Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[Moriarty]

Thought I'd follow on from when the rav4 was found burning. Looking for a time of the suicides, as always, it seems to pose more questions than answers.

From an official rcmp statement, long before the bodies were discovered:
Statement from the Assistant Commissioner Jane MacLatchy on the reduction of resources deployed in the Gillam area | Royal Canadian Mounted Police
clipped:
On the afternoon of July 23rd, the Manitoba RCMP became aware that two murder suspects from BC could be in our Province. An RCMP plane with infrared capabilities was also deployed and conducted an aerial search of the area that same evening.

This is awkward. It would be natural to begin the infra-red search by flying over the vehicle site, yet no readings were reported. Surely investigators would have tried this more than one time and at different times of the day/night? The two suspects couldn't have trekked very far in such terrain by the evening of the first plane deployment. So, were they already dead by then?

That is interesting, and it could perhaps help narrow down the possible time of death.

The actual press release has some sentences between the ones you quoted above which I think sort of elides some time. Given this press release and what we already know timeline-wise, the infrared capable plane was there either 24-hours or 48-hours after the Rav4 was found burning on the evening of July 22. They could have gotten 8 kms away in that time. Were they dead within that period? Hopefully more details will emerge with a final report with a more concrete timeline.

 

[Jan424]

A big reason why I suspect this was unplanned, and possibly a robbery or altercation gone wrong, is because nearly all the opinions I've seen from people who either have worked with troubled teenagers or have a degree in criminology, have been along those lines. JMO.

This could very well be the case. I’ve mentioned before I go back and forth on whether I think it was planned or not. It was either a) planned, b) a robbery/altercation gone very wrong, or c) they started out with some “ loose” idea in their head, especially since they brought two guns. This last scenario I’d still consider planned. I think there are valid reasons pointing to and away from both. Regardless, Kam and Bryer were on the same page, the same path. And if it wasn’t planned, they sure fell into a groove fairly quickly. If I were on a camping road trip with a friend, I’d be stunned and horrified if she wanted to rob someone. If it turned to killing someone, I’d run for the hills as far as I can get from her. The speed in which their road trip turned deadly is what baffles me (among other things to be sure).
All MOO
Oops forgot to add: SBM

 

[Zella]

The speed in which their road trip turned deadly is what baffles me

SBM

This is something I've wondered about, too. It really did escalate very quickly.

 

[Jan424]

When I first saw the pic of BS wearing his suit, it made me sad. I thought he looked genuinely happy and proud. It was nice to see. It's like he had a moment to shine.

And then it all went to hell...

Just thoughts.

JMO

SBM
Yes I also thought he looked very proud in that photo... then they just threw their lives away. Very sad indeed. MOO

 

[NJSleuth91]

I've wondered about their wardrobe too.

BS seems to wear basic clothes without logo's. That could very well be because those clothes are less expensive.

Or maybe he just didn't want any reason to stand out? I wonder. He could have been more comfortable staying in the background. And there's nothing wrong with that, I dress much the same way.

When I first saw the pic of BS wearing his suit, it made me sad. I thought he looked genuinely happy and proud. It was nice to see. It's like he had a moment to shine.

And then it all went to hell...

Just thoughts.

JMO

I think that was just his style, especially since he seemed to be going for a more clean-cut thing with his hair.

Thought I'd follow on from when the rav4 was found burning. Looking for a time of the suicides, as always, it seems to pose more questions than answers.

From an official rcmp statement, long before the bodies were discovered:
Statement from the Assistant Commissioner Jane MacLatchy on the reduction of resources deployed in the Gillam area | Royal Canadian Mounted Police
clipped:
On the afternoon of July 23rd, the Manitoba RCMP became aware that two murder suspects from BC could be in our Province. An RCMP plane with infrared capabilities was also deployed and conducted an aerial search of the area that same evening.

This is awkward. It would be natural to begin the infra-red search by flying over the vehicle site, yet no readings were reported. Surely investigators would have tried this more than one time and at different times of the day/night? The two suspects couldn't have trekked very far in such terrain by the evening of the first plane deployment. So, were they already dead by then?

I'm going to ask my husband about this. He used to work on these kind of detection systems back in the day.

This could very well be the case. I’ve mentioned before I go back and forth on whether I think it was planned or not. It was either a) planned, b) a robbery/altercation gone very wrong, or c) they started out with some “ loose” idea in their head, especially since they brought two guns. This last scenario I’d still consider planned. I think there are valid reasons pointing to and away from both. Regardless, Kam and Bryer were on the same page, the same path. And if it wasn’t planned, they sure fell into a groove fairly quickly. If I were on a camping road trip with a friend, I’d be stunned and horrified if she wanted to rob someone. If it turned to killing someone, I’d run for the hills as far as I can get from her. The speed in which their road trip turned deadly is what baffles me (among other things to be sure).
All MOO

You'd be surprised what can happen in a short period of time. Three days may not sound like a lot, but it's a very, very long time when all you're doing is driving/camping on remote roads with just one person. A lot of time for conversations to take place, and in the absence of external distractions, to go where they had not gone before. I mean, I've had life-altering conversations that took under an hour, and probably everyone has at some point.

So far, IMO, the only thing indicating it was planned is that they brought two guns. But there are a variety of other reasons why they could have brought them.

 

[Jan424]

SBM

This is something I've wondered about, too. It really did escalate very quickly.

Yes! Within what, 2.5 weeks give or take, 3 people are killed, two vehicles (one stolen) torched, K&B dead by suicide.

 

[FactFinder3000]

That is interesting, and it could perhaps help narrow down the possible time of death.

The actual press release has some sentences between the ones you quoted above which I think sort of elides some time. Given this press release and what we already know timeline-wise, the infrared capable plane was there either 24-hours or 48-hours after the Rav4 was found burning on the evening of July 22. They could have gotten 8 kms away in that time. Were they dead within that period? Hopefully more details will emerge with a final report with a more concrete timeline.

Trees are quite effective at blocking infra-red. That's why they're so great for shielding us from the sun.

And I doubt they searched that area very heavily. They had a lot of ground to cover and it's quite surprising that they were found just 8 km from the vehicle. K and B could have made it to that location in an hour or two, had they used the road. I think most folks assumed they would attempt to put as much distance as possible between the RAV4 and themselves.

It's likely they can get a pretty accurate time of death from the time stamp on the video. It certainly can't be any earlier than what the time stamp is.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Trees are quite effective at blocking infra-red. That's why they're so great for shielding us from the sun.

And I doubt they searched that area very heavily. They had a lot of ground to cover and it's quite surprising that they were found just 8 km from the vehicle. K and B could have made it to that location in an hour or two, had they used the road. I think most folks assumed they would attempt to put as much distance as possible between the RAV4 and themselves.

It's likely they can get a pretty accurate time of death from the time stamp on the video. It certainly can't be any earlier than what the time stamp is.

You took the words right out of my mouth, or.. off the keyboard rather. I was going to add; I was looking at some photos and videos of FLIR and infrared cameras and they're impressive but once you get into heavy forest they begin to become obsolete. When I read the news article about this plane they brought in I initially pictured like this new state of the art camera with Predator style colored heat vision (movie reference) but disappointingly it seems to be just black, white and gray. In fact, in that video I posted above where they found the RAV there's a brief shot from one of the infrared cameras they were using. Very underwhelming if you ask me.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Interesing .... I don't recall reading this before

'Tristan Schneider and the man he was travelling with were pulled over in the Leaf Rapids area — 325 kilometres west of Gillam — on Tuesday night by RCMP on the lookout for McLeod and Schmegelsky.

"It progressed all the way to me and my co-driver lying face down on the gravel, getting handcuffed [and police] asking where our IDs were," Schneider said.

Police released both men once they confirmed they were not McLeod and Schmegelsky.'

Burnt vehicle found in northern Manitoba used by suspects in B.C. homicides: RCMP

 

[KR72]

Not meaning to be contrary here and I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely don't understand the sympathy that the suspects are garnering here at all. I feel sadness for their victims, not for BS or KM.I don't feel sad for BS looking at the pics of him in his suit because not too long after that pic was taken he took the lives of three people and destroyed their families. Even if they didn't kill LF and CD (I think they did) they killed LD, who had a wife, two sons around the same age as the killers, and extended family that needed and loved him.

They had no reason to go out an murder three innocent people, robbery gone wrong or not. I can't imagine what their angle was, I hope it'll come out in the police report, but these two were not "good kids" in any way and imo, they're both equally responsible for what happened. Imo, these two fed off each other and encouraged one another in whatever dark, disturbing fantasies they had, and them knowing/befriending one another, their final acts of violence against innocent people was the culmination of a perfect storm that brewed for years.

They hung with each other for years, they knew what the other was about. I still feel that KM was more of the leader than BS who we know had a very dark quality about him. Obviously it was way, way beyond trying to be edgy. Sure there's edgy, but BS was obviously a million light years past edgy when he and his buddy went out and killed three people.

Others have said that they distanced themselves from BS because they found his words and his behaviour disturbing - that would be the normal thing to do. KM had to have shared at least some of those qualities, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted to associate with BS, and he certainly wouldn't have gone and brought two firearms on an extended road trip with him.

The presence of two guns found with the bodies indicates to me that this was at least partially planned. Canadians generally don't go on road trips or camping armed, and it wasn't hunting season at the time of the murders. If they were concerned about wildlife, they could have purchased some bear spray brought along some noise makers but the fact that they had two weapons with them tells me concerns about wildlife attacks weren't on their minds whatsoever. It would even be a stretch if they brought one gun for protection, but the fact is that they had two - so imo, they had something loosely planned at the very least. If they were so sad, depressed, hard-done-by and whatever, and on a suicide mission as AS suggested, then why didn't they simply drive into the wilderness and off themselves instead of killing three others?

 

[CanadianSleuther]

The presence of two guns found with the bodies indicates to me that this was at least partially planned.

But I still don't understand though if it was planned or partially planned why they didn't think things through. Like I said above, why did they burn their truck. The one thing linking them to one of the victims. That baffles me. Because honestly no one or very few would have even thought two teens would be suspects. They could have washed their truck, dispose of their clothing, and once they were done they could have ditched the weapons anywhere. I just feel like something is missing.

 

[KR72]

But I still don't understand though if it was planned or partially planned why they didn't think things through. Like I said above, why did they burn their truck. The one thing linking them to one of the victims. That baffles me. Because honestly no one or very few would have even thought two teens would be suspects. I just feel like something is missing.

There's always been lots of disorganized killers out there, and they're the ones who usually get caught sooner than highly organized, methodical murderers. As far as burning their truck goes, who knows? Maybe they panicked, got spooked?

 

[MistyWaters]

This could very well be the case. I’ve mentioned before I go back and forth on whether I think it was planned or not. It was either a) planned, b) a robbery/altercation gone very wrong, or c) they started out with some “ loose” idea in their head, especially since they brought two guns. This last scenario I’d still consider planned. I think there are valid reasons pointing to and away from both. Regardless, Kam and Bryer were on the same page, the same path. And if it wasn’t planned, they sure fell into a groove fairly quickly. If I were on a camping road trip with a friend, I’d be stunned and horrified if she wanted to rob someone. If it turned to killing someone, I’d run for the hills as far as I can get from her. The speed in which their road trip turned deadly is what baffles me (among other things to be sure).
All MOO
Oops forgot to add: SBM

The speed in which their road trip turned deadly isn’t really baffling even if one presumes robbery of an abandoned van parked on the side of the road was their initial motive, as it presented them an opportunity to steal.

What kind of low life’s would stoop to pilfer a vehicle in the middle of the night even if it appeared there were no occupants inside? So the owners get a tow the next day only to discover all their valuables and holiday and camping supplies have been stolen, ruining their vacation? Pffft, who cares, right? Who would do that except for some criminal-minded scoundrel without any scruples whatsoever, no regard to the horrible situation the owners would be left in. So it’s not really a huge stretch to imagine the same sort of self-entitled creeps would point a gun and intentionally shoot to kill, to get what they think they deserve just because the innocent, defenceless victims are alone in the middle of nowhere with no means of protecting themselves.

Surely it’s not just an unusual coincidence again another life was taken, that of LD because wanted to steal his car to flee. Two separate times a victim just happens to get murdered by a robbery gone wrong, no way.

IMO without knowing full background history of these two including any mental health issues and prior incidents of harmful, violent or criminal behaviour, what transpired is but a guessing game. Even then there’s never going to be all the answers, much like in any murder case. Even in instances of a murderer fulling confessing, they’re seldom able to provide an explanation about “why” other than their head was messed up at the time.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not meaning to be contrary here and I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely don't understand the sympathy that the suspects are garnering here at all. I feel sadness for their victims, not for BS or KM.I don't feel sad for BS looking at the pics of him in his suit because not too long after that pic was taken he took the lives of three people and destroyed their families. Even if they didn't kill LF and CD (I think they did) they killed LD, who had a wife, two sons around the same age as the killers, and extended family that needed and loved him.

They had no reason to go out an murder three innocent people, robbery gone wrong or not. I can't imagine what their angle was, I hope it'll come out in the police report, but these two were not "good kids" in any way and imo, they're both equally responsible for what happened. Imo, these two fed off each other and encouraged one another in whatever dark, disturbing fantasies they had, and them knowing/befriending one another, their final acts of violence against innocent people was the culmination of a perfect storm that brewed for years.

They hung with each other for years, they knew what the other was about. I still feel that KM was more of the leader than BS who we know had a very dark quality about him. Obviously it was way, way beyond trying to be edgy. Sure there's edgy, but BS was obviously a million light years past edgy when he and his buddy went out and killed three people.

Others have said that they distanced themselves from BS because they found his words and his behaviour disturbing - that would be the normal thing to do. KM had to have shared at least some of those qualities, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted to associate with BS, and he certainly wouldn't have gone and brought two firearms on an extended road trip with him.

The presence of two guns found with the bodies indicates to me that this was at least partially planned. Canadians generally don't go on road trips or camping armed, and it wasn't hunting season at the time of the murders. If they were concerned about wildlife, they could have purchased some bear spray brought along some noise makers but the fact that they had two weapons with them tells me concerns about wildlife attacks weren't on their minds whatsoever. It would even be a stretch if they brought one gun for protection, but the fact is that they had two - so imo, they had something loosely planned at the very least. If they were so sad, depressed, hard-done-by and whatever, and on a suicide mission as AS suggested, then why didn't they simply drive into the wilderness and off themselves instead of killing three others?

I agree, this saga involves accusations of B&K killing three innocent strangers and then fleeing in a stolen vehicle to avoid arrest. When police reveal the evidence which they’ve said with certainty links both of them to the crimes, I think either AS never really knew his son or he ignored red flags because it’s easier to place blame on something else, either his ex wife and/or the “system” which he’s said has wronged them both.

I’m certain the families of the victims won’t be given excuses nor will police attempt to rationalize the murders. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

But I still don't understand though if it was planned or partially planned why they didn't think things through. Like I said above, why did they burn their truck. The one thing linking them to one of the victims. That baffles me. Because honestly no one or very few would have even thought two teens would be suspects. They could have washed their truck, dispose of their clothing, and once they were done they could have ditched the weapons anywhere. I just feel like something is missing.

Yes, even when a murder is premeditated, we are always left wondering why the suspects appeared to have no plans for covering up the crime. Or at least not one that makes any sense.
Even the most experienced murderers say the killer always leaves something of themselves behind.
If the murders were spontaneous, I doubt there was much thought at all in covering in the crime. A lot of adrenaline is probably used up while the crime is carried out leaving little time and energy in thinking of a good plan.
Maybe they burned the truck because they thought it could be easily recognized? If it linked them to the victims than that would explain why they tried to destroy it.
Maybe they watched a lot of movies, and that's how they came up with the idea.
Anyway, even in carefully planned out murders, there always seems to be evidence of poor planning, especially with inexperienced killers. In fact very rarely do they ever seem to think things through. Imo

 

[Jan424]

The speed in which their road trip turned deadly isn’t really baffling even if one presumes robbery of an abandoned van parked on the side of the road was their initial motive, as it presented them an opportunity to steal.

What kind of low life’s would stoop to pilfer a vehicle in the middle of the night even if it appeared there were no occupants inside? So the owners get a tow the next day only to discover all their valuables and holiday and camping supplies have been stolen, ruining their vacation? Pffft, who cares, right? Who would do that except for some criminal-minded scoundrel without any scruples whatsoever, no regard to the horrible situation the owners would be left in. So it’s not really a huge stretch to imagine the same sort of self-entitled creeps would point a gun and intentionally shoot to kill, to get what they think they deserve just because the innocent, defenceless victims are alone in the middle of nowhere with no means of protecting themselves.

Surely it’s not just an unusual coincidence again another life was taken, that of LD because wanted to steal his car to flee. Two separate times a victim just happens to get murdered by a robbery gone wrong, no way.

IMO without knowing full background history of these two including any mental health issues and prior incidents of harmful, violent or criminal behaviour, what transpired is but a guessing game. Even then there’s never going to be all the answers, much like in any murder case. Even in instances of a murderer fulling confessing, they’re seldom able to provide an explanation about “why” other than their head was messed up at the time.

I agree with everything you have said .... particularly since I don't believe in coincidences, specifically ones where 2 separate times victims get shot dead by a robbery gone wrong ... within days of each incident! So when I say I'm baffled by how fast their road trip turned deadly, that is only when I'm mulling over the possibility that it was not planned. Several things, this included, have me leaning towards a planned murderous ride. And, then, even if their thoughts were to simply rob strangers (not shoot), that still tells me who Kam and Bryer were. People can say they were "nice" and "considerate" all they want. But they became their true selves once they left PA. Just my MOO, for what its worth.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Trees are quite effective at blocking infra-red. That's why they're so great for shielding us from the sun.

And I doubt they searched that area very heavily. They had a lot of ground to cover and it's quite surprising that they were found just 8 km from the vehicle. K and B could have made it to that location in an hour or two, had they used the road. I think most folks assumed they would attempt to put as much distance as possible between the RAV4 and themselves.

It's likely they can get a pretty accurate time of death from the time stamp on the video. It certainly can't be any earlier than what the time stamp is.

You took the words right out of my mouth, or.. off the keyboard rather. I was going to add; I was looking at some photos and videos of FLIR and infrared cameras and they're impressive but once you get into heavy forest they begin to become obsolete. When I read the news article about this plane they brought in I initially pictured like this new state of the art camera with Predator style colored heat vision (movie reference) but disappointingly it seems to be just black, white and gray. In fact, in that video I posted above where they found the RAV there's a brief shot from one of the infrared cameras they were using. Very underwhelming if you ask me.

So I asked my husband and he said that infrared can be inaccurate if there are a lot of "occluding factors" such as "heat noise" (ie. from animals) or dense tree cover.

 

[Iwondertoo]

Not meaning to be contrary here and I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely don't understand the sympathy that the suspects are garnering here at all.

Just speaking for myself but please don't confuse my sympathy for what KM and BS could have become to thinking it's sympathy for them personally. They are suspects in 3 murders and I have no sympathy for them. My sympathy is for the victims in this senseless crime.

I feel sad looking at BS's pic in his suit though. I'm sad thinking that at one time, KM and BS had a lot going for themselves but didn't appreciate it. The fact they took an evil route out lies squarely with them.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree with everything you have said .... particularly since I don't believe in coincidences, specifically ones where 2 separate times victims get shot dead by a robbery gone wrong ... within days of each incident! So when I say I'm baffled by how fast their road trip turned deadly, that is only when I'm mulling over the possibility that it was not planned. Several things, this included, have me leaning towards a planned murderous ride. And, then, even if their thoughts were to simply rob strangers (not shoot), that still tells me who Kam and Bryer were. People can say they were "nice" and "considerate" all they want. But they became their true selves once they left PA. Just my MOO, for what its worth.

I agree, after they crossed by ferry and headed north, their world became an a difference place, including free from living under the confines of their family members’ expectations. AS mentioned B had never been off Vancouver Isl and although we don’t know about K, as they began driving north they may’ve experienced remoteness for the first time in their lives. Nothing but wilderness, no cellphone coverage, hundreds of miles between small communities. For the same reason locals look out for one another, to young criminal minds the vastness may have been enticing as it represented opportunity.


“Trust is required in a place so empty and extreme. Every person is vulnerable to weather and animal attacks, to car crashes or medical emergencies, so people look after one another. It’s understood that someone may enter your home or cabin in an emergency and take what they need. If people have trouble on the highway, others stop and help.

“We do look after each other,” says Steve Simonovic, sitting outside his family’s business, Jade City, along Highway 37. “That’s how we exist. Otherwise, we couldn’t exist.”......

......Mr. Simonovic said that, when he saw Mr. Schmegelsky and Mr. McLeod at his family’s business, he immediately had a bad feeling about them in his gut. After 50 years living and working along one of the continent’s most desolate stretches of highway, Mr. Simonovic says he has learned to trust his instincts and that he didn’t like them on sight.

“When I see people like that I usually go by the back door and make sure my shotgun is loaded and ready. Fifty years I’ve been around here and I always have a gun in behind. You see this kind of people, you want to be ready if something happened,” he said.
Searching for answers: Sense of unease lingers in B.C.’s isolated north as police hunt suspects in remote killings

 

[Jan424]

Not meaning to be contrary here and I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely don't understand the sympathy that the suspects are garnering here at all. I feel sadness for their victims, not for BS or KM.

They had no reason to go out an murder three innocent people, robbery gone wrong or not. Imo, these two fed off each other and encouraged one another in whatever dark, disturbing fantasies they had, and them knowing/befriending one another, their final acts of violence against innocent people was the culmination of a perfect storm that brewed for years.

They hung with each other for years, they knew what the other was about. I still feel that KM was more of the leader than BS who we know had a very dark quality about him.

Others have said that they distanced themselves from BS because they found his words and his behaviour disturbing - that would be the normal thing to do. KM had to have shared at least some of those qualities, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted to associate with BS, and he certainly wouldn't have gone and brought two firearms on an extended road trip with him.
The presence of two guns found with the bodies indicates to me that this was at least partially planned.

SBM. I am one of those who has felt some sympathy towards K&B ... maybe not quite as much for Kam, as he seems to have had a good deal more positive things going for him in his life. But Bryer had the deck stacked against him from such an early age, and for that I do feel sympathetic. That being said, there is NO excuse for what they have done. Had they lived, the book should have been thrown at them, and they deserved to be locked away in a prison cell for the rest of their lives. My complete sympathies are always with the victims and their families. I cannot imagine their pain.
And I totally agree about the dark relationship these two must have shared. I have said previously that I'm sure they knew what the other was all about and were of like minds. Otherwise, they would never have remained thicker than thieves all of these years growing up. Friends who outgrow one another for various reasons drift. You cannot remain that close with someone unless you have the same basic outlook on life or plan for the future.
Those firearms (among other things) tell me too, this road trip had some type of nefarious plan all along. JMO