Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

[zinny77]

and that could be one reason why the killing stopped.

No ammo left.

(b) Jammed firing pin in the gun and no way to fix it. No skill to fix it.

(c) A distaste for getting up close , at first , to a potential victim, .. in other words, an avoidance of violent contact with people who may fight back, even perhaps win. The remarkable absence of any obvious signs of altercation on both Kam and Bryer in the store video, no bruises, no scratches , no limping, no black eye, and let's keep in mind, that when we see that video clip they have murdered three (3) people, all of whom loved life and were living it to the full and had no intention of folding. All healthy and remarkably fit and spry.

It seemed obvious to me that they had disabled their victims first, by gunshot, perhaps, certainly by surprise, with no advantage given , or mercy. Then the killing processed at the pace they set themselves. That did not include any chance of them receiving any injury at all.

So when they couldn't do the killing their way, it probably stopped.

They do have encounters people, up close ones, but without their weaponry that enables them to keep a distance between them and their target, it may not have seen to be a comfortable thing to do. No point , if one's target is going to go you, with all the fury in the world.

The girl at the little shop was alone. She was in a remote place. They could have just walked back in with their weapon and kill her the way they wanted. I am sure they saw plenty of people alone on their trip. I am sure they didn't lack of opportunities to kill if they wanted to. JMO

I am tehre is any evidence known at the moment to conclude the killings happened the way you describe it. It could have been panicky and fast JMO

 

[Trooper]

Who does go on a killing trip and does not think about ammunitions??? Like seriously. How dumb are we suppose to believe they were? They had learning difficulties. It doesn't mean that they were completely stupid..They could have forgot a lot of things due to bad organisation skills. But ammunitions? That is the one thing they would have made sure to have if any kind of planning was involved...

How could they know how much ammo they needed? . Maybe they thought they could get it on their travels and found they needed certain licenses and other official paraphernalia. They certainly rationed it out by the time it came to be using the guns on themselves. Those bullets they kept dry and safe.

People run out of ammo ALL THE TIME. Especially people who shouldn't be having guns in the first place. They , most of all, forget to bring 'plenty of ammo'. They, above all other genres of shooters, reach for the ammo box and find it full of yesterdays cigarette butts.

These two were handicapped by a lot more than learning difficulties. They had untapped rage problems, very poor impulse control, a particular enchantment with fantasy, and probably, a whole lot more anchors weighing them down. It is hard to ascertain just how very stupid some people can be, given a set of circumstances.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Am I the only one that feels slightly uncomfortable that the father of one victim got so much say in another country's investigation? I know he works in the police and I don't want to be disrespectful. But there were 5 families involved and none of them should be that involved in the case. JMO

What do you mean by “got so much say in another country’s investigation?” Please provide a link that suggests this. I’ve followed this case from the beginning and I’ve never read that he had any say at all.

He flew to Vancouver for the express purpose of arranging the return of Lucas' body to Australia. “Fowler's distraught parents flew to Canada to bring their son home. The New South Wales police offered two detectives as a liaison with their Canadian counterparts”.

The forgotten faces in 'fugitives' story

At the first press conference, held on 19 July, Sgt. Janelle Shoihet, a BC RCMP media liaison officer said, "We understand that Lucas’ family is travelling to Canada and that his father is an active member of the NSW Police Force. He is accompanied by a number of police officers from Australia. These investigators from Australia are here to support the Fowler family and will not form part of the BC RCMP investigative team here in Canada”.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=389706111901542

Lucas’ father arrived in Vancouver on 20 July. Towards the end of his stay he visited the ranch where Lucas last worked to collect his son’s belongings. On 2 August he was back in Australia attending his son’s funeral. Neither he nor his two officers had any say as to how the investigation was conducted.

 

[Trooper]

The girl at the little shop was alone. She was in a remote place. They could have just walked back in with their weapon and kill her the way they wanted. I am sure they saw plenty of people alone on their trip. I am sure they didn't lack of opportunities to kill if they wanted to. JMO

I am tehre is any evidence known at the moment to conclude the killings happened the way you describe it. It could have been panicky and fast JMO

There isn't any evidence that it was fast. My theory, with respect, is as workable as yours. Do you think , each time they killed, they panicked? . that each time was a murder committed in a total state of utter panic and terror? . What was terrifying about Miss Deese, or Mr Fowler, or, god bless him, Prof Dyck?. nothin.



Is the working premise then, that they sidled up to Miss Deese and suddenly went into panic mode? then , ditto panic mode for Mr Fowler. >? then, 500 klms later, 4 days later they see Prof Dyck and re enter panic mode? .

 

[JudgeJudi]

The vast majority of media reports containing comments about K and B by friends, acquaintances or family members (excluding AS) came during the time the two were only considered missing, prior to the RCMPs announcement declaring them armed and dangerous suspects on July 23rd. Between the 19th and 23rd for all anyone knew they were only missing, perhaps murdered by the same person who killed LD, maybe kidnapped, wandering lost in the bush having escaped a madman, or were safe hundreds of miles away, the truck and camper either sold or stolen.

During those first few days nobody is going to speak poorly of missing persons because the best outcome would’ve been for them to have been found alive and well, having escaped some sort of horrible crisis, innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Later, I strongly disagree that SM would be rife with stories of diabolical interactions. Anyone with information would’ve had the opportunity to talk to police. Otherwise I’d imagine friends and acquaintances are feeling absolutely devastated about what occurred and seeking SM notoriety only because they knew K and B is the exact opposite of grief, sadness and maybe even guilt in their own behaviour or by not having recognizing red flags.

Those who are personally connected to this horrible tragedy are no doubt experiencing personal emotions quite apart from the distanced general public who have been following this case somewhat like a dramatic movie, waiting to hear the ending. I have no expectation upon either SM or MSM to the story because they don’t know the facts.

The absence of information cannot support an accurate theory IMO.

I would add that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

moo. about the broken glass in back right door. it is a known problem on that type van of that vintage for the inside door handle to not work or at best be hard to work. if someone was trapped in the van breaking out the window and trying to get to the outside handle to open the door would be the best option for escape. the right hand door MUST open before the left hand door can open. there is no option to open the left hand door until the right hand door is open. I own a van of this vintage. I don't drive it anymore. my rear door has been repaired multiple times over the years that I still drove it. left and right viewed as from outside back.

When Trevor Pierre went to secure the scene, he found both right hand doors were open.

I've spent untold hours considering the broken glass in the rear right window and have viewed more than 100 images of car windows that had been shot from outside. The problem is, it is virtually never stated what sort of firearm was used and most of the images were small round holes. I've learned that high velocity rounds often result in small, tidy holes with little glass fracturing, whereas low velocity bullets will cause more damage to the glass. That led me to think that maybe it wasn't a rifle that shattered the window. So what next?

Then I considered that if two people approached the van, one from either side, LF and CD couldn't leave via any door. I reached the same conclusion as you - that perhaps they broke it in an attempt to flee. Next question - what would they use to do this? I had an aha moment. Maybe they had a gas bottle in case they decided to camp occasionally in other than formal campgrounds. Gas bottles are heavy even when empty. This idea was reinforced when I saw the image of the burnt-out truck. There were 2 gas bottles.



This would mean that if they were inside the truck when shot, their bodies would have been removed from the van in order for the shooters to loot it. It would also mean that there would be gunshot residue on their bodies and clothing.

"In a global game changer for gun crime, Flinders University forensic scientists have for the first time matched gunshot residue with specific brands of ammunition."

This is a really interesting article written in 2016. Could it be the thing that links all 3 murders? At least it's something to consider.

https://phys.org/news/2016-08-technique-gunshot-residue-specific-ammunition.html

 

[JudgeJudi]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I would think the officers were probably close colleagues providing support in the most awful circumstances. There is nothing nonsense about this, his son had just been murdered in cold blood. If he wants to bring support, he can bring whoever he wants.

LF's father didn't ask for support, the NSW Police Service offered it.

Homicide squad detectives from New South Wales have flown to Canada to help liaise with the family and Canadian authorities.

"The man is the son of a serving officer and as such we are providing support to him and his family," police said in a statement.

Policeman's son and his girlfriend shot dead in Canada, NSW police say

 

[JudgeJudi]

Some media outlets (such as the Guardian) did report NSW police were going to assist the family: NSW police to assist family after death of Sydney man Lucas Fowler in Canada Other reports were not quite correct, assuming the officers were going to assist with the investigation: Son of NSW Police chief inspector and girlfriend found dead in Canada

The Guardian originally published the article on 20 July with an incorrect headline which was changed to "NSW police to assist family" etc. They added this at the foot of the article:

• This story was amended on 22 July 2019 to correct an earlier report that the NSW detectives would actively assist the RCMP in its investigation.

NSW police to assist family after death of Sydney man Lucas Fowler in Canada | New South Wales | The Guardian

Edited to correct error and add link.

 

[srper2]

LF's father didn't ask for support, the NSW Police Service offered it.

Homicide squad detectives from New South Wales have flown to Canada to help liaise with the family and Canadian authorities.

"The man is the son of a serving officer and as such we are providing support to him and his family," police said in a statement.

Policeman's son and his girlfriend shot dead in Canada, NSW police say

Yes, I was replying to another person's post which has since been modsnipped!

 

[srper2]

The Guardian originally published the article on 20 July with an incorrect headline which was changed to "NSW police to assist family" etc. They added this at the foot of the article:

• This story was amended on 22 July 2019 to correct an earlier report that the NSW detectives would actively assist the RCMP in its investigation.

NSW police to assist family after death of Sydney man Lucas Fowler in Canada | New South Wales | The Guardian

Edited to correct error and add link.

Yes, I know this and was replying to another person's post which has since been modsnipped!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I’m not quite sure what this is to prove? It’s not as if people who commit murder are always 100% downright mean and bad so that everyone around them is living in a constant state of fear. If you’ve followed any murder trials, very seldom is that so.

In fact it’s common for family member and friends to have no idea, to be absolutely shocked, sometimes to the point of totally denying the truth in the face of concrete proof beyond conviction of guilt.

If opinions of friends and relatives told the story, we wouldn’t require police to conduct murder investigations or collect evidence.

I agree with all your comments. A perfect example of your second para. is family annihilator Henri van Breda in South Africa who murdered his parents and brother and came within a hair's breadth of murdering his younger sister. He got 3 life sentences plus 15 years for attempted murder. His aunt (mother's sister) still believes he's innocent and he has the support of a few other family members.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<rs&bbm>

I'm not finding those direct quotes anywhere but here at WS from your post. Do you have an MSM link please?

I think this is the article.

They were 'really nice kids' says Alberta man who inadvertently helped 2 BC teen fugitives

The heading is “They were ‘really nice kids’ but they are not direct quotes and some things aren't mentioned at all.

“When asked more details about the encounter and the teens’ behaviour, he said he wasn’t sure which teen seemed to be the leader.

Not sure. I think Kam was but Bryer was the one doing all the work. “

“Kam was the driver and he was older but Bryer has the psycho look.”

There’s nothing about a gun in the pants only “The way Bryer was holding his pants pacing, the way they were looking at me assessing me and a bunch of other things.”

 

[srper2]

There could have been so many scenarios in this awful murder. Such a waste of young lives. Looking again at the photos of the van on the side of the highway, it looks like the rear window was smashed from the outside as there is a distinct patch in the gravel below the door about the size of a footprint where a foot or feet have scuffed around the stones. Almost like would happen if someone was bracing to smash the window and also if they were pointing a gun into the broken window or attempting to force the rear door open. I can't see much glass, but the photo is low resolution. If the idea was to smash windows and force the occupants, out, if there were two people, wouldn't one have smashed the rear door and the other smashed the side door window at the same time? The resolution is too low for me to make out what the white thing is right beside the scuffed gravel patch, possibly a white candy or icecream wrapper? Maybe whatever it is has been something that provided some link/evidence? I have also wondered about the black tyre skid marks showing behind the rear tyres in the pic from the rear and also showing quite long skid marks from the front tyres in the side pic. There doesn't appear to be any damage marks to indicate the van was pushed by another vehicle while parked, so maybe they just pulled over at some speed and skidded in the gravel when stopping. (Although I have had cars run into the rear of my old car and not leave a scratch, so if someone shunted their van along to terrify them, leaving the skid marks from the tyres, maybe no damage would show). I had also originally thought the van had tinted rear windows, but after looking again, they don't seem to be and there don't seem to be any curtains, so somebody could have looked inside and seen exactly where the occupants were and who they were with a torch. One thing I feel is clear, though, that Chynna and Lucas would have wanted to be right next to each other in this situation, but whoever was in control had them apart. The positions their bodies were reportedly left in still make me feel they were dragged and /or rolled over by one person (because they had both been positioned similarly). Two people each moving/rolling over a body would have done this differently. (I haven't added the pics because they are already in multiple threads here, and all my own thoughts and opinions!).

 

[sandbar]

Every case I've followed on websleuths has involved massive speculation on guilt, motive and psychology of individuals named as suspects. By the time the case comes to trial, it may have already been so thoroughly hashed over that the trial merely confirms many posters beliefs. That's not a problem, this isn't a court of law.

Point taken.

I will say, though that CDN WSers are potentially part of the jury pool for CDN trials. God help us all if the people who are SO quick to judge K&B guilty on circumstantial evidence ever make it to the jury box, for real.

 

[sandbar]

Exactly.... I have always questioned this as well.

MO
I think it's a pretty well-known phenomenon for eye witnesses to be unreliable after a certain point...it's not a moral failing, and it's not specific to this person or this case.

 

[sandbar]

At the end of the day, he saw them 15 minutes and knows nothing about them. JMO

Exactly...
and neither do we

 

[srper2]

I posted the article upthread regarding the purchase.

I don’t think AS would have had any communication about what they purchased in Meadowlake... BUT he could very well suspect it and yes I think it is another matter to address in an inquest if the purchase made was weapon related.

I don't think AS would have been suspecting that KM and BS actually had guns initially and was surprised when he found out that they did have guns when their bodies were found. Around the Meadowlake time, I think he would have still been believing they were suspects, but not the murderers, despite his pannicky "blaze of glory" statements (My opinion!).

 

[SnooperDuper]

The manner of death is different to the cause of death. The RCMP was referring to the manner of Prof. Dycks death in that it was a matter of 'gunshot violence.'

The RCMP has not said how Dyck died, and if you have different information, please share the link, because I haven't seen it.

The coroner says:

No cause of death has been determined in Dyck’s case; the B.C. coroner’s service says the investigation is ongoing.

‘It’s not an easy thing’: Father of B.C. murder suspect says he saw part of video recorded before son’s suicide

 

[modernpenny]

There isn't any evidence that it was fast. My theory, with respect, is as workable as yours. Do you think , each time they killed, they panicked? . that each time was a murder committed in a total state of utter panic and terror? . What was terrifying about Miss Deese, or Mr Fowler, or, god bless him, Prof Dyck?. nothin.



Is the working premise then, that they sidled up to Miss Deese and suddenly went into panic mode? then , ditto panic mode for Mr Fowler. >? then, 500 klms later, 4 days later they see Prof Dyck and re enter panic mode? .

Hello, can you clarify about the girl in the little shop? Was there another murder? I'm sorry, I've been away from the country and have fallen terribly behind on the threads. Or was this just someone they could have had the opportunity to murder but did not?

 

[modernpenny]

Hi Sleuths!

I was backpacking around Europe for a month and am terribly behind on the case. I definitely do not have time to go through all the threads. I left right around the time they found the bodies and deemed it suicide.

From what I can gather, we are really no closer to "why" except for the troubled up bringing and that Kam and Bryer have a non released video of their last wishes only available to family.

Would anyone be so kind to get me up to speed with anything I may have missed?

While travelling and having all the experiences I did, I thought of them and was saddened by the waste of their lives from the road they went down. Theyll never be able to experience the beauty life has to offer.

Backpacked around the Baltics and thought of Chynna and Lucas meeting in Croatia. So very very sad.