Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

[Lalalacasbah]

I had a thought about the gas can Bryer was seen purchasing at the gas station in Whitehorse on the afternoon of the 15th. Could it have been that after killing Lucas and Chynna the previous night, Kam and Bryer wanted to start burning their crime scenes? Perhaps a realization they came to whilst driving off into the late night after the first murder. In other words, burn the bodies and their vehicles after looting them? I don't think they initially wanted to give up the Dodge and Camper. In fact, I have to wonder if they were going to try and kill that person 25 miles West of Haines Junction the night of the 17th and burn him right on the side of the road rather than kill him and steal his vehicle. Here's the thing though, they were seen on the side of the road with the hood up on the pickup on the previous afternoon of the 16th. So it's possible yes, they did want a new vehicle. Still, I have to wonder if they only wanted to kill, loot and burn the crime scenes, then eventually came to the conclusion they have to get rid of the Dodge because it was becoming a serious liability. I'm really curious of how much trouble the pickup gave them before the 16th or if that was the first time it started acting up? I mean consider this, they were in Whitehorse the afternoon of the 15th, then they were East of Whitehorse (just outside of town heading East from Whitehorse as I've come to understand it with this Kilometer Marker 1435) pulled over on the 16th. Then on the evening of the 17th they were back in Whitehorse, then later that same night they were a little over 2 hours West of Whitehorse, West of Haines Junction.

I definitely think any theft and the burning/blow up style of the cars added to the adrenaline and excitement. And of course, would get media talking once RCMP figured out what was happening.

Sounds like they wanted to go big in blow up style too. To buy the jerrycan to pour gas on the vehicles before lighting up, that's a big show. If they were low on funds (I think they were?) interesting to waste gas and gas money to light fires!

 

[Kubirai]

I highlighted key phrases in the front page summary at RCMP website.

came across Lucas Fowler's van
came across Leonard Dyck

So RCMP is probably telling us that Leonard Dyck was outside his RAV4, when KM/BS came across him.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I don't want to go on about psychopath stuff but thought to note...

Not all psychopaths are serial killers or even killers. Many are CEOs of corporations and/or high functioning people in society who never kill in their life! Makes one wonder who their friends and coworkers are lol... Not funny really but a tad freaky.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I highlighted key phrases in the front page summary at RCMP website.

came across Lucas Fowler's van
came across Leonard Dyck

So RCMP is probably telling us that Leonard Dyck was outside his RAV4, when KM/BS came across him.

I was wrong in my theory about an interaction with Chynna and Lucas prior to the crime. I didn't think it was that random as a drive by and happening upon.

Guess it goes to show K&B wanted to kill period and did so indiscriminately hence the big manhunt once police put pieces together. It was wrong place/wrong time, sad.

 

[Tilly23]

Interesting, Bryer was changing his shirts but there's Kam still wearing "Cathulhu." Why was he not changing shirts at least? I mean the smell alone after 2-3 days.. Yikes. The Thompson photo the 22nd, Meadow Lake the 21st and now Dease Lake the 18th. I would have felt so gross.

I noticed that he had the same shirt on, too. But they may have done laundry at a campsite, and he may not have had the shirt on for days without having washed it.

Maybe it enhanced Kam's schtick/idea of himself... he's so tough and rough, he can hack it! He's all in survivor mode maybe.

I wonder if he had several of the same shirts. Maybe it was like a costume for when he was interacting with people?

We did hear that he was wearing different clothing when the bodies were found:

"Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls."​

quote from Globe & Mail article at How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

When in the woods, he wore his survival/military soldier costume?

MOO.

 

[Betty P]

@Betty P I thought it was Porter Creek too but note Hong says they only received a report about that. The stills are from Dease Lake outside the Super A gas station.

From Twitter: "The pair were next seen at a gas station in Porter Creek on July 17, around 6:30 p.m. I note here, the News at one point got stills from security footage taken at the Super A appearing to show McLeod and Schmegelsky inside the store with a truck/camper parked outside. Police at the time would not confirm the still's authenticity to us, but it now appears that it was legitimate."

Thanks for that correction. Perhaps they were on their way back from Haines Junction. Still wondering why they went so far north, then doubled back. Were they just randomly driving around looking for new victims, but avoiding their previous crime scene? At that point, they knew they were free and clear, LE wasn't looking for them. Assume they were watching the news.

 

[KR72]

I don't want to go on about psychopath stuff but thought to note...

Not all psychopaths are serial killers or even killers. Many are CEOs of corporations and/or high functioning people in society who never kill in their life! Makes one wonder who their friends and coworkers are lol... Not funny really but a tad freaky.

Yup, most sociopaths and psychopaths aren't actually dangerous killers, and psychopathic traits can actually be helpful in certain careers.

More recently, some researchers, ourselves included, have speculated that people with pronounced psychopathic traits may be found disproportionately in certain professional niches, such as politics, business, law enforcement, firefighting, special operations military services and high-risk sports

Not all psychopaths are criminals – some psychopathic traits are actually linked to success

 

[LoisLane]

I wonder where the airsoft gun ended up.

the neighbor would have had no idea he was being mirrored. That's the point.

I wonder if the neighbour had any wartime stories or vintage guns.

ETA.
Airsoft comment was not meant for this post

 

[Kubirai]

Thanks for that correction. Perhaps they were on their way back from Haines Junction. Still wondering why they went so far north, then doubled back. Were they just randomly driving around looking for new victims, but avoiding their previous crime scene? At that point, they knew they were free and clear, LE wasn't looking for them. Assume they were watching the news.

I have been trying to find out if/when Whitehorse to Haines Junction area road signs first mentioned police were looking for dashcam videos from July 14/15.

They were looking for a better vehicle, but wanted to kill the driver too, that's why they kept driving on the Alaska Highway.

They turned back after realizing they could be arrested at the border. They switched to Highway 37 at Watson Lake, to avoid going past Liard River murder site.

 

[LoisLane]

Jackie Hong on Twitter

Photos that weren’t included in the report. This was on the 17th.

According to the tweet these images were supplied to media but they did not publish (not sure the date they were supplied) because police would not verify their authenticity.

Sounds like the Haines Junction attempt was also not published for the same reason.

So reporters are aware and informed but because police won’t verify they are not published. Frustrating for sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

According to the tweet these images were supplied to media but they did not publish (not sure the date they were supplied) because police would not verify their authenticity.

Sounds like the Haines Junction attempt was also not published for the same reason.

So reporters are aware and informed but because police won’t verify they are not published. Frustrating for sure.

Reporters wouldn’t have received the stills until after July 19th because prior to the burning truck and camper hitting the radar and the two deemed missing, nobody was on the lookout for them. During one of the PCs, police told reporters they were focusing where they might presently be, not their prior route so that’s probably why there was no need to publish or confirm prior Yukon travels, since police knew they were no longer anywhere near there by the time the truck was found burning.

 

[MistyWaters]

In the old days, psychopathic killers had to settle for having active fantasy lives, saving souvenirs and reliving their crimes, looking at magazines or violent images, etc. They disconnect from reality into their own world, where they make the rules and do as they please with no consequences.

Their plan to float down the Nelson River to "hijack" a ship in Hudson Bay and escape to Africa or elsewhere sounds exactly like a plot from a video game.

While video games may not cause people to become psychopathic killers, it does a much more efficient job of organizing and escalating those kinds of pathology and aberrant behavior. K&B were likely influenced and inspired by their gaming addiction to take it to the next level. Living so long in that fantasy world kept them from realizing the harsh consequences, even to the point of being less concerned about their own imminent deaths than about making sure everyone knew they "won" at their chosen game.

I agree, although video games might’ve not been a direct motivation, it sure seems to have heavily influenced their mindset. It reminds me of video games where all obstacles are the result of an imaginary war against zombies, where even ordinary looking characters might be zombies in disguise. Players fight, kill and flee to save themselves from the villainous zombies. I have huge distain for those kind of violent games because online killing is a necessary part of winning. Aka - No remorse, killing is perceived as a requirement of survival.

I think you’re right, in their minds they “won” by escaping and they wanted everyone to know it. And even though they eventually took their own lives, the zombies didn’t kill them first and signing out was really no different than flicking an “off” switch. JMO

 

[katydid23]

In the old days, psychopathic killers had to settle for having active fantasy lives, saving souvenirs and reliving their crimes, looking at magazines or violent images, etc. They disconnect from reality into their own world, where they make the rules and do as they please with no consequences.

Their plan to float down the Nelson River to "hijack" a ship in Hudson Bay and escape to Africa or elsewhere sounds exactly like a plot from a video game.

While video games may not cause people to become psychopathic killers, it does a much more efficient job of organizing and escalating those kinds of pathology and aberrant behavior. K&B were likely influenced and inspired by their gaming addiction to take it to the next level. Living so long in that fantasy world kept them from realizing the harsh consequences, even to the point of being less concerned about their own imminent deaths than about making sure everyone knew they "won" at their chosen game.

I agree with the above.
I also worry that some of the most violent games 'desensitise' some young people to that violence. It becomes nothing to imagine hunting down your prey and shooting them in the head.

In fact, it is celebrated and brings you rewards in the game, elevating you.

 

[CinNC]

I'm thinking about the reporting regarding videos taken on a cell phone. As several posters have noted, this differs from the final report which clearly says the videos were taken on LD's camera.

As I recall, the RCMP were very tightlipped about even admitting that the videos existed. We found out about them because someone leaked that family members had been shown the "last will and testament" one.

I think it was AS then pursuing being able to see the video of his son that started the idea that the videos were recorded on a cell phone. Didn't AS say in an interview that they were recorded on Bryer's "pay as you go" Samsung phone?

My guess is that AS was trying to put the pieces together and that he assumed, because he knew his son had the phone that he had given him, that they must have used that phone for the videos. He spoke about it like he knew it for a fact, because he believed it was so.

I think it was as a result of this, that some of the media started to say that the bodies had been found with a cell phone with videos. In today's world, it does not seem like an unreasonable leap to think that if an 18 or 19 year old who is known to have a cell phone is taking videos, they are taking them with a cell phone.

I don't think the RCMP ever said anything publicly about the videos until the September 27 press conference. They indirectly acknowledged the existence of at least the last will and testament one because they had to respond to the legal action brought by AS and his lawyer to allow AS to see the "last will and testament" video. Remember the lawyer tweeted a copy of an email she received from the RCMP? And then we found out about AS signing a non-disclosure agreement and being able to see the video at the RCMP offices?

The only reference to the suspects' cell phones in the final RCMP report is to KM's damaged SIM card being found at the Dease Lake scene. It appears to just be shoddy reporting on the part of some journalists that they are still talking about the videos as if they were recorded on a cell phone found with the bodies.

All MOO.

I strongly agree. Great critica thinking, Tilly!

 

[FactFinder3000]

I agree, although video games might’ve not been a direct motivation, it sure seems to have heavily influenced their mindset. It reminds me of video games where all obstacles are the result of an imaginary war against zombies, where even ordinary looking characters might be zombies in disguise. Players fight, kill and flee to save themselves from the villainous zombies. I have huge distain for those kind of violent games because online killing is a necessary part of winning. Aka - No remorse, killing is perceived as a requirement of survival.

I think you’re right, in their minds they “won” by escaping and they wanted everyone to know it. And even though they eventually took their own lives, the zombies didn’t kill them first and signing out was really no different than flicking an “off” switch. JMO

Yep. I disagree with the idea that playing violent video games generally leads to violent behavior, but in this case it does seem to have played a role.

In fact, I believe Bryer was the ideological leader. He's the one who would get a little too excited while playing violent video games and excitedly said, "can you imagine if this were real?" Based on a multitude of things we've heard about Bryer, I believe he had homicidal and suicidal fantasies for a long time. (A point I have made many times now, I might add. And I have to say I now feel vindicated vs those who have been claiming they were just a couple of basically nice boys who made a few mistakes. Sorry, I just had to say that because I found those ongoing claims to be so incredibly frustrating.)

It's absolutely clear to me that Bryer was a complete lunatic and the ideological leader. Kam may have been the logistical leader, who decided what they were going to do next, but it was Bryer who had the deviant fantasies and somehow got Kam on board.

The one thing that puzzles me is how Bryer was able to convince Kam to commit suicide. He must have had a very persuasive argument, because I doubt Kam was suicidal.

moo.

 

[CinNC]

I don't want to go on about psychopath stuff but thought to note...

Not all psychopaths are serial killers or even killers. Many are CEOs of corporations and/or high functioning people in society who never kill in their life! Makes one wonder who their friends and coworkers are lol... Not funny really but a tad freaky.

I didn't want to post any seemingly wise-a** comments about the descriptions of psychopaths, but as a parallel to what you've just said - and I truly, sincerely believe this - it sounds like the description of a lot of politicians. None who shall be named and my own views are NOT in conjunction with current news - I'm just saying that in general, the description of a psychopath can apply to many highly public government figures from all over the world. I have always thought that a huge ego and unrealistic views of oneself as a "common" member of society were almost, ALMOST, prerequisites to flourish in the current political climate and remain there without being chased away with one's tail between one's legs.

 

[CinNC]

I wonder if he had several of the same shirts. Maybe it was like a costume for when he was interacting with people?

We did hear that he was wearing different clothing when the bodies were found:

"Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls."​

quote from Globe & Mail article at How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

When in the woods, he wore his survival/military soldier costume?

MOO.

I have to wonder, though, if the rain pants weren't LD's. I honestly doubt whether KM and AS had enough foresight (or money) to think to bring foul weather gear along. They would have had to have known where they were ultimately headed.

While there are inexpensive versions of foul weather gear, the only type worth owning (IMO) are the quality of Helly Hansen, Gill, etc. I used to sail on deep sea-going tankers and the cheap stuff would just tear and fall apart if you even brushed up against something rough. Nobody who needed such "clothing" on a regular basis would have purchased the junky crap a person might find in a dollar store. Not that the two killers made common-sense decisions, of course.

 

[Zella]

I have to wonder, though, if the rain pants weren't LD's. I honestly doubt whether KM and AS had enough foresight (or money) to think to bring foul weather gear along. They would have had to have known where they were ultimately headed.

While there are inexpensive versions of foul weather gear, the only type worth owning (IMO) are the quality of Helly Hansen, Gill, etc. I used to sail on deep sea-going tankers and the cheap stuff would just tear and fall apart if you even brushed up against something rough. Nobody who needed such "clothing" on a regular basis would have purchased the junky crap a person might find in a dollar store. Not that the two killers made common-sense decisions, of course.

Prof Dyck was approximately 5'8" compared to Kam's 6'4" and a much heavier-built man. I don't think Kam could wear his rain pants even if he wanted to. MOO

 

[FactFinder3000]

It's clear from AS's latest quotes that he still wants to blame the Kam for what happened. He doesn't want to believe that Bryer could have come up with the gun on his own. He wants to continue to believe that the gun came from Kam's side, thereby seeing them as responsible for everything that happened instead of his own son. I have a feeling he believes that if his son actually had a gun, he would have mentioned it at some point.

Just as AS blames Kam, I have no doubt that the McLeods are blaming Bryer. In fact, this quote:

McLeod says what the family does know is that their son is kind, considerate and a caring young man who has always been concerned about other people’s feelings. bbm

I always felt that perhaps there was a bit of a hidden message here, namely: "and Bryer isn't." It's interesting to me that they would mention being concerned about other people's feelings. A lack of empathy is a core tenant of psychopathy. They were basically saying, "well our son isn't a psychopath." If it's true that Kam was concerned about other people's feelings, and wasn't just faking it, that would indeed tend to indicate that he was not a psychopath.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Based on that excellent article that went up Friday from the Globe and Mail I wanted to post the photos and an updated map on where exactly they found Kam and Bryer. I also included all the evidence markers in the Google Maps image I made. Interesting, Bryer and Kam did not make it as far as we were lead to believe according to the map shown in that mini video documentary with the Mayor of Gillam. The original map that went up had given them about an additional mile further down the river. Also notice, the spot where they killed themselves. I can't for the life of me believe they were ever trapped there or couldn't get back up the slope. The bottom of those cliff faces, absolutely, they would have been trapped. But those toppled trees falling down into the river where the bank collapsed would have made for fairly easy climbing back up to the woods. They chose this spot when they were ready.