Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm sure that was present as well. But for example in Columbine, from what I understand, Eric and Dylan both had violent fantasies for years, but it was only after they were arrested for theft, which enraged them both, that they really started planning it. So it's not unprecedented.

Yeah, so a trigger to set some rage in motion, action on it and to bring thoughts to fruition.

I guess when I think of snap, I think of more an instant break from reality in the moment but I think that's more passion.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Yeah, so a trigger to set some rage in motion, action on it and to bring thoughts to fruition.

I guess when I think of snap, I think of more an instant break from reality in the moment but I think that's more passion.

Yes by "snap" I don't necessarily mean a break with reality (although that is still a possibility, I guess?) I mean whatever pushed them over the threshold from being, as far as we know, non-violent, to murdering.

 

[srper2]

I can't see anywhere anything about BS graduating. If he worked to buy a suit for graduation and was then not allowed to graduate, that would be painful. I can't see his pic anywhere here? (But then I couldn't find KM's pic in the link of graduates from last year posted either!)
https://www.albernivalleynews.com/e...190703111742-779fd7f0027ac0c191df31090a2c8955
I also have to wonder if BS did not graduate and this is some of the pain AS was thinking of. I also wonder if BS had called AS on one of their sojourns into Dease Lake and told him they were in trouble and AS had been unable to help, with BS then indicating he was suicidal. This could be why AS was so adamant that his son was in pain and wanted to end it/ would die etc. (add in "blaze of glory" quote etc from 60 minutes interview). AS may have been warned by Police not to say anything, but he let slip more than intended during his interview. MOO

 

[Trooper]

I tend to adhere to the notion that 'snap' in this context is solely the provision of a desperate defence lawyer, it's the kind of thing one pays for to have your barrister shout it out on the steps of the court house to the press.. 'my client had a bit of a snap!'..


The bit that I find most curious is, how did Bryer know that Kam was a committed killer. ? How did Kam know that Bryer was a committed killer. ?

Somewhere on that journey, or long beforehand, they had managed to persuade each other they were serious and single minded killers under all and any circumstances, no backing off, no backing away.

Because the murder of Miss Deese and Mr Fowler had to start somewhere. One of them had to convey to the other that these two were the target. The other had to agree. Killing two total strangers and then tootling off and killing again shows tremendous confidence, in oneself and in each other, almost supranatual confidence. A complete lack of 'snap' in that context.

 

[MsBetsy]

"Exactly how much time passed between the first murder and the next? "

quote from Betsy's post.

3 days and I think around 400 klms. Plenty of time to cool down, then again, plenty of time to ratchet up the intent.

I am certain they both fantasized a lot, about power, about leadership, about revenge, about inflicting pain and humiliation and terror on people, and , as it turns out, Bryer was pretty confident about threatening to behead a young women, with enough force and believability about performing that act, in a manner quite insouciant and knowing full well the horror that would produce in a young woman. She didn't forget it, and it's reasonable to assume she wasn't the only one he informed of the potentially tortuous acts he intended to perpetrate upon them. For what? I don't know, but it was out of all proportion, obviously.

And beheading. Where did he get that from? . it isn't in Canadian mythology as far as I can tell.

So .. it is reasonable to assume that Kam wasn't backwards in this as well, and the reasonable assumption rests on the bloody bodies of Mr Fowler and Miss Deese discarded in full view on the highway. That didn't come from nothing. And they were the closest of friends. They shared everything, obviously.

I can't imagine the terror the victims must have felt.
If they had fantasized about murder, it must have met with their expectations if they went on to to repeat their actions three days later. Imo

 

[FactFinder3000]

I can't see anywhere anything about BS graduating. If he worked to buy a suit for graduation and was then not allowed to graduate, that would be painful. I can't see his pic anywhere here? (But then I couldn't find KM's pic in the link of graduates from last year posted either!)
https://www.albernivalleynews.com/e...190703111742-779fd7f0027ac0c191df31090a2c8955
I also have to wonder if BS did not graduate and this is some of the pain AS was thinking of. I also wonder if BS had called AS on one of their sojourns into Dease Lake and told him they were in trouble and AS had been unable to help, with BS then indicating he was suicidal. This could be why AS was so adamant that his son was in pain and wanted to end it/ would die etc. (add in "blaze of glory etc.). AS may have been warned by Police not to say anything, but he let slip during his interview. MOO

I've been wondering if AS wasn't projecting his own thoughts and feelings onto BS. We can't really discuss this too much, but I think it would make a lot of sense.

As for proof of BS graduation, we have the owner of a hotel saying he saw Bryer wearing his suit on graduation day (here). But AS specifically told us that BS did not graduate. So there's something up there and I think it's possible that Bryer 'graduated' in that he completed his individual education plan, and thus received a school completion certificate, but he did not complete grade 12 and officially graduate.

 

[srper2]

Yes by "snap" I don't necessarily mean a break with reality (although that is still a possibility, I guess?) I mean whatever pushed them over the threshold from being, as far as we know, non-violent, to murdering.

Yes, it is a big jump. It would take a lot of rage, tenacity and a truly cold heart to see a van on the side of the road at night, pull over, terrify/order the occupants out, then shoot and kill them (or shoot them in the van then dump their bodies outside for the world to see), for no particular reason too, the van was old, they didn't have anything worth stealing, I would think a robber would not expect to get much. I still cannot imagine KMand BS having the nerve to attack a van at night not knowing who was inside! I often feel that whoever attacked LF and CD were confident, hardened criminals. The entire van incident reminds me more of a hardened murderer/redneck gang/drug shooting, mistaken identity etc. But also, how cold and cruel is it to murder an old man and drive off in his vehicle. Even if they did run him over, or some other accident, their actions were not in the least caring, they didn't try to get help or tell anyone what happened.

 

[Trooper]

I can't imagine the terror the victims must have felt.
If they had fantasized about murder, it must have met with their expectations if they went on to to repeat their actions three days later. Imo

I think their expectation about their fantasy was far outweighed by the reality. It certainly didn't inhibit them, or make them shy off... or even disgust and terrify them, not a bit of it.

But somehow, they must have known this about each other, that they could rely on each other in this matter, without any doubt at all. I find that immensely curious, and a strong pointer to their level of lack of human empathy. They may have been able to mimic human empathy back in Port Alberni for quite some time, but it must have got harder and harder to maintain , hence the launch off into the blue north where the pretence could be dropped for periods of time, perhaps long periods of time.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes by "snap" I don't necessarily mean a break with reality (although that is still a possibility, I guess?) I mean whatever pushed them over the threshold from being, as far as we know, non-violent, to murdering.

A psychotic episode could cause someone to suddenly commit murder, but the chances of it happening to two people at once are pretty low. Unless they took some type of drug, maybe.

Many times criminals escalate from less violent acts to murder, but they were both young and it's possible that they decided to make their first and last violent act a big one.

They may have thought about it or talked about it for a long time.
I wouldn't be surprised if either had been aggressive before though, or if there are school records of behavior that might indicate aggression or mental health issues. Imo

 

[NJSleuth91]

It would take a lot of rage, tenacity and a truly cold heart to see a van on the side of the road at night, pull over, terrify/order the occupants out, then shoot and kill them (or shoot them in the van then dump their bodies outside for the world to see), for no particular reason too, the van was old, they didn't have anything worth stealing, I would think a robber would not expect to get much. I still cannot imagine KMand BS having the nerve to attack a van at night not knowing who was inside! I feel that whoever attacked LF and CD were confident, hardened criminals. The entire van incident reminds me more of a hardened murderer/redneck gang/drug shooting, mistaken identity etc. But also, how cold and cruel is it to murder an old man and drive off in his vehicle. Even if they did run him over, or some other accident, their actions were not in the least caring, they didn't try to get help or tell anyone what happened.

So my understanding is, you don't think Kam and Bryer killed Lucas and Chynna?

In any case we don't know what happened or what the sequence of events was. It could have been a thrill killing, either planned or unplanned. It could have been a robbery gone wrong. It could have been Moriarty's theory, they thought the van might be abandoned and took guns just in case and got startled (and then eliminated the witness). They could have had an altercation with Lucas and Chynna either beforehand or at the time of the murders, and went into a rage and escalated it. They could have been intoxicated at the time which lowered their inhibitions. There are many possibilities which have not been ruled out. And many of these possibilities are very common when it comes to sudden criminality. Whatever it was, they would be far from the first people on earth with no known history of criminal or violent actions, to turn violent, even against strangers.

Also technically I don't think they could have gotten help, as they were miles from any civilization. I do still wonder why Professor Dyck's murder was only charged as second degree though. One theory I have is that they did run him over accidentally during the robbery. That would also explain why they had to burn their car instead of just abandoning it somewhere where it wouldn't be found for a while, because there would be blood on it and so on. But who knows. But there had to be some reason it was charged as second degree and not first.

A psychotic episode could cause someone to suddenly commit murder, but the chances of it happening to two people at once are pretty low. Unless they took some type of drug, maybe.

Many times criminals escalate from less violent acts to murder, but they were both young and it's possible that they decided to make their first and last violent act a big one.

They may have thought about it or talked about it for a long time.
I wouldn't be surprised if either had been aggressive before though, or if there are school records of behavior that might indicate aggression or mental health issues. Imo

Well, there is a psychological phenomenon called "folie a deux," a shared delusion between two people, generally with a pre-existing co-dependent relationship. It's rare, but so far we don't have enough evidence to rule it out. And, yes, there is also the possibility of drug induced psychosis. Personally I don't think they were psychotic, but who knows. There are a lot of possibilities that haven't been ruled out.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Yes, it is a big jump. It would take a lot of rage, tenacity and a truly cold heart to see a van on the side of the road at night, pull over, terrify/order the occupants out, then shoot and kill them (or shoot them in the van then dump their bodies outside for the world to see), for no particular reason too, the van was old, they didn't have anything worth stealing, I would think a robber would not expect to get much. I still cannot imagine KMand BS having the nerve to attack a van at night not knowing who was inside! I often feel that whoever attacked LF and CD were confident, hardened criminals. The entire van incident reminds me more of a hardened murderer/redneck gang/drug shooting, mistaken identity etc. But also, how cold and cruel is it to murder an old man and drive off in his vehicle. Even if they did run him over, or some other accident, their actions were not in the least caring, they didn't try to get help or tell anyone what happened.

There are just so many possible scenarios. Maybe they left Port Alberni with the intent to kidnap a female and the victim would not cooperate. Maybe they were interrupted just taking a purse, but then decided to kill the witness. Maybe they just wanted to kill someone and see what it felt like. So many possibilities.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that for someone like Bryer, whose friends left him one by one, who likely had no idea how to get himself a girlfriend; he looks around at everybody else who has friends, at everybody else who has a boy/girlfriend, and it can build a great deal of anger and resentment.

As for courage, there's this: Why Alcohol Makes You Feel Invincible

 

[MsBetsy]

I tend to adhere to the notion that 'snap' in this context is solely the provision of a desperate defence lawyer, it's the kind of thing one pays for to have your barrister shout it out on the steps of the court house to the press.. 'my client had a bit of a snap!'..


The bit that I find most curious is, how did Bryer know that Kam was a committed killer. ? How did Kam know that Bryer was a committed killer. ?

Somewhere on that journey, or long beforehand, they had managed to persuade each other they were serious and single minded killers under all and any circumstances, no backing off, no backing away.

Because the murder of Miss Deese and Mr Fowler had to start somewhere. One of them had to convey to the other that these two were the target. The other had to agree. Killing two total strangers and then tootling off and killing again shows tremendous confidence, in oneself and in each other, almost supranatual confidence. A complete lack of 'snap' in that context.

Yes, there had to be a certain level of planning involved.
It was obviously premeditated, but I wonder just how long they thought about it and at what point they decided to go through with it. Imo

 

[Trooper]

A psychotic episode could cause someone to suddenly commit murder, but the chances of it happening to two people at once are pretty low. Unless they took some type of drug, maybe.

Many times criminals escalate from less violent acts to murder, but they were both young and it's possible that they decided to make their first and last violent act a big one.

They may have thought about it or talked about it for a long time.
I wouldn't be surprised if either had been aggressive before though, or if there are school records of behavior that might indicate aggression or mental health issues. Imo

It isn't unusual for everyone to be surprised at who suddenly starts killing people. Maybe both of them wet their beds up until a very late age, 9 or even 11 , , one of the early signs, when allied with cruelty to animals, particularly small animals and particularly pets of their own and of others, and a tendency to set fires.. little fires and big'un's…. these are things no one talks about and are done in secret, and I doubt if that would now ever be made public about Kam and Bry at this stage of the game. Maybe no one person saw all three things, …

 

[Trooper]

'I do still wonder why Professor Dyck's murder was only charged as second degree though. One theory I have is that they did run him over accidentally during the robbery. That would also explain why they had to burn their car instead of just abandoning it somewhere where it wouldn't be found for a while, because there would be blood on it and so on. But who knows. But there had to be some reason it was charged as second degree and not first.'

way back it was pretty much settled that the reason for the charge of 2nd degree was , it is easy to up grade that, and not so easy to downgrade it, and at that time, the RCMP fully expected to be able to interrogate K and B, and it didn't need a charge in the 1st degree to set off the program of the huge search that got underway with the trigger being a charge of 2nd degree.,

The RCMP would have been hoping to be able to charge the person who pulled the trigger after interrogation, no doubt, and it was policy to begin , before being able to hear each boys story, to kick off with the lower charge. Lower in the sense of it still attracted a hefty life sentence for murder, it wasn't manslaughter or neglectful death, it was m.u.r.d.e.r.

 

[Iwondertoo]

It seems very weird that a school would take faked graduation pictures several months or a year before students graduate. I have never heard of this happening anywhere before. The picture would be completely irrelevant to the occasion it was supposed to mark?

It's a graduation portrait, not a picture of the moment.

It's commonly done so the photos of the grad class in the school yearbook can have them wearing a graduation gown. It takes too long to produce the yearbook to take the photos at grad.

I agree.

From my experience 5 years ago, the pictures are taken say Jan. or Feb., proofs are sent out to the graduating students in March and then the grads pick their choice of pose and what extra portraits they want to order. They can also ask for retouches if they wish (blur out a zit for example.) Final portraits are sent to the graduating student (and most likely the school too so they can use them in their yearbook) in April-May.

As to how the portrait was taken, when my kids graduated, they filled out a form ahead of time saying what background they wanted and then when the time came for them to go to the gym for their portraits, just before the pic, they put on a grad gown and sat in front of the background of their choice. The photographer can process these grad photos very quickly.

As an aside and hopefully it's not too off topic but when my kids went to school in B.C., whether a student and his parents ordered a portrait package from grade one to 12, all students were photographed.

In return for the photographer being able to offer portraits to the kids, the photographer was obliged to provide the school with a photo of each child with the same background. This was kept in case the child ever went missing.

I found this out when volunteering in the school office one day for the "call home" program (if the school had an absent student and a parent hadn't called in and left a message on a designated phone number to let the school know they were safe at home, we would call to make sure the child had not gone missing on the way to school.)

I'm pretty sure the background in the Port Alberni grad portraits is just a drop sheet and doesn't account for the time of year the photo was taken. The fact that the background for most is an outside setting could just be the generic shot taken of all students to pass on to the school.

JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

It isn't unusual for everyone to be surprised at who suddenly starts killing people. Maybe both of them wet their beds up until a very late age, 9 or even 11 , , one of the early signs, when allied with cruelty to animals, particularly small animals and particularly pets of their own and of others, and a tendency to set fires.. little fires and big'un's…. these are things no one talks about and are done in secret, and I doubt if that would now ever be made public about Kam and Bry at this stage of the game. Maybe no one person saw all three things, …

I guess it never surprises me because there have been so many others who are older who have suddenly committed brutal murders with no evidence of a violent past.
And each time there are always people who say, he was polite, he was quiet, or he was shy.
Or, like Mollie Tibbets killer, "he seemed like a very nice guy."
And every time it turns out that nobody could imagine they would do something like that. Until they hear all the evidence. Imo

 

[Trooper]

I guess it never surprises me because there have been so many others who are older who have suddenly committed brutal murders with no evidence of a violent past.
And each time there are always people who say, he was polite, he was quiet, or he was shy.
Or, like Mollie Tibbets killer, "he seemed like a very nice guy."
And every time it turns out that nobody could imagine they would do something like that. Until they hear all the evidence. Imo

Precisely!

 

[srper2]

So my understanding is, you don't think Kam and Bryer killed Lucas and Chynna?

(SBM)
Since they were never charged, were suspects and there has been no evidence produced, I cannot make the assumption BS and KM killed LF and CD. You have covered most of the ideas people have put forward over the past few weeks. As BS and KM were driving LD's car, I have to assume they killed him, or knew he was injured or dead when they took it. I had been on track with Moriaty's thoughts re: they thought the van was abandoned, but then decided that the crime scene didn't support this with the small amount of info I could access. I doubt they would shoot to death 2 people who startled them, possibly in the dark, far more likely to run for it and drive off, expecting to be shot at themselves. I also doubt they would have killed CD and LF because they had some conflict, as if it occurred anywhere public, people probably would have remembered and reported this. I think that the mystery man with the redneck (my word of the day) old jeep arguing with CD and LF was overlooked and now it is probably too late for LE to follow up with any success. I believe LE is hoping we all just forget anybody ever reported seeing him.

 

[srper2]

DBM- Double post

 

[Trooper]

I guess it never surprises me because there have been so many others who are older who have suddenly committed brutal murders with no evidence of a violent past.
And each time there are always people who say, he was polite, he was quiet, or he was shy.
Or, like Mollie Tibbets killer, "he seemed like a very nice guy."
And every time it turns out that nobody could imagine they would do something like that. Until they hear all the evidence. Imo

Everyone loved Sebastian Burns... everyone thought Atif Raffay was the bees knees. Both were adored by their family and friends. Sebastians sister still cant believe her brother could murder in cold blood, yet.. there it is. Sebastian admitting it, to Mr Big. Ditto, Raffay. Even Sebastian thought he was damn near perfect, a hell of a nice guy, just ask anyone! and tried to run his own defence at trial. Big mistake. ..