Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[NJSleuth91]

I would like to point out Kam clearly had issues before this. The fact that he had to attend a special school for people with behavioral or intellectual issues means this. The school he graduated from a school to provide special learning environment for students who are unable to attend a traditional school.

From what I've read online, the VAST program doesn't seem to be for people with severe emotional disturbances or anything like that. It seems to be mainly a program that provides more individualized instruction for people who aren't getting good grades and are at risk of dropping out (the dropout rate is high in Port Alberni from what I've read, so I think they're trying to mitigate this). I think he probably had a learning disability. But I would be surprised if either of them were diagnosed with any mental or behavioral issues prior to this, since no information has come out about that from any source.

 

[DVCal]

From what I've read online, the VAST program doesn't seem to be for people with severe emotional disturbances or anything like that. It seems to be mainly a program that provides more individualized instruction for people who aren't getting good grades and are at risk of dropping out (the dropout rate is high in Port Alberni from what I've read, so I think they're trying to mitigate this). I think he probably had a learning disability. But I would be surprised if either of them were diagnosed with any mental or behavioral issues prior to this, since no information has come out about that from any source.

AS described it as a Special Education environment, which does sound like something for people with a learning disability. This may also explain their video talking about taking a aboat to Africa or Europe. To them that might have sounded very reasonable.

 

[SiciC]

I would like to point out Kam clearly had issues before this. The fact that he had to attend a special school for people with behavioral or intellectual issues means this. The school he graduated from a school to provide special learning environment for students who are unable to attend a traditional school.

I've thought about that too, but then I considered that lots of people go to alternative schools for lots of different reasons, doesn't necessarily mean they have issues .. Could be as simple as being a bit lazy in school and not wanting to attend regular classes all day. One of my good friends did this for high school because her mother passed away and she did not know her father, and she needed a flexible school schedule so she could work during the day to support herself. Those types of schools usually give you online work or modules to be completed and then handed in, instead of sitting through classes all day. This is simply beneficial for some students, doesn't mean they all have learning or behaviour problems. I do wonder why Kam went to that sort of school when he apparently came from a fairly well-off family.. He did actually graduate though, that's something. I mean we know now that he had issues, but the school thing wouldn't have been a red flag. Maybe he was a bit of a slacker in school. Maybe he did that sort of schooling because Bryer also did it. Maybe his parents thought it would benefit him... Who knows. Maybe the schooling was connected to personal/mental issues.. We don't really know anything of his home life, his childhood or mental health prior to this event...

 

[NJSleuth91]

AS described it as a Special Education environment, which does sound like something for people with a learning disability. This may also explain their video talking about taking a aboat to Africa or Europe. To them that might have sounded very reasonable.

An alternative school is a special education environment. This sounds like what the VAST program provides.

Special education (also known as special-needs education, aided education, exceptional education, special ed. or SPED) is the practice of educating students in a way that addresses their individual differences and needs. Ideally, this process involves the individually planned and systematically monitored arrangement of teaching procedures, adapted equipment and materials, and accessible settings. These interventions are designed to help individuals with special needs achieve a higher level of personal self-sufficiency and success in school and in their community which may not be available if the student were only given access to a typical classroom education.

Special education includes learning disabilities (such as dyslexia), communication disorders, emotional and behavioral disorders (such as ADHD), physical disabilities (such as osteogenesis imperfecta, cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, spina bifida, and Friedreich's ataxia), and developmental disabilities (such as autistic spectrum disorders including autism and Asperger syndrome and intellectual disability) and many other disabilities.[1] Students with these kinds of disabilities are likely to benefit from additional educational services such as different approaches to teaching, the use of technology, a specifically adapted teaching area, or a resource room.

Now, I think these guys were not very smart in general, but more of an average everyday level of "not very smart." If they had some profound intellectual disabilities, ie. very low IQ, I think it would have been mentioned by now, and also I don't think their parents would have let them go off on their own in the first place. None of their friends or family have mentioned it, and their friends don't seem to be intellectually disabled from their interviews. Bryer's dad even described him as "intelligent" (I mean...personally I disagree on that one, based on the evidence...but still....) Also we already know Bryer had learning disabilities (it was mentioned in the 60 Minutes interview). But learning disabilities don't necessarily have anything to do with IQ.

As I said before, I think there are only two options with their boat comment: a) they were making outlandish statements to be dramatic or even trolling, b) they were delusional.

 

[SiciC]

As I said before, I think there are only two options with their boat comment: a) they were making outlandish statements to be dramatic or even trolling, b) they were delusional.

I think those two options are exactly it. I'd lean towards option B. I don't think these guys genuinely believed they could take a small boat, with little to no supplies, and make it across the ocean to Africa. What were they gonna do in Africa? Live off the land? Seriously though, if they really were serious about that and not joking, they were losing their minds by the time they said it. I don't think they were always delusional.. They had to be somewhat intelligent or at least had presence of mind, or were just very cunning.... they did make it across the country unscathed during a massive hunt for them, and without rousing suspicion at their stops along the way. Either way these two were quite unique in their thinking, to say the least.

 

[Jealoushe]

Yeah I can't see Bryer building such a large gun in his grandma's house, especially with how small the house is. I mean, in that picture with the Airsoft rifle he isn't wearing shoes, most likely because his grandma didn't allow shoes in the house...so if he wouldn't even wear shoes in her house for a picture, I doubt he would hide an entire gun in her house and sneak it in and out. It makes a lot more sense that it was hidden on Kam's property because there were more places to hide it, or since we now know Kam legally owned the truck, it may have even been hidden in the truck.

I also would like to know if the police actually do think Bryer built the gun himself or if it's just one possibility. Because I've heard older SKS rifles often have had parts replaced on them from other rifles, and can be purchased very cheaply.



I wonder if there's some kind of secret support group for family members of mass killers. If I was them I would try to contact Sue Klebold because she is an advocate in this field now.

Didn't Dahmer rape and kill in his Gmas house and went unnoticed?

Grandmas, are usually older and oblivious. Massive stereotype but it would be beyond easy for a teen boy to hide a gun from Gma. Especially if Gma thinks the grandson is someone who would never ever do such thing.

Also, Gma might have known and not cared. Plenty of families have turned a blind eye to many things, and many worse things for decades.

I am surprised how many posters don't realize how easy it is for killers to hide things from the people around them, including their own dark personality.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I think there needs to be a public inquest/inquiry into this case. There are way too many missing pieces. We may have gotten the timeline, the evidence they did indeed do these crimes, but there is way too much loose ends.

I still don't believe these two were in their right minds. Even psychopathic people have a history and signs of such. Even if they aren't recognized right away. There hasn't been a single thing said about Kam that was negative. Psychopaths may be able to charm their victims but there is always a sign. There is no evidence of anyone bringing up little details after the fact. So I don't believe Kam was a psychopath.

It's obvious Bryer had some issues. Shitty childhood, parents who hated one another, some kind of learning disability and really hadn't accomplished anything: no driver's license, not graduating, no PAL license, and had to rely on everyone else to get around. There had to be some kind of mental health issues going on, and that really should be explored. For the simple reason to prevent a crime like this from reoccurring.

I don't think we even need to see the final video to be able to a least speculate that there could be a reason for their apathy, their lack of remorse, or for their matter of fact that goes beyond them both being psychopaths with no feelings. Let's get real here, how many teens in their right mind would think they would be able to march to Hudson Bay, high jack a boat and sail to Africa.

I've been thinking, reading, and trying to make sense of this ever since the final, lacking in detail, report on the findings.

What are the results of the final toxicology report? Drugs and substances can alter one's emotions, numb them, cause confusion, and irrational thoughts they wouldn't have normally think of.

I think once everyone was told they were cold, showed no remorse, and were talking about going out and killing more people, they automatically assumed this was planned, they were psychopaths and cold-blooded murders. But what if that isn't the case? I know they killed innocent people and not disputing that, but if the country wants to prevent a similar situation, this particular case needs me to look at, and all possible scenarios, and a look deeper into what their mindset could have been leading up to and during this horrible road trip.

I think they didn't have enough money or really a plan on how to live until they found work. They were teenagers and teenagers even at 18/19 don't always plan. We don't know when Kam got his PAL card. So maybe he had the one rifle and wanted to get another one so he and Bryer could go hunting. I always felt like they got North rather fast. That is a lot of driving, even for two teenagers, so I believe they might have been doing some kind of substance to stay away.

No one really knows what happened when they stopped at the van. All we can conclude was they killed those two people. Was it a robbery that went bad? Was it pent up anger coming out? Who knows. But what about directly after? If these two were suicidal, depressed, or overwhelmed they could have been on the mindset, that they were bad, and that there was no going back from what they did.

Because every action of that had been rash, disorganized, and messy. I believe they just gave up at this point, didn't care anymore, and their morals went out the window. I believe there weren't any coherent thoughts going on. I doubt they got much sleep either.

They also spent a few days in Whitehorse and area. Maybe they had moments where they were trying to push away the thoughts of what they did and pretend it never happened. Maybe look for jobs and realize that there wasn't a lot up there for unskilled workers. (I had checked and there wasn't a lot of jobs in Whitehorse and the surrounding area that those two would likely qualify for)

I have read that extreme stress can regress people. What to say they didn't resort to scattered thoughts, aggression, and impulsiveness. Keep in mind before they went on this trip there were no reports of violence from these two. They were described for the most part as kind and considerate young men. So if they were already on the "I give up, I'm a bad person train, combine that with the stress they could have likely just lost their mind, and all sense of right and wrong."

One can assume that they were under great stress, weren't sleeping well, and that their actions weren't well planned out. They likely had diminished concentration given that belongings were thrown everywhere at every crime scene, the path they took after Dease Lake especially didn't make much sense, and why would they drive all the way to Northern Manitoba, especially when they attempted to go to La Ronge and turned around and kept driving. These all indications that they had no idea what they were doing.

Also if they were in a state of impairment such as high on a substance, in withdrawal or in a state of delirium than maybe that could explain why they seemed so cold. They could have not been able to cognitively accept what they did, never mind have any true feelings right up to the moment their lives ended.

I really do think this case isn't cut and dry.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I think those two options are exactly it. I'd lean towards option B. I don't think these guys genuinely believed they could take a small boat, with little to no supplies, and make it across the ocean to Africa. What were they gonna do in Africa? Live off the land? Seriously though, if they really were serious about that and not joking, they were losing their minds by the time they said it. I don't think they were always delusional.. They had to be somewhat intelligent or at least had presence of mind, or were just very cunning.... they did make it across the country unscathed during a massive hunt for them, and without rousing suspicion at their stops along the way. Either way these two were quite unique in their thinking, to say the least.

As I said before, I think it was very similar to how the Columbine shooters wrote in their "plan" that after blowing up their school and killing all 600 students, they were going to hijack a plane and crash it into NYC. The Columbine shooters actually had above-average intelligence. I'm sure they realized the hijacking part wasn't a feasible plan. But it was about being dramatic and expressing their anger. Like "if we could do this, we would, because that's how much we hate the world." (Plus both Columbine shooters had this Dennis Reynolds-esque God complex sort of thing...who knows, maybe Kam and Bryer did as well.)

Didn't Dahmer rape and kill in his Gmas house and went unnoticed?

I was actually just reading about Dahmer recently. He did but she knew something was up. She kicked him out because of the "random men he was bringing over at all hours of the night, and weird odors coming from the basement and attic."

Grandmas, are usually older and oblivious. Massive stereotype but it would be beyond easy for a teen boy to hide a gun from Gma. Especially if Gma thinks the grandson is someone who would never ever do such thing.

It's possible. Her house just looks really tiny though, so that's the main thing that makes me think he wouldn't have hidden it there. If it was a handgun I would say yes, but that is a huge rifle. Hiding it in Kam's truck would have made more sense because nobody else would ever go looking through there because that was legally his truck. Although, again, who knows what system of logic these guys were operating on.

We also don't know how soon before the killing spree they got the second gun. It could have been just days before, also.

I am surprised how many posters don't realize how easy it is for killers to hide things from the people around them, including their own dark personality.

I'm not denying that people can hide things. But usually at least some people have some sense that all is not right. And with Bryer, some people did think he was weird. But nobody saw any signs for Kam. That's very interesting. Like even with those really charismatic, outgoing psychopaths like Ted Bundy, Paul Bernardo, etc. (and Kam wasn't even particularly charismatic or outgoing) at least some people saw some indication of their dark side years before their crimes were revealed.

 

[Jealoushe]

I'm not denying that people can hide things. But usually at least some people have some sense that all is not right. And with Bryer, some people did think he was weird. But nobody saw any signs for Kam. That's very interesting. Like even with those really charismatic, outgoing psychopaths like Ted Bundy, Paul Bernardo, etc. (and Kam wasn't even particularly charismatic or outgoing) at least some people saw some indication of their dark side years before their crimes were revealed.

To be fair, we don't know if anyone else didn't think this. I know a lot of their gamer online friends seemed to not be surprised.

But on the contrary, people like Russ Williams...go unnoticed right under LE eye. Gma could have been oblivious. She could have never left her room. She could have known and not cared. We just don't have enough info to make those assumptions.

I always used to think there had to be a "sign" at some point, but after being nearly killed in an attack by someone I thought I knew and knew they would never in a million years be violent, I realized how easy it is for some of these kinds to hide their true self.

 

[NJSleuth91]

To be fair, we don't know if anyone else didn't think this. I know a lot of their gamer online friends seemed to not be surprised.

Some of them weren't surprised about Bryer being involved, given the amount of obvious red flags beforehand. However everyone was surprised about Kam being involved from all the accounts I've seen.

I always used to think there had to be a "sign" at some point, but after being nearly killed in an attack by someone I thought I knew and knew they would never in a million years be violent, I realized how easy it is for some of these kinds to hide their true self.

As I've said before, the human brain is a stochastic system, highly prone to errors and anti-patterns. As they say in the finance world, "past performance does not guarantee future results."

 

[SovereignSnake]

I don't think they would have brought two guns if they didn't intend to use two guns. It also said in the report that both guns were used in Lucas and Chynna's murders.

@NJSleuth91 as always, very fair points and I do agree with you to an extent. Unless, they didn't trust that older gun and decided to buy a newer one just in case it failed on them, which, you, myself and a couple others are thinking perhaps it did. This could also have explained the two guns. You make a very good point though, Bryer and Kam perhaps did want to make it a team effort all along. A morbid bonding experience if you will. I also have to add, reading back over the report (for like the 25th time now seriously) you are correct, it does mention both guns were used in the Lucas and Chynna murders.

From the Report: "On July 24, 2019, the firearms lab provided preliminary findings to the investigators. There were two firearms used in the Fort Nelson homicide, both of 7.62 x 39 mm calibre. One of the guns used in Fort Nelson was used in the Dease Lake homicide."

Here's the thing though, how do they know both guns were fired at the Lucas and Chynna scene? I wished they had reported approximately how shell casings were found, both spent and unspent. It sounds like Kam and Bryer dropped some, being in a rush or nervous. That wouldn't surprise me at all if they were. It really bothers me though that they left the approximate number out of the report. Being identical guns and both using that same old 1975 ammunition, how can they be 100%? I have a doubt. I also find that 1975 ammunition concerning. I would be very weary of firing that old of ammo from any gun period. But as others said, they probably got it very cheap from someone's stockpile, an estate sale/garage sale or maybe even Craigslist? The fact they had this ancient ammo is a whole other mystery in and of itself. I found the gun Kam bought as well. It's about 285 dollars (US) without the tax. Not tragically expensive but not cheap either.

Chinese SKS Semi-Auto Rifle w/ Tapco Stock | Cabela's Canada

 

[dust bunny]

From what I've read online, the VAST program doesn't seem to be for people with severe emotional disturbances or anything like that. It seems to be mainly a program that provides more individualized instruction for people who aren't getting good grades and are at risk of dropping out (the dropout rate is high in Port Alberni from what I've read, so I think they're trying to mitigate this). I think he probably had a learning disability. But I would be surprised if either of them were diagnosed with any mental or behavioral issues prior to this, since no information has come out about that from any source.

 

[dust bunny]

I agree with this comment on the VAST program but I am curious about what, if anything, KM did in the year following his graduation. He graduated in 2018 and nowhere have I seen what he did or whether or where he worked in that year. It sounds like the only job he held was the 5 weeks he worked with BS at Walmart in the summer of 2019. Does anyone know?

 

[Vern]

He certainly could have borrowed a rifle but with AS history with the courts, it would be very unlikely he would have a PAL, which I believe you need for hunting tags.

Not required as long as you are with someone who has a PAL.

B.C. Resident Hunting - Province of British Columbia

Same for Yukon except they note that non-Yukon residents with a hunting permit/tags for Yukon must be accompanied by a guide or outfitter.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Here's the thing though, how do they know both guns were fired at the Lucas and Chynna scene?

Ballistics - Crime Museum
"Studying the markings found on a bullet or the impact a bullet made on any surface can establish exactly which gun the criminal used. Every firearm produces a slightly different and unique pattern on the shell-casing it fires; the bullet will therefore imprint a distinct pattern upon anything it hits. Once scientists have identified these markings they can easily match them to the appropriate firearm."

So they knew by the 24th that two guns were used in Lucas and Chynna's murders, and that one of those guns was the same one used in Professor Dyck's murder. After they got the guns themselves, they were able to say "these are the same guns that were used in the three murders."

I also find that 1975 ammunition concerning. I would be very weary of firing that old of ammo from any gun period. But as others said, they probably got it very cheap from someone's stockpile, an estate sale/garage sale or maybe even Craigslist? The fact they had this ancient ammo is a whole other mystery in and of itself.

It is weird, but they probably bought it off someone in a private sale, or found it in someone's attic or something. I have a theory on where they got it, based on other information in MSM about other purchases they made before July 12th, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to say.

I agree with this comment on the VAST program but I am curious about what, if anything, KM did in the year following his graduation. He graduated in 2018 and nowhere have I seen what he did or whether or where he worked in that year. It sounds like the only job he held was the 5 weeks he worked with BS at Walmart in the summer of 2019. Does anyone know?

I'm pretty sure he worked at Walmart for longer than the five weeks. One article said both of them had worked there for months, but Bryer's dad said Bryer only worked there five weeks after dropping out. However, Kam could have worked there for months. This theory is further supported because some Port Alberni residents who were interviewed said they remembered Kam working at Walmart and that he had good customer service skills. However, Kam and Bryer were working on the night shift during those five weeks when the store would not be open to the public. Therefore, it seems likely that Kam worked at Walmart for at least a few months on the day shift, and then switched to night shift for the last five weeks so that he could work with Bryer.

 

[1987]

@NJSleuth91 as always, very fair points and I do agree with you to an extent. Unless, they didn't trust that older gun and decided to buy a newer one just in case it failed on them, which, you, myself and a couple others are thinking perhaps it did. This could also have explained the two guns. You make a very good point though, Bryer and Kam perhaps did want to make it a team effort all along. A morbid bonding experience if you will. I also have to add, reading back over the report (for like the 25th time now seriously) you are correct, it does mention both guns were used in the Lucas and Chynna murders.

From the Report: "On July 24, 2019, the firearms lab provided preliminary findings to the investigators. There were two firearms used in the Fort Nelson homicide, both of 7.62 x 39 mm calibre. One of the guns used in Fort Nelson was used in the Dease Lake homicide."

Here's the thing though, how do they know both guns were fired at the Lucas and Chynna scene? I wished they had reported approximately how shell casings were found, both spent and unspent. It sounds like Kam and Bryer dropped some, being in a rush or nervous. That wouldn't surprise me at all if they were. It really bothers me though that they left the approximate number out of the report. Being identical guns and both using that same old 1975 ammunition, how can they be 100%? I have a doubt. I also find that 1975 ammunition concerning. I would be very weary of firing that old of ammo from any gun period. But as others said, they probably got it very cheap from someone's stockpile, an estate sale/garage sale or maybe even Craigslist? The fact they had this ancient ammo is a whole other mystery in and of itself. I found the gun Kam bought as well. It's about 285 dollars (US) without the tax. Not tragically expensive but not cheap either.

Chinese SKS Semi-Auto Rifle w/ Tapco Stock | Cabela's Canada

every gun will leave a different mark on bullet when fired. is like the firearms finger print.

 

[Kubirai]

Here's the thing though, how do they know both guns were fired at the Lucas and Chynna scene?

Same batch of bullets, but marked up by two different barrels.

 

[LoisLane]

It is weird, but they probably bought it off someone in a private sale, or found it in someone's attic or something. I have a theory on where they got it, based on other information in MSM about other purchases they made before July 12th, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to say.

SBM.
Do you mean the same place/dealer they acquired the engraved Nazi knife?

If so/if not why wouldn’t you be allowed to speculate this?

 

[NJSleuth91]

SBM.
Do you mean the same place/dealer they acquired the engraved Nazi knife?

If so/if not why wouldn’t you be allowed to speculate this?

I'm not sure what the legality of the sale would be.

 

[dust bunny]

Ballistics - Crime Museum
"Studying the markings found on a bullet or the impact a bullet made on any surface can establish exactly which gun the criminal used. Every firearm produces a slightly different and unique pattern on the shell-casing it fires; the bullet will therefore imprint a distinct pattern upon anything it hits. Once scientists have identified these markings they can easily match them to the appropriate firearm."

So they knew by the 24th that two guns were used in Lucas and Chynna's murders, and that one of those guns was the same one used in Professor Dyck's murder. After they got the guns themselves, they were able to say "these are the same guns that were used in the three murders."



It is weird, but they probably bought it off someone in a private sale, or found it in someone's attic or something. I have a theory on where they got it, based on other information in MSM about other purchases they made before July 12th, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to say.



I'm pretty sure he worked at Walmart for longer than the five weeks. One article said both of them had worked there for months, but Bryer's dad said Bryer only worked there five weeks after dropping out. However, Kam could have worked there for months. This theory is further supported because some Port Alberni residents who were interviewed said they remembered Kam working at Walmart and that he had good customer service skills. However, Kam and Bryer were working on the night shift during those five weeks when the store would not be open to the public. Therefore, it seems likely that Kam worked at Walmart for at least a few months on the day shift, and then switched to night shift for the last five weeks so that he could work with Bryer.

every gun will leave a different mark on bullet when fired. is like the firearms finger print.