tracking to the corpses, a km away. Rcmp also knew of the bodies' location long before announcing the find - its why those funky, wheelie hearsy vehicles were brought in only to find it would require boats to bring them out.

The suicide weapon/s will be a determining factor to ensure these suspects fit the crimes they've been accused of committing. Here again, we must suspend logic if we're to accept this as an only truth. Weren't they supposed to have survived some rapids on a bent piece of aluminum? And, swim back to the exact spot where they stored their guns to keep dry?

Stranger things have happened, but I just can't, despite all our interesting discussion, see these couple of tinhorns possessing enough devious smarts to be credited with any of these horrors. And, in fact, if looking for glory, then an alcohol check-stop shoot-out would have been the place.
True evil just couldn't or wouldn't have let that opportunity pass.

Two things from this and your previous post. Yes, it is possible that someone else lit the Rav4 on fire. If there is a local firebug or two, then the local community likely knows who that is, and their techniques and targets.

Secondly, the local First Nations people in the Gillam area had organized their own patrols (these were not the Bear Clan members). I would think that those would be armed patrols.

The store workers in Dease Lake mentioned sleeping with weapons at their side.

The fellow from Jade City said that if the two decided to return, they wouldn't make it out alive. He said he had a bad feeling about them when they came into the store, and checked his weapon in the back, in contrast to the woman who said earlier that they were just like any other customers, and she didn't pay much notice.

The publicity did seem to inflame feelings.

 

[SnooperDuper]

They don't have to be "hard core substance abusers" to use drugs on occasion, recreationally. Many people who use drugs are not addicts and don't use them frequently.

I think if they were occasional users they were probably not under the influence during this spree. For regular users, "high" becomes normal and they can operate confidently (if crazily) under the influence. For occasional users, being high just makes everything more difficult, if not just not possible.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

Some members need to dial down on the attitude. Personalizing and rudeness are not tolerated at WS. When someone says they have not seen a link to something, answers along the lines of “google is your friend” are rude. Either extend the common courtesy of finding the link and providing it or move on without making an unfriendly or disrespectful comment.

Please don’t try to control the discussion. If you think a certain line of discussion is silly or you are bored with a certain part of the discussion, just scroll and roll rather than try to make others feel what they are discussing is not important. Or, you can also Report on the discussion and let Mods review it. When members themselves try to moderate a thread, it makes for hard feelings.

Post accordingly.

 

[KR72]

SBM

Plus, Bryer would not be considered part of the "master race" due to his ancestry. And I think a lot of it was trying to be edgy, also.

I think he was into whatever he considered alt, but I don't think his particular ancestry would matter. Many neo Nazis types these days don't have any German heritage whatsoever, so I don't think him having Ukrainian heritage would have been a conflict in his mind IF he was serious about the Nazi crap.

SBM

I wonder: IF B&K had LDs, if they knew the Nazis would think them inferior and exterminate them...I doubt it, that part of hate, the part that hits home, is just not that cool.

I don't think any of the current Neo Nazi/white supremacist types are that logical though. Have you seen what some of them look like? I'll be polite here and say that they're often really, really poor physical examples of the "master race." The guy in the local news lately who's a recruiter for one of these groups is said to be on the spectrum. These types don't think logically, imo.

Again, not speculating on whether or not BS or KM were serious or not serious about Nazism or any other ideology. Hopefully those questions will be answered in the RCMP report.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I think he was into whatever he considered alt, but I don't think his particular ancestry would matter. Many neo Nazis types these days don't have any German heritage whatsoever, so I don't think him having Ukrainian heritage would have been a conflict in his mind IF he was serious about the Nazi crap.

I don't think any of the current Neo Nazi/white supremacist types are that logical though. Have you seen what some of them look like? They're often really, really poor physical examples of the "master race." The guy in the local news lately who's a recruiter for one of these groups is said to be on the spectrum. These types don't think logically, imo.

Again, not speculating on whether or not BS or KM were serious or not serious about Nazism or any other ideology. Hopefully those questions will be answered in the RCMP report.

Pretty much. There's just not a lot of logical consistency going on there, in that group in general, so it's not really that unusual of a contradiction for Bryer to be into Nazi stuff but also Communist/Russian stuff.

Plus my suspicion is that his interest in these totalitarian regimes was less because of the ideology, and more because of the highly regimented structure and strong sense of identity. Those are things which I suspect he felt were lacking in his own life. JMO.