Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Lalalacasbah]

I was informed that October 17th is the official first appearance, which I assume not much will happen because they are deceased. But the original charges were brought in Terrace because it was the closest court to where Leonard was murdered. The first appearances were moved to Vancouver.

Thank you! I guess they still submit evidence to the court and charges laid for what happens next (inquest/inquiry or whatever). Date of offence is July 19th and sworn date July 24th.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Spree killers commonly do commit suicide though. In fact I posted an interview a few days ago that the news did during the manhunt, interviewing a sociology professor about spree killers, and he said spree killings are "often a precursor to suicide." As in, the suicide is kind of the whole point. He said that two weeks before their bodies were found, too.

Well, I'm going by the top 10 and the only suicide duo is Eric/Dylan. That's just 10%.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Well, I'm going by the top 10 and the only suicide duo is Eric/Dylan. That's just 10%.

Out of spree killers or killer duos in general? Because a lot of the killer duos were serial killers.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I see the similarities to the Columbine guys, but I don't think Kam and Bryer were bullied like the Columbine guys were. Dylan and Eric sounded like they were humiliated and bullied very harshly, not sure Kam and Bryer were at all.

I remember when Columbine happened. Oddly, I thought of the movie Heathers (made in 1988, a decade earlier) and thought there were similarities that were a bit uncanny - loner guy in trenchcoat takes revenge on popular students by murdering them and making it look like suicides, then builds bomb to blow up the school to make his statement.

I always thought Dylan and Eric did the mass shooting more for revenge and to make a social statement if anything. I know there's more to it than that and it's not that simple, but not sure Kam & Bryer were that 'deep' about making a social statement.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I see the similarities to the Columbine guys, but I don't think Kam and Bryer were bullied like the Columbine guys were. Dylan and Eric sounded like they were humiliated and bullied very harshly, not sure Kam and Bryer were at all.

Technically we don't know if they were. They fit the profile for people who would be, though. And Bryer's dad said he was bullied in school.

I remember when Columbine happened. Oddly, I thought of the movie Heathers (made in 1988, a decade earlier) and thought there were similarities that were a bit uncanny - loner guy in trenchcoat takes revenge on popular students by murdering them and making it look like suicides, then builds bomb to blow up the school to make his statement.

I always thought Dylan and Eric did the mass shooting more for revenge and to make a social statement if anything. I know there's more to it than that and it's not that simple, but not sure Kam & Bryer were that 'deep' about making a social statement.

I feel like the Columbine shooters thought they were deeper than they actually were in terms of social statements. I mean, it turns out they inspired dozens of other killers, which is exactly what they wanted, but their motives for the shooting weren't particularly deep. It was just your typical extinction burst of rage from angsty, overdramatic teenagers who hadn't learned to deal with their emotional regulation issues in a healthy way.

Plus, the people they killed weren't even the people who bullied them. It was just random people. They even killed a developmentally disabled kid...what did that kid ever do to them? And the original plan was to blow up the entire school killing about 600 people inside -- I doubt all 600 of those people bullied them. The bullying may have caused their rage but it didn't really influence the targets of their rage IMO.

 

[musicaljoke]

In BC we have two license plates and the police reports only describe the found ones as singular which is interesting. The back plate has the registration/expiry sticker.

Once I was a passenger in a truck and we were pulled over by police and guns drawn. Turned out someone had swiped our front and back plates and replaced them with a stolen vehicle that matched our vehicle description. It was a smart move (to buy time and have our vehicle tracked to random places of caught on camera). Scared the hell out of me at the time. Since then I always check plates. Anyways, I had thought maybe they would have switched plates at some point.

They may have taken one plate off and stashed it when they left BC. The three prairie provinces require only one plate.

 

[poupetty77]

Good catch! Maybe to wrap things up? All reports finalized and submitted to the courts? Guessing here.

Weren't the charges being stayed wrapping thing up. There shouldn't be a need to submit anything more to the courts. That makes me curious!

 

[poupetty77]

Reason is APP which is application. Looks like murder charges for Dease Lake for the document filed 34325-1.

View attachment 208272

I was informed that October 17th is the official first appearance, which I assume not much will happen because they are deceased. But the original charges were brought in Terrace because it was the closest court to where Leonard was murdered. The first appearances were moved to Vancouver.

You can charge deceased people? Is it a legal requirement that any crime will be officially presented to the court even if the suspects are dead? I had no idea (but then, why would I am am not a lawyer).

 

[musicaljoke]

Had they actually been caught while they were driving, I think they would have done a suicide by cop thing.

No, no, no! This might be the west, but it's not the Wild West!

My goodness, I hate the term "suicide by cop".

 

[Jan424]

Technically we don't know if they were. They fit the profile for people who would be, though. And Bryer's dad said he was bullied in school.

I don't know, I don't see the same level of bullying for Kam or Bryer as the Columbine killers had received. Of course, I could be wrong, we don't know for sure. But everyone in the high school seemed to know both Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were bullied. That was talked about alot. The only person who says Bryer was bullied is Al. Now, maybe Bryer told him, maybe not. As for Kam ... not a single person has come forward to say he was even remotely bullied. They all had great things to say about him. Unless he was bullied simply for his relationship with Bryer, since he outwardly acted bizarre. Again, just speculating on another aspect that we have so little information on.

 

[Jan424]

SBM - Interesting concept and observation. I didn't think of that before, you make a good point. It was mostly or only Kam leaving stuff behind.

That could be quite telling, I wonder what the behavioral analysts think about that. Is it a sign of conscience or wanting the notoriety? I think the latter unfortunately. Would love to know an experts opinion!

I also think it was for notoriety or just "playing" with the cops, giving them an "eff you". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem either of them had a single ounce of conscience right up to the end. IMO

 

[Inkblot]

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

I give my condolences to the three families of those who lost their lives to violence. It's a tragedy, and my compassion and thoughts are with them.

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

In my opinion, you can't speculate like that. You didn't raise them, you never lived with them, you really don't know anything about them other that what you read or hear publicly. Just because they were young doesn't mean they deserve some sort of compassion. Perhaps they weren't truly loved by family. We don't know. Maybe they both had schizoaffective disorder, maybe they were just true psychopaths. I like the second question you posed better than the first one "Why didn't they just take themselves out instead?"

 

[Grouper]

In my opinion, you can't speculate like that. You didn't raise them, you never lived with them, you really don't know anything about them other that what you read or hear publicly. Just because they were young doesn't mean they deserve some sort of compassion. Perhaps they weren't truly loved by family. We don't know. Maybe they both had schizoaffective disorder, maybe they were just true psychopaths. I like the second question you posed better than the first one "Why didn't they just take themselves out instead?"

@Runningforthewind was actually quoting someone else in that question, and speaking against that idea.

In my opinion, that’s a reductive way of reasoning. Simply sweeping the problem under the rug.

I have compassion for all involved and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Someone previously mentioned that compassion for the instigator of violence does not negate compassion for the victims of violence. Nor does it glorify violent actions. I certainly don’t support murder or suicide as answers to problems.

In my opinion, the only way to truly understand why things like this happen is to put yourself in the position of the perpetrator, beyond the easy default of “well they were bad, end of story.” Reducing human actions to good vs bad is not conducive to bettering our society.

To put yourself in the position of the perpetrator, a certain degree of empathy is required. It’s harder for some than others, and I think that in and of itself is another hurdle for our society to jump as a whole.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I don't know, I don't see the same level of bullying for Kam or Bryer as the Columbine killers had received. Of course, I could be wrong, we don't know for sure. But everyone in the high school seemed to know both Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were bullied. That was talked about alot. The only person who says Bryer was bullied is Al. Now, maybe Bryer told him, maybe not. As for Kam ... not a single person has come forward to say he was even remotely bullied. They all had great things to say about him. Unless he was bullied simply for his relationship with Bryer, since he outwardly acted bizarre. Again, just speculating on another aspect that we have so little information on.

But how long did it take for that information to come out? We have 20 years worth of information on the Columbine shooters, and less than 3 months worth of information on these guys. Plus that information is more likely to come out for a school shooting because of the nature of the shooting. It's kind of topically relevant for this killing spree in terms of background, but not as directly relevant. And we don't know if it happened when they were younger. Not that many of their friends have come forward to the media either, and the ones who have come forward seem to be friends who weren't as close to them. Plus the girl who said Bryer talked about killing her in middle school said she "thought he was trying to be funny because he didn't have any friends" -- lack of friends doesn't necessarily imply bullying, but in middle school, it usually does.

Anyway, point is, it can't be ruled out, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to to have happened.

 

[NJSleuth91]

No, no, no! This might be the west, but it's not the Wild West!

My goodness, I hate the term "suicide by cop".

And yet it happens....

 

[Jan424]

But how long did it take for that information to come out? We have 20 years worth of information on the Columbine shooters, and less than 3 months worth of information on these guys. Plus that information is more likely to come out for a school shooting because of the nature of the shooting. It's kind of topically relevant for this killing spree in terms of background, but not as directly relevant. And we don't know if it happened when they were younger. Not that many of their friends have come forward to the media either, and the ones who have come forward seem to be friends who weren't as close to them. Plus the girl who said Bryer talked about killing her in middle school said she "thought he was trying to be funny because he didn't have any friends" -- lack of friends doesn't necessarily imply bullying, but in middle school, it usually does.

Anyway, point is, it can't be ruled out, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to to have happened.

Of course, it can't be ruled out, and it wouldn't surprise me either. Although, I guess I'd be more surprised if Kam was bullied, but certainly not Bryer. I'm just comparing to Harris and Klebold, since there has been alot of talk about Columbine on this thread. It certainly didn't take 20 years for people to come forward to say they were bullied, that happened very early on. I think Harris and Klebold were mercilessly bullied for a long time ... now, I think ANY amount of bullying is disgusting, and I despise the very thought of it. But, for not one person to even hint either K or B was bullied, makes it appear possible (possible being the operative word here), that the bullying theory is questionable or that it wasn't completely obvious to others. But also if the friends who have come forward were not close friends at all (and I don't think they were either), then perhaps we can't truly put much stock into anything they say, even if its positive. Maybe they were indeed bullied, but we have zero proof of it either way, aside from Al saying his son was. For me, that's just not enough to definitely say it happened, and I'm simply considering all possibilities. As always, MOO!!!!

 

[Jan424]

@Runningforthewind was actually quoting someone else in that question, and speaking against that idea.

SBM
Yep, @Inkblot ... that was my partially quoted post #724 ..

 

[SovereignSnake]

@Jan424 my coworker is convinced they made it to the night of the 3rd/4th because she wants to believe they made it to Bryer's 19th Birthday, like it was his second to last request of Kam. But in terms of living in the woods; July 22nd-August 4th would feel like a year to me. She also thought they would be unrecognizable after 3-5 days. We go back and forth on all the factors and there are so many possibilities with the animals, insects, temperature, moisture, etc. Personally, I thought they would be recognizable for at least a week maybe 10 days. Anyway, I do think they have known exactly when they died since they did the autopsy. I have a feeling like so many other things that have come to light in this case, when they do reveal the full coroner report, the actual date of death will be another shocker. I mean if they actually did last almost two weeks out there my jaw will be on the keyboard. I'm also still curious if the RCMP found more supplies and gear they've not revealed.

 

[LoisLane]

They may have taken one plate off and stashed it when they left BC. The three prairie provinces require only one plate.

That’s correct. The vehicle would also not stand out as out of province until seeing the back plate so that could also be a reason to remove it.

 

[sprucetip]

@Jan424 my coworker is convinced they made it to the night of the 3rd/4th because she wants to believe they made it to Bryer's 19th Birthday, like it was his second to last request of Kam. But in terms of living in the woods; July 22nd-August 4th would feel like a year to me. She also thought they would be unrecognizable after 3-5 days. We go back and forth on all the factors and there are so many possibilities with the animals, insects, temperature, moisture, etc. Personally, I thought they would be recognizable for at least a week maybe 10 days. Anyway, I do think they have known exactly when they died since they did the autopsy. I have a feeling like so many other things that have come to light in this case, when they do reveal the full coroner report, the actual date of death will be another shocker. I mean if they actually did last almost two weeks out there my jaw will be on the keyboard. I'm also still curious if the RCMP found more supplies and gear they've not revealed.

I don't think they made it more than a week, max. They weren't cut out to last long in the Manitoba wilderness. I think they were done and out of options so they gave up when things got really difficult.

I agree with you, in that they'd be recognizable for a couple weeks after death. The area is not overly warm, can get quite cool at night actually so that would slow down decomposition.