Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

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  • #81
Earlier on I found numerous posts within the gaming community from people who all said Bryer was a really nice person and he would never do something like this. I even found a gaming video in which Bryer may be talking, in which he is telling somebody off for being rude. I didn't post here as not from a suitable source.

Also want to say that I reached out to people from PA throughout this process, who knew Bryer, and they said the same thing. Obviously can’t post sources because I want to protect their anonymity. But a lot of locals who knew him have spoken out on social media and in private asserting this is completely unprecedented. The media is very good at seeking out “sources” that will affirm its sensational stories. I believe we should all be very critical when confronting their profile of the suspects.

I mean, just look at that interview with AS and 60 minutes. IMO that woman violated several codes of ethics to milk her story.
 
  • #82
I've never seen those particular type of teen killers including those who want to become spree or mass murderers, and had started doing so.

Instead for the ones who didn't take the cowardly way out, and were convicted.. in their police interviews the common denominator seems they tend to have the same flat affect with no emotional responses nor remorse, and certainly shows no regret for anything they have done.

Even many years later when they agree to be interviewed again by anyone they are constantly each asked if they ever think of the victims they brutally murdered. Sadly, the most common answer given is No, not at all or very little. :(

Jmho

Can we stop calling it the coward’s way out? That’s extremely offensive to anyone who has suffered mental health issues, and to the loved ones of people who have committed suicide. Just call it suicide. I truly do not see the value of using that phrase other than to laterally illustrate one’s own archaic views on mental illness.

We also don’t know why they chose to commit suicide, how long they had been planning that course of action, and we don’t know what they did or did not regret in the process, and whether or not they “thought” about the victims. I said this one hundred times, but we don’t have a motive that we can work off of.

Sorry if this post comes off prickly in any way. Not trying to attack anyone, just this phrase bothers me. JMO.
 
  • #83
When I first heard about the murders and that B&K were missing, I went and snooped Facebook for B&K posts. I was expecting to find (which I normally do when searching missing people) "missing posts" being shared frantically and friends/colleagues desperate to find their friends/loved ones and reaching out for ANY sign of them.

Well, I found zilch. No one was posting/sharing their missing poster! This made me think hhmmm these guys maybe weren't well liked as why isn't anyone concerned about finding them? I thought then, maybe they are suspects. I didn't dare post that or say it out loud, especially on this forum but that was definitely my thought.

Sorry not really to do with your post exactly, kinda jumped off your post! But I do wonder if friends/family suspected they were in trouble when first declared missing as opposed to being victims themselves.
This is interesting that there was nothing on social media. I don't really think they had a large circle of friends, but you would think there would be something. IMO
 
  • #84
Y

For B&K I was expecting to find maybe a couple other locals or youths would post on their behalf. Like - "hey, my old classmates are missing and people were just murdered, help me find them please!" or "my ex-coworker (Walmart) is missing out in the bush, anyone who lives out there keep your eyes open for these two and bring them home" or "omg, my cousin and his friend can't be found and they're on a roadtrip, spread the word and help find them!"
You know... the typical pleas that people put out there when someone goes missing!
SBM
Yes, and all of the examples you suggested would seem to be in the realm of possibility. Makes sense to me.
 
  • #85
Yes, I agree that it's irrelevant to the tragic outcome, and certainly not an issue for me, but was probably very important to them at the time. Just knowing that they were stuck in their family homes, and probably could never be together in small town PA, may have been part of the reason that they set out on the road together. Whatever their twisted motive, Kam seemed to act as Bryer's chauffeur throughout, while simply accepting his overall weirdness and penchant for creepy public displays back in PA.

My apologies for not being clearer, but what I meant by shocking is that usually it's LGBTQ young people who are murdered, and not the other way around.
I totally agree with you (no apologies necessary) .... I was thinking along the same lines as you were when I mentioned in my post that it would make pieces fit just a little bit better, ... "stuck in family homes, small town PA". They could likely never reveal this part of them. It could go either way in my mind but, as we are both saying, it doesn't change this horrible, tragic outcome. IMO
 
  • #86
They were "missing" for a day before they were made suspects. Also, who knows what was said to the family about what to post and not post. I have a lot more thoughts on this case I'd love to share but won't because I want to stay with the rules.
 
  • #87
I have a feeling if they don't do update this month, we won't know anything until late October/early November because of election season.
 
  • #88
I’ve been lurking for a while, but I need to get something off my chest. I don’t think these two boys are guilty. I’m not suggesting it isn’t possible but there is way too much doubt.

For one, who murders someone, then torches their truck near the body, and takes off in the victim's vehicle when they are guilty? I believe these actions are of someone who saw something, was scared of something, or feared for their life.

Then we look at the suspects. We consider Kam. From multiple diverse sources, from different people, he is described as being kind, considerate and even at times, there for others. How does someone who is defined as being a good, kind person translate into being a perpetrator? Then there is Bryer. If he was such a disturbed kid, why hadn’t anybody done anything to help him. It was after AS interview that all of a sudden he was this odd kid, said these peculiar things. So what that he showed an interest in military and Russia. That doesn’t make someone a murderer.

They say there is evidence tying the crime scenes together. It was evident they were at Mr. Dyck’s crime scene because they had his car. But as described above, that doesn’t make them murderers. Remember, Kam was described as being kind and considerate from someone other than his family. What to say, he didn’t stop and offer help to Chynna and Lucas who were stuck on the side of the road? That could be the connection they had to that crime scene. And on the way to wherever they were going, it’s possible they could have run into truck problems since they were driving in an older truck. There is no service, so hitchhiking would be the only option. It’s very possible they saw Mr. Dyck deceased, freaked out and drove off. At the most that make them thieves, again a huge stretch for being killers.

I mean look at the surveillance footage. The look on Kam’s face was fear. Even Bryer was anxious-looking. Who knows what they were doing in the store. Perhaps they were looking for protection or figuring out what to do next. Remember these two are teenagers. They left with all their belongings to go look for work and probably to go explore, because well they are teenagers.

As for how they obtained guns? They could have gotten them at any time during their travels. Maybe after they were plastered all over the news as being dangerous. Everyone and their dog were looking for them. They could have felt like they had no way out, no one would believe them and didn't want to go to prison for something they didn't do. Stress could put them over the edge, hence why they had guns.

Then there is the long long delay since their bodies were found, and still no update. What if the guns weren’t used in the murders like they suspect?

Either way, I really hope for justice for the three families of the victims, and that they get the right guys. Maybe I’m wrong but there are way too many holes in the story, for me to believe these two teens are responsible.

Clipped from the above post:
'It was evident they were at Mr. Dyck’s crime scene because they had his car.'

Within some otherwise excellent thoughts, this assumption is problematic as it is not necessarily true. Though it appears evident, the two yokels could just as easily have been compromised into driving it away from a different parked up place. That they never even met Mr Dyck is also a feasible possibility, but from such a starting assumption as 'evident', we build upon a narrative which can preclude other truths.

Returning to scrutinize the very first factual evidence in this case - the video from the Fort Nelson gas station - causes me to recall a famous old quip; 'who ya gonna believe, your own eyes or what I tell ya?'. A white car slowly cruises into the forecourt from the street until spotting the blue van parked up at a pump with Lucas and Chynna inside the store. It then confidently parks between the van and store entrance before a man exits a rear passenger seat to enter the store.

The man certainly has a beard fitting an eyewitness report of later confrontation at the murder site. He returns to the car after a few minutes empty-handed, seemingly having bought nothing. Was he casing LnC from some earlier incident? His manner seems quite purposeful. But yes, he might just have as easily needed a toilet, atm etc. The front two not taking such opportunity, is explainable also, but odd to me given the distances between refueling stops in that region.
This was at 7:30pm according to the security video.

Liard Hot Springs lies about a four hour drive away, so it would make sense to use the extended driving daylight to reach that destination. The bearded-guy stand-off reportedly happened at dusk which would have been around 11:30pm, fitting the drive timeline from Fort Nelson. I'm not sure you follow someone for four hours if you intend them harm when anyplace along the way would presumably work just as well - unless, of course you need the nighttime dark as cover.

The murders appear to be, from what little we are told, overly brutal. Rage could incite that in of the unstable or evil, while gangland retribution shows similar violence. Despite the many posts regarding KnB's possible mindset, I remain unconvinced that either was capable of reaching such levels. Rcmp rightly needed to apprehend two fleeing suspects, and surely by now they will have collected all evidence to prove their guilt. Let's trust they weren't so focused on the fugitives to have dismissed any cctv footage from inside the gas station store, for any interaction between the victims and the bearded guy. He may very well have been the last person to see LnC alive.

The detailed websleuth discussion here regarding a KnB motive or lack of one, have often been quite convincing, and may yet prove to be accurate when rcmp release their report. But I doubt we'll see anything before the general election here on October 21, if ever. 6 weeks and counting since the reported 'suicides' in a supposedly clear cut case, seems contrived. imo.
 
  • #89
Can we stop calling it the coward’s way out?

I agree with this. I don't think suicide in general is easy. Why do you think so many fugitives turn themselves in?
 
  • #90
[QUOTE="I just can't picture Kam or Bryer approaching that van on a deserted highway in the darkness. I said the other night; "Who approaches an old broken down van on the side of the road at night, unaware of who, what or how many may be inside?" It sounds spooky just typing that. [/QUOTE]

I've often wondered whether the truck had already started giving K&B trouble and K&B parked it and caught a ride/hitchhiked in that Jeep that pulled was seen pulled over up the road from L&C's van late that afternoon.

Perhaps they were negotiating to get a ride from L&C and were frustrated when they said "no", and K&B came back later, knowing L&C were inside, with the intention of stealing their van. Things went awry and shootings occurred.

Maybe their truck was still running well enough to get them back to the van and then drive off after the melee. Or maybe someone else drove them back there, and it was the Jeep driver who "led the charge" that ended with the murders of L&C.

I know, I know ... I'm grasping at straws. Straw-grasping is pretty much all we have left until another presser, though. JMO
 
  • #91
Can we stop calling it the coward’s way out? That’s extremely offensive to anyone who has suffered mental health issues, and to the loved ones of people who have committed suicide. Just call it suicide. I truly do not see the value of using that phrase other than to laterally illustrate one’s own archaic views on mental illness.

We also don’t know why they chose to commit suicide, how long they had been planning that course of action, and we don’t know what they did or did not regret in the process, and whether or not they “thought” about the victims. I said this one hundred times, but we don’t have a motive that we can work off of.

Sorry if this post comes off prickly in any way. Not trying to attack anyone, just this phrase bothers me. JMO.

I’ve referred to their deaths by suicide as taking the cowardly way out and I’m sorry if you find that offensive. Their deliberate ending their lives was the cowardly way out IMO as opposed to B&K turning themselves in to police, telling their story, admitting their involvement, allowing justice to take its course, showing remorse and giving the families of the victims the satisfaction of at least knowing the killers of their loved ones took the high road, even though it will not bring the 3 back.

The suicides of B&K not only wasted their own lives, but it makes the murder of 3 innocent people even more senseless. Regarding suicide pacts, it’s pure evil to murder others to become the reason for anyone to take their own lives whether it be random or mass shootings IMO.
 
  • #92
I’ve referred to their deaths by suicide as taking the cowardly way out and I’m sorry if you find that offensive. Their deliberate ending their lives was the cowardly way out IMO as opposed to B&K turning themselves in to police, telling their story, admitting their involvement, allowing justice to take its course, showing remorse and giving the families of the victims the satisfaction of at least knowing the killers of their loved ones took the high road, even though it will not bring the 3 back.

The suicides of B&K not only wasted their own lives, but it makes the murder of 3 innocent people even more senseless. Regarding suicide pacts, it’s pure evil to murder others to become the reason for anyone to take their own lives whether it be random or mass shootings IMO.

Aren't you the least bit curious about if these two boys supposedly killed three people and there isn't a report of them hurting anyone else? Every witness that had seen them afterward described them as docile, nervous, anxious. They could have taken the truck of the man who helped them out of the mud.
 
  • #93
Also want to say that I reached out to people from PA throughout this process, who knew Bryer, and they said the same thing. Obviously can’t post sources because I want to protect their anonymity. But a lot of locals who knew him have spoken out on social media and in private asserting this is completely unprecedented. The media is very good at seeking out “sources” that will affirm its sensational stories. I believe we should all be very critical when confronting their profile of the suspects.

It's clear to me that the media took behavior that is normal in the gaming community, like trolling and making dark jokes, and normal in the Airsoft community, like taking pictures of yourself in camo with an Airsoft gun and gas mask, and framed it as unusual.

Now that's not to say that Bryer wasn't obviously troubled. I've seen the picture he posted with the Airsoft gun in his mouth, and even if it was intended to be a joke, it made me sad. And of course the Nazi stuff is highly questionable.

But overall, the impression I get is that Kam and Bryer were more or less normal, if troubled, teenagers before this happened. There was no escalating pattern of violent or criminal actions.

Kam's family described him as someone who has always cared about others' feelings. Bryer's family described him as someone who, before this, would be more likely to be helping people than hurting them. Both of their families seemed to be in shock that this happened.

And, I do think they had a lot more friends than the media has led us to believe. However, I think most of their friends are not coming forward because the media has had this portrayal of Bryer. They're grieving and in shock, and don't want to have to deal with the media on top of that.

Bryer may have had homicidal thoughts, judging by someone of the statements he made, but there's no evidence that he ever physically harmed anyone. Something pushed them over the edge.

I mean, just look at that interview with AS and 60 minutes. IMO that woman violated several codes of ethics to milk her story.

Seriously..."is your son a killer because you got him an Airsoft rifle?" Good thing Alan didn't fall for any of her sensationalist nonsense.
 
  • #94
Aren't you the least bit curious about if these two boys supposedly killed three people and there isn't a report of them hurting anyone else? Every witness that had seen them afterward described them as docile, nervous, anxious. They could have taken the truck of the man who helped them out of the mud.

Not really. I noticed during the manhunt there seemed to be a bizarre obsession about these two, as if they were running on evercharge batteries and would continue outrunning police by stealing vehicles and hurting people. I must admit I’d wondered if this sad sage involving a manhunt was becoming entertainment for some, SM hoping they would flee to the area they lived as if this was some sort of virtual reality show.

In reality, I’m certain murdering innocent people and becoming hunted outlaws wasn’t as exciting as might be presumed these two thought it would be at the onset. Always looking over ones shoulder, exhaustion and paranoia are bound to set in and involving two people, that leads to distrust, disagreements and disputes. By the time they reached northern Manitoba the interaction between the two would not have resembled the high excitement compared to first setting out from Port Alberni. Their sole focus changed laying low and avoiding capture. When the RAV4 was found burning IMO they still might’ve actually believed they could disappear into the wilderness of Northern Manitoba and live as survivalists, never to be found. A combination of one foolish notion after another, all bad decisions. JMO.
 
  • #95
Aren't you the least bit curious about if these two boys supposedly killed three people and there isn't a report of them hurting anyone else? Every witness that had seen them afterward described them as docile, nervous, anxious. They could have taken the truck of the man who helped them out of the mud.

Why do they have to keep hurting people ad infinitum just because they hurt people in the past? Maybe they were just done with violence at that point.

They went from non-violent to violent out of nowhere, in sort of an explosion of rage and angst. It wasn't their natural state to be violent, given what we know about their past behavior. As I said, I think something pushed them over the edge, and it may have been just as surprising to them as to anyone else. I don't think they had the energy to keep it going for long. I think those three killings were all they had in them.

It's possible that once the rage and adrenaline wore off, the depression and horror set in. After all, you have to be in a pretty bad mind-state to commit "suicide by gunfire" (and I assume that means shooting themselves in the face). Can you imagine how difficult it would be to actually go through with that? A lot of fugitives turn themselves in because they can't do it. I think the reason why they lived for several days in the wilderness was because that was how long it took for them to actually go through with it.

The fact that they filmed a goodbye video to their families, one that was apparently appropriate enough to actually show the families, indicates to me that they missed what they left behind, and possibly even regretted what they did. If they were just "screw the world" until the end, I don't think they would have left a goodbye, or at least not one that the RCMP would have shown the families.
 
  • #96
snipped to reply....

But overall, the impression I get is that Kam and Bryer were more or less normal, if troubled, teenagers before this happened. There was no escalating pattern of violent or criminal actions.

Kam's family described him as someone who has always cared about others' feelings. Bryer's family described him as someone who, before this, would be more likely to be helping people than hurting them. Both of their families seemed to be in shock that this happened.

And, I do think they had a lot more friends than the media has led us to believe. However, I think most of their friends are not coming forward because the media has had this portrayal of Bryer. They're grieving and in shock, and don't want to have to deal with the media on top of that.

Bryer may have had homicidal thoughts, judging by someone of the statements he made, but there's no evidence that he ever physically harmed anyone. Something pushed them over the edge.



Seriously..."is your son a killer because you got him an Airsoft rifle?" Good thing Alan didn't fall for any of her sensationalist nonsense.

Other than AS, nobody with close interaction to either B or K have shared much of anything with the media and by that I mean those who would’ve been interviewed by police in their task of developing a profile for both of them. There’s no reason for those same people to feel compelled to tell the media what they told police, given after noted as missing, the two were being sought as armed and extremely dangerous wanted for the murder of three strangers. During the manhunt, what would be gained by the media publishing stories about prior troubling behaviour when I’m sure everyone hoped they’d not engage in any more violence and instead allow themselves to be successfully arrested? Going out in a “blaze of glory” would’ve also been an undesirable outcome and negative media stories certainly would have the potential of fuelling the suspects anger and rage.

After they were found dead, even less of a reason for people to talk to the media because the suspects’ friends and relatives including parents, grandparents, siblings, probably aunts, uncles and cousins too still live amongst them within the community that’s home to them all.

So for those reasons I don’t think the media has been provided with nearly enough information for the general public to form an opinion about either B or K, because the conclusion of the investigation by the RCMP has not yet been provided.

In Canada, even when criminal cases are heard in the courtroom, it’s always absolutely amazing how the vast majority of facts and evidence are almost always a total surprise. So I think maybe your expectation upon the media to release information which accurately informs the general public of the character if either B or K, in advance of official information released by police, may reflect an American paradigm that doesn’t hold true in Canada. It’s just the way it is here, the media doesn’t play a large role in the same way. JMO
 
  • #97
I’ve referred to their deaths by suicide as taking the cowardly way out and I’m sorry if you find that offensive. Their deliberate ending their lives was the cowardly way out IMO as opposed to B&K turning themselves in to police, telling their story, admitting their involvement, allowing justice to take its course, showing remorse and giving the families of the victims the satisfaction of at least knowing the killers of their loved ones took the high road, even though it will not bring the 3 back.

The suicides of B&K not only wasted their own lives, but it makes the murder of 3 innocent people even more senseless. Regarding suicide pacts, it’s pure evil to murder others to become the reason for anyone to take their own lives whether it be random or mass shootings IMO.


I’m afraid you’ve missed my point entirely (that using the phrase is offensive beyond the context of this case).

The concept of Evil and Good is.... really quite boring to me. Leaves no room for the nuance of real life. A concept better left to Disney movies, IMO.

I won’t address the topic further as I’m afraid of the thread being closed down, so that’s all I’m saying on that.
 
  • #98
It's clear to me that the media took behavior that is normal in the gaming community, like trolling and making dark jokes, and normal in the Airsoft community, like taking pictures of yourself in camo with an Airsoft gun and gas mask, and framed it as unusual.

Now that's not to say that Bryer wasn't obviously troubled. I've seen the picture he posted with the Airsoft gun in his mouth, and even if it was intended to be a joke, it made me sad. And of course the Nazi stuff is highly questionable.

But overall, the impression I get is that Kam and Bryer were more or less normal, if troubled, teenagers before this happened. There was no escalating pattern of violent or criminal actions.

Kam's family described him as someone who has always cared about others' feelings. Bryer's family described him as someone who, before this, would be more likely to be helping people than hurting them. Both of their families seemed to be in shock that this happened.

And, I do think they had a lot more friends than the media has led us to believe. However, I think most of their friends are not coming forward because the media has had this portrayal of Bryer. They're grieving and in shock, and don't want to have to deal with the media on top of that.

Bryer may have had homicidal thoughts, judging by someone of the statements he made, but there's no evidence that he ever physically harmed anyone. Something pushed them over the edge.



Seriously..."is your son a killer because you got him an Airsoft rifle?" Good thing Alan didn't fall for any of her sensationalist nonsense.

Exactly. Thank you.

<modsnip: Discuss the case and not other members>
 
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  • #99
It would be interesting to know if they took their monitors as well. If this was pre-planned they could have taken their computers just to keep their hard drives away from police. An Adam Lanza type bid to be opaque and completely control the situation and narrative.

Now that you bring that up, I guess I kind of assumed they did take their monitors with them as well. I don't think this was a case of; "let's be sure and secure our hard drives and destroy them if we have to when the time comes." From what I've observed from my PC gamer friends, they pride their monitors almost as much as their gaming rigs themselves. Some of them even have multiple monitors. I mean what's a great gaming PC without something beautiful and top of the line to display it? Mind you they're not nearly as expensive as state of the art living room TVs because they're half the size. I'm almost certain their monitors went up in flames in the Camper like everything else. Anyway, I do I think Kam and Bryer were fully intent on moving away from Port Alberni and liberating themselves. Feeling stifled by their families any longer. I do feel jobs were on their agenda, but first things first, lets get out of here and figure out where we want to live. They had to have known they couldn't be nomads forever. Speaking more on feeling stifled, I can't imagine Bryer's Grandma was too over bearing and let him do whatever he wanted within reason. I just don't think he was all that terrible of a kid outside the typical teenage stuff i.e. coming home late, if at all (probably stayed at Kam's a lot) drinking, smoking, late night gaming, whatever. I do wonder though if Kam's parents were more uptight and on his case? Maybe they liked to do lots of quality time family type stuff which was not at all his jam? Or as he got older, he grew out of it and grew away from them. Some others examples could be; he needs to do something with his life, like go to college or get a "grown up job" (I really hate when people say that.) Kam may have also feared his parents would never accept if he wanted a romantic relationship with Bryer or perhaps "the rents" put his and Bryer's friendship in jeopardy. He strikes me as someone who likes rules and structure, but also feels the rules and structure do not apply to him. In other words if his freedom and lackadaisical life is threatened, he's out.
 
  • #100
I do wonder though if Kam's parents were more uptight and on his case? Maybe they liked to do lots of quality time family type stuff which was not at all his jam? Or as he got older, he grew out of it and grew away from them. Some others examples could be; he needs to do something with his life, like go to college or get a "grown up job" (I really hate when people say that.) Kam may have also feared his parents would never accept if he wanted a romantic relationship with Bryer or perhaps "the rents" put his and Bryer's friendship in jeopardy. He strikes me as someone who likes rules and structure, but also feels the rules and structure do not apply to him. In other words if his freedom and lackadaisical life is threatened, he's out.
SBM
Exactly, your thoughts here have mirrored my own. In my opinion, I think your scenario with Kam's home life is a strong possibility. And he felt stifled, had enough and needed to get away. Of course, MOO!
 
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