Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

[LoisLane]

I'm curious whether purchasing with a PAL is done analogue or digital approval process because I was dabbling with the idea if it was easy to make a fake PAL card...

I think they might be hard cards to fake though and doubtful these guys did that.

I’m guessing they are similar to drivers licenses. Are those easy to counterfeit?

 

[zinny77]

I guess it may depend on how much they bought but considering there was a trail of victims the police couldn’t take any chances or have predicted their only intent of suicide.

It was more of an after thought from me, since as far as we know, they didn't kill anyone else. RCMP could definitely not have know what they were planning to do if they had bought ammunitions.

 

[Trooper]

But we don’t know that either one was licensed. And I’m not understanding why they’d buy ammunition at Meadow Lake and then head to the remotest portion of northern Manitoba.

If they were purchasing ammo as they travelled, they would have had to be pretty sure they could get the right stuff for their weapon. It just doesn't seem a good plan. Maybe they didn't have enough money, either. It isn't unreasonable to factor in that they either bought the wrong ammo or not enough of it. Maybe they got gunhappy once they were out of town and shot away at birds and signs and clouds, like kids do, until they realized they were running low.

No one says they managed to steal any weapon or ammo off Lucas Fowler, or Prof Dyck.

That they stopped killing may be due to any number of factors, they didn't like their chances with the opportunities that arose, they had another plan, they didn't have enough ammo, something went wrong with the weaponry they had, ( this is not uncommon , and they had no background of technical repair or the tools to fix up a jammed gun ) maybe they thought they could blend in and everyone would forget about it.

Who knows. .. It would be more interesting to know why they started killing, than why they stopped...

 

[Grouper]

It was more of an after thought from me, since as far as we know, they didn't kill anyone else. RCMP could definitely not have know what they were planning to do if they had bought ammunitions.

To indulge this theory, depending on the volume of ammunition purchased, this could have raised concerns in the RCMP. Ie, if it was a significant amount, they could have been concerned that a mass shooting was being planned.

But honestly I don’t believe that at all. I don’t believe they did anything at Meadow Lake other than maybe use the rest room.

JMO

Has it been confirmed that they do indeed sell ammo there anyway?

 

[LoisLane]

Where are the gun owning Websleuthers to help us?!

I think this is a decent theory (JMO obviously). Like I said it could offer one explanation to the inexplicably massive police/RCMP/military presence.

I have to wonder if this was part of why the RCMP stressed that they were “armed and dangerous”.

Of course, if they DID purchase ammo in Meadow Lake, we don’t know why or how much. They could have just bought enough to ensure they had their own fate in their hands, when they reached Gillam.

Of course of course of course, this is all JMO

And I’m also wondering IF they did purchase ammo does the license limit them to fill ammo orders for a specific gun registered to them? Or can they buy whatever they need even if they have unregistered guns but a valid license?

I have no idea what would be considered a normal amount for an ammo purchase for hunting rifles or whatever common guns are around. It would probably be even more suspect if they went into the store and asked for only two bullets. But also if they bought out the store of a specific type that could be red flag too. Or it became concerning when the store realized after that they were wanted.

Just a theory! No proof. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I guess it may depend on how much they bought but considering there was a trail of victims the police couldn’t take any chances or have predicted their only intent of suicide.

Even if we assumed they never attempted nor bought any ammunition along the way, considering they were suspects in the violent murders of three victims, at least 2 of the 3 by gunfire, plus fleeing in a victims stolen vehicle, police wouldn’t assume they were suddenly harmless and hope they might turn themselves in. I think that’s the reason the RCMP couldn’t take any chances - because they were believed to be extremely dangerous by the violent nature of the crimes already committed.

 

[LoisLane]

To indulge this theory, depending on the volume of ammunition purchased, this could have raised concerns in the RCMP. Ie, if it was a significant amount, they could have been concerned that a mass shooting was being planned.

But honestly I don’t believe that at all. I don’t believe they did anything at Meadow Lake other than maybe use the rest room.

JMO

Has it been confirmed that they do indeed sell ammo there anyway?

I am assuming they sell ammo because they sell rifles. I don’t have a link handy but there was mention that they did make a purchase.

ETA. found link:
It is believed they've left British Columbia and may have been spotted in northern Saskatchewan, the RCMP said on Tuesday morning. Two employees at a hardware store in Meadow Lake, Sask., about 250 kilometres northwest of Saskatoon, told CBC News the suspects were in their store and made purchases, though it was not clear when.

Later in the day, Manitoba RCMP said in a tweet they had "reason to believe" McLeod and Schmegelsky were recently in the Gillam area, in the northeast of the province.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5221657

 

[Trooper]

Even if we assumed they never attempted nor bought any ammunition along the way, considering they were suspects in the violent murders of three victims, at least 2 of the 3 by gunfire, plus fleeing in a victims stolen vehicle, police wouldn’t assume they were suddenly harmless and hope they might turn themselves in. I think that’s the reason the RCMP couldn’t take any chances - because they were believed to be extremely dangerous by the violent nature of the crimes already committed.

Interesting too, that they were both charged with the 2nd deg,murder of Prof. Dyck. Not one, but both, I suppose on the grounds, merely an opinion, that perhaps there were 2 different caliber bullets fired, and the assumption made that they had a gun each. Which I am assuming also. I don't think they shared one gun between them. So one has to assume they both fired at Prof. Dyck.

Which means, perhaps, they had to be carrying enough ammo for 2 weapons. I reckon rifles, perhaps cutoff rifles, or some variation on that theme. I just don't see them carting around Mag 45. or a pair of Glocks. I don't see them getting a hold of those at all. Could be wrong though.

 

[Trooper]

I think they had a gun each. That relationship had all the earmarks of one with a sort of equal power, not one where one has a gun and one doesn't. It would surprise me to learn that they had only one gun between them, considering their final shooting event.

 

[LoisLane]

Maybe if the suspects had a non-typical gun and they realized they couldn’t restock in Northern Canada as easy as they thought then that attributed to when they decided it was time to use the last bullets on themselves.

 

[Esprite]

I’m exploring whether the suspects could have purchased ammunition at the Meadowlake COOP. If they attempted would they need a PAL/POL license to purchase (seems so).

If the seller has to verify the license they must be able to reference the sale details quite easily.

I am wondering how current and active the PAL system is and if it’s connected to missing/wanted people who are license holders - in real time.

It was said in the news that the employees recognized them as being in the store when they learned of them through the media reports.

So IF the suspects did make an ammo purchase and the COOP followed up with police with footage (after learning through the news outlets they were wanted) then possibly the PAL system isn’t a real time database.

But if they did make an ammo purchase there then that could also be another key factor to why the presence in Gillam was so locked down.

Or of course they did not purchase ammo there.

Firearms Licensing - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

[Trooper]

Maybe if the suspects had a non-typical gun and they realized they couldn’t restock in Northern Canada as easy as they thought then that attributed to when they decided it was time to use the last bullets on themselves.

a very workable theory. Has all the necessary elements of probability and possibility.

Maybe, when this is open and over, so to speak, it will be found exactly what kind of weaponry they had, because at least one of them would have been unable to throw his gun away. Assuming always, that they killed themselves by gunfire. That may not necessarily be so.

Where they got the guns will be a focus of the RCMP report, I would think. What sort, what caliber, who previously owned them and so on.

 

[Trooper]

I think the chances of eventually knowing how much ammo, and where it was obtained are pretty good, all things considered. I am working on the theory that it all came from Port Alberni, that none was purchased or obtained along the way.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I’m exploring whether the suspects could have purchased ammunition at the Meadowlake COOP. If they attempted would they need a PAL/POL license to purchase (seems so).

If the seller has to verify the license they must be able to reference the sale details quite easily.

I am wondering how current and active the PAL system is and if it’s connected to missing/wanted people who are license holders - in real time.

It was said in the news that the employees recognized them as being in the store when they learned of them through the media reports.

So IF the suspects did make an ammo purchase and the COOP followed up with police with footage (after learning through the news outlets they were wanted) then possibly the PAL system isn’t a real time database.

But if they did make an ammo purchase there then that could also be another key factor to why the presence in Gillam was so locked down.

Or of course they did not purchase ammo there.

I could see this actually. At least one article I read (can't remember which) said they made a purchase there. If that's accurate, whatever they purchased must have been small enough to fit in a pocket since they didn't have any bags when they walked out. This would also explain how the surveillance footage was found. Also wouldn't be surprised if the database doesn't real time update from all servers everywhere (and if so...yet another reason for Alan's lawyer to believe there will be an inquest).

EDIT: And if Alan knew about it from the police, it could explain the blaze of glory comments!!

I guess it may depend on how much they bought but considering there was a trail of victims the police couldn’t take any chances or have predicted their only intent of suicide.

Yeah I don't think it's that complicated. This was a case with victims from three countries. The entire world was watching. And one of the victims was the son of a high-ranking police officer. The police had to go off. Imagine if they hadn't and there were additional victims? They couldn't take any chances to screw it up, especially not with that much publicity. I also suspect they may have predicted the two would be scared off by the huge presence and would surrender willingly or kill themselves. JMO.

 

[LoisLane]

I could see this actually. At least one article I read (can't remember which) said they made a purchase there. If that's accurate, whatever they purchased must have been small enough to fit in a pocket since they didn't have any bags when they walked out. This would also explain how the surveillance footage was found. Also wouldn't be surprised if the database doesn't real time update from all servers everywhere (and if so...yet another reason for Alan's lawyer to believe there will be an inquest).

EDIT: And if Alan knew about it from the police, it could explain the blaze of glory comments!!



Yeah I don't think it's that complicated. This was a case with victims from three countries. The entire world was watching. And one of the victims was the son of a high-ranking police officer. The police had to go off. Imagine if they hadn't and there were additional victims? They couldn't take any chances to screw it up, especially not with that much publicity. I also suspect they may have predicted the two would be scared off by the huge presence and would surrender willingly or kill themselves. JMO.

I posted the article upthread regarding the purchase.

I don’t think AS would have had any communication about what they purchased in Meadowlake... BUT he could very well suspect it and yes I think it is another matter to address in an inquest if the purchase made was weapon related.

 

[LoisLane]

I think the chances of eventually knowing how much ammo, and where it was obtained are pretty good, all things considered. I am working on the theory that it all came from Port Alberni, that none was purchased or obtained along the way.

My first hunch is that the guns and ammo came from one place in PA. KM’s access.

 

[Trooper]

My first hunch is that the guns and ammo came from one place in PA. KM’s access.

And do you think that KM was gifted with the gun/s and ammo, with the fervent best wishes from a proud dad, have a good trip , son, bag some elk, or... were those weapons surreptitiously acquired and not missed until that horrid phone call from the RCMP?

 

[Trooper]

If it turns out that Kam and Bryer acquired the weaponry by underground methods, false name and address stuff, ordering with false ID, delivered to a pre arranged address, that would point to a certain degree of premeditation, would it not? . At the very least, a plan to be shooting at stuff, things, beings, perhaps people.

Maybe they had to order the ammo along with the guns, and they just didn't order enough, .. or they did, and did a whole lot of practice stuff before heading north... again, a certain degree of pre meditation going on there. ..

And then took off, rather quickly, left the job at Walmart suddenly, by all accounts, without re ordering the ammunition. ..

 

[zinny77]

If it turns out that Kam and Bryer acquired the weaponry by underground methods, false name and address stuff, ordering with false ID, delivered to a pre arranged address, that would point to a certain degree of premeditation, would it not? . At the very least, a plan to be shooting at stuff, things, beings, perhaps people.

Maybe they had to order the ammo along with the guns, and they just didn't order enough, .. or they did, and did a whole lot of practice stuff before heading north... again, a certain degree of pre meditation going on there. ..

And then took off, rather quickly, left the job at Walmart suddenly, by all accounts, without re ordering the ammunition. ..

Who does go on a killing trip and does not think about ammunitions??? Like seriously. How dumb are we suppose to believe they were? They had learning difficulties. It doesn't mean that they were completely stupid..They could have forgot a lot of things due to bad organisation skills. But ammunitions? That is the one thing they would have made sure to have if any kind of planning was involved...

 

[Trooper]

and that could be one reason why the killing stopped.

No ammo left.

(b) Jammed firing pin in the gun and no way to fix it. No skill to fix it.

(c) A distaste for getting up close , at first , to a potential victim, .. in other words, an avoidance of violent contact with people who may fight back, even perhaps win. The remarkable absence of any obvious signs of altercation on both Kam and Bryer in the store video, no bruises, no scratches , no limping, no black eye, and let's keep in mind, that when we see that video clip they have murdered three (3) people, all of whom loved life and were living it to the full and had no intention of folding. All healthy and remarkably fit and spry.

It seemed obvious to me that they had disabled their victims first, by gunshot, perhaps, certainly by surprise, with no advantage given , or mercy. Then the killing processed at the pace they set themselves. That did not include any chance of them receiving any injury at all.

So when they couldn't do the killing their way, it probably stopped.

They do have encounters people, up close ones, but without their weaponry that enables them to keep a distance between them and their target, it may not have seen to be a comfortable thing to do. No point , if one's target is going to go you, with all the fury in the world.