Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

[Moriarty]

I’d like to pose a completely random question — this is something I’ve been wondering for a while now:

How severe is the darkness at night, in northern B.C.? Is it pitch black, or is there a fair amount of stellar illumination?

Would a person be able to walk to up to a van in the middle of the night and see it clearly, or would it be silhouetted in the dark? And (harder question to answer of course) could someone look into a van window and see people inside?

Asking partially because of Alandra Hull’s account, partially because of other things I’m curious about.

Not sure if you got your answer, but my understanding is that on July 14, it would not get totally dark. Around 11:30 pm it would be at the tail end of civil twilight and the beginning of what is called nautical twilight...the horizon is still visible but the brighter stars are also visible.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Am I the only one that feels slightly uncomfortable that the father of one victim got so much say in another country's investigation? I know he works in the police and I don't want to be disrespectful. But there were 5 families involved and none of them should be that involved in the case. JMO

I don't understand why the families shouldn't be involved. There's too many subtle hints being made throughout this thread, speak plainly because it sounds like conspiracy theories to me.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

That is more reason to have the mindset that they are innocent. Canada is a country where one is innocent until proven guilty.

This is not a courtroom, please read the TOS.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I don't understand why the families shouldn't be involved. There's too many subtle hints being made throughout this thread, speak plainly because it sounds like conspiracy theories to me.

Families of victims are biased. They are too emotional to be unbias. I think it's best left to those who aren't directly related, or emotionally attached to the case.

 

[zinny77]

I am not implying anything. I am just clearly saying I don't think that any victims family should be part of the investigation or send any officers from another country to help. In any case. RCPM should work autonomously and keep the families updated obviously

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Families of victims are biased. They are too emotional to be unbias. I think it's best left to those who aren't directly related, or emotionally attached to the case.

There's enough of the public getting emotional about the case, that can be a problem too. The families would be made aware of the evidence. The evidence collected from their homes and from the crime scenes and anywhere else.
I'm waiting patiently to hear the RCMP's announcement, I have confidence in them, we'll see, I'll leave this thread for a little bit longer until then.

 

[MistyWaters]

That is more reason to have the mindset that they are innocent. Canada is a country where one is innocent until proven guilty.

As Canada does not prosecute people postmortem, constitutional rights become a mute point after death. K&B are no longer alive so they cannot face criminal allegations or plead guilty or not guilty nor in their absence, does the general public have the ability to step up for them.

When the RCMPs final report is released it will support why police have no reason to seek to arrest, nor the Crown to prosecute any other suspects who were responsible for the murder of L&C and LD and why . The point of this is to prove why the murder investigation will then be closed because there’s nobody alive who can be prosecuted and police owe this to the families of the three victims.

The media often reports about cases of domestic murder/suicides. This murder case is not that much different in that murder investigation are closed once police are satisfied the killer took his or her own life. That’s the responsibility society expects from police - solving crimes. When there’s nobody to arrest or prosecute, then their task is concluded.

 

[Moriarty]

This is how I feel. I just don't see how these two boys planned any of this. This is a case like no other I've seen. It isn't textbook anyway, so that is where my feels that they are innocent, at the very least of Chynna and Lucas's murder, because it doesn't make sense.

Well, it is textbook, in some senses...I posted this back in mid-August (thread 15 or 16 maybe), and take it however you want (statistics only tell us so much!):

"Characteristics of Canadian Youth-Perpetrated Homicides" by Woodworth, Agar and Coupland...
Quick Summary: of 105 youth murderers who killed between 1990 and 2008: For multiple perpetrators, 66.7% of the time the victim is a stranger; 81.6% of the time the homicide occurred as part of theft or robbery; 81.3% of the time, the homicide was instrumental or a planned part of the robbery but something reactive occurred to trigger it.

And in Explorations in Forensic Psychology (2015) by Dr. Margo Watt of St. FX University in Halifax, the last chapter looks at youth and teens who kill. I know KM and BS are technically adults, but from much of what we have learned they seem like youth still in many ways (emotionally, maturity, etc.). Watt found that 57% of youth-committed homicide involve at least one accomplice.

Watt, cited an older 1979 study but then cites many more recent studies that have confirmed or built upon this work. In the original study, the researchers defined three separate groups or types of youth committed homicides. The first group is the one I found interesting: youth who commit homicide in the course of a robbery or for no apparent reason at all.

Some of the descriptors of these youth: a history of assaultive or threatening behaviour with often property offences, poor academic performance especially reading problems, considered antisocial by others and lacking empathy, attachment disruption with either a broken home or little to no psychological sustenance.

Most defining of all was an inability to cope with stress. These youth seem quiescent, cooperative, even charming when there were no frustrations. However, when there was environmental overstimulation and frustration, they became unpredictable and violent.

Again...take it for what you will...

 

[Grouper]

JMO: I don’t put much stock into the account from the girl who made the beheading comment.

I’ve seen young kids pushed to do and say all sorts of things because they were being bullied. I’ve watched young children scream at others because they were being attacked.

Not because they loved aggression and striking fear into others, but because they were scared.

It made a lot of sense to me what Al said about Bryer building up a persona to shield himself from hurt.

JMO!!!!

 

[Grouper]

Not sure if you got your answer, but my understanding is that on July 14, it would not get totally dark. Around 11:30 pm it would be at the tail end of civil twilight and the beginning of what is called nautical twilight...the horizon is still visible but the brighter stars are also visible.

Thank you @Moriarty ! I was wondering more about the darkness between the hours of midnight to around 4am, like in the heart of night.

Maybe people feel that this is irrelevant, but it feels relevant to me.

I guess.... MOO??? I dunno.

 

[Grouper]

As Canada does not prosecute people postmortem, constitutional rights become a mute point after death. K&B are no longer alive so they cannot face criminal allegations or plead guilty or not guilty nor in their absence, does the general public have the ability to step up for them.

When the RCMPs final report is released it will support why police have no reason to seek to arrest, nor the Crown to prosecute any other suspects who were responsible for the murder of L&C and LD and why . The point of this is to prove why the murder investigation will then be closed because there’s nobody alive who can be prosecuted and police owe this to the families of the three victims.

The media often reports about cases of domestic murder/suicides. This murder case is not that much different in that murder investigation are closed once police are satisfied the killer took his or her own life. That’s the responsibility society expects from police - solving crimes. When there’s nobody to arrest or prosecute, then their task is concluded.

To be fair, we also don’t know if they have anyone else in custody who is connected to the case. It’s possible that there’s more beneath the surface. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Also a lot of the things I read clearly stated the they couldn't imagine them doing something like that so definitely after they were named suspects

Who would want to say they could imagine them doing anything like that?

 

[Moriarty]

Thank you @Moriarty ! I was wondering more about the darkness between the hours of midnight to around 4am, like in the heart of night.

Maybe people feel that this is irrelevant, but it feels relevant to me.

I guess.... MOO??? I dunno.

Oh...ok. From what I can figure out at Sunrise and sunset times in Liard River Hot Springs Park, it doesn't get totally, pitch dark at night near Liard Hot Springs until later in August. So it would have stayed in that nautical twilight zone on July 14/15 until the sun began rising again.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not sure if you got your answer, but my understanding is that on July 14, it would not get totally dark. Around 11:30 pm it would be at the tail end of civil twilight and the beginning of what is called nautical twilight...the horizon is still visible but the brighter stars are also visible.

Watson Lake is just a bit further north and according to this link, twilight begins again at about 3am. If there was any amount of total darkness during the night of July 14th, it’d only have been between midnight and 3am.

Sunrise and sunset times in Watson Lake, YT - July 2019

 

[LoisLane]

Thank you @Moriarty ! I was wondering more about the darkness between the hours of midnight to around 4am, like in the heart of night.

Maybe people feel that this is irrelevant, but it feels relevant to me.

I guess.... MOO??? I dunno.

The phase of the moon, northern lights, and weather report for that evening could help understand that. Full moon on a clear night makes a big difference for light.

 

[SovereignSnake]

The phase of the moon, northern lights, and weather report for that evening could help understand that. Full moon on a clear night makes a big difference for light.

Very good point @LoisLane I did factor the Full Moon into this whole thing as well, not to mention the New Moon that fell on the night of July 31st. Admittedly I used the New Moon as a frame of reference when I was trying to figure out when Kam and Bryer actually died. Anyway, the Full Moon was the night of July 16th but the sky would have been especially bright the nights of the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th.

 

[MistyWaters]

To be fair, we also don’t know if they have anyone else in custody who is connected to the case. It’s possible that there’s more beneath the surface. JMO.

I’m not sure if there’s a perception out there that police only solved the murders of L&C and LD after K&B were found dead but that can’t be entirely true. Because the two were named armed and extremely dangerous suspects after police gathered evidence which linked them to both murder scenes - that’s why the manhunt began when their status changed from “missing” to “suspects”.

If a third person was believed to have been involved in causing the deaths of the three victims I can’t think of one good reason why police would keep that a secret all this time.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I’m not sure if there’s a perception out there that police only solved the murders of L&C and LD after K&B were found dead but that can’t be true. They were named armed and extremely dangerous suspects because police already had evidence linking them to both murder scenes - that’s why the manhunt began.

If a third person was believed to have been involved I can’t think of one good reason why police would keep that a secret all this time.

I don't think they had any evidence at all to connect them to Lucas and Chynna, only that the crime scenes were connected. Hence why they were never formally charged with Lucas and Chynna's murder.

 

[Kubirai]

Thank you @Moriarty ! I was wondering more about the darkness between the hours of midnight to around 4am, like in the heart of night.

Maybe people feel that this is irrelevant, but it feels relevant to me.

I guess.... MOO??? I dunno.

I understand your question, because I asked a guy to drive through around 2AM in late July and early August. Without moon and headlights off, you could still see outlines of trees, bushes and rocks. With moonlight, there is no problem at all.

I imagine the killers passed the van going north, and drove back south after some time, with headlights off.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think they had any evidence at all to connect them to Lucas and Chynna, only that the crime scenes were connected. Hence why they were never formally charged with Lucas and Chynna's murder.

“(BC. RCMP Assistant Commissioner Kevin Hackett) did confirm, however, that there is “significant evidence” linking the suspects to both crime scenes.”
B.C. murder suspects Bryer Schmegelsky, Kam McLeod believed to be dead