Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Runningforthewind]

I agree with you, in that they'd be recognizable for a couple weeks after death. The area is not overly warm, can get quite cool at night actually so that would slow down decomposition.

I'd be surprised if they were recognizable after a week, especially if the RCMP drew their gun apon noticing Kam. Considering the weather wasn't overly cold, and the amount of insects.

Decomposition – The Forensics Library

 

[MistyWaters]

@Jan424 my coworker is convinced they made it to the night of the 3rd/4th because she wants to believe they made it to Bryer's 19th Birthday, like it was his second to last request of Kam. But in terms of living in the woods; July 22nd-August 4th would feel like a year to me. She also thought they would be unrecognizable after 3-5 days. We go back and forth on all the factors and there are so many possibilities with the animals, insects, temperature, moisture, etc. Personally, I thought they would be recognizable for at least a week maybe 10 days. Anyway, I do think they have known exactly when they died since they did the autopsy. I have a feeling like so many other things that have come to light in this case, when they do reveal the full coroner report, the actual date of death will be another shocker. I mean if they actually did last almost two weeks out there my jaw will be on the keyboard. I'm also still curious if the RCMP found more supplies and gear they've not revealed.

My bolding of your comment.

Maybe I’ve missed something but I hadn’t noticed any mention of pending release of the full coroners report or for that matter, any commitment to the public regarding any further updates on this case.

The RCMP were unable to determine a motive but did confirm that no other suspects are being sought.

I don’t know, is there a reason it might be expected further information should publicly released, for what purpose and I wonder, would the suspects families support that?

 

[Jan424]

@Jan424 my coworker is convinced they made it to the night of the 3rd/4th because she wants to believe they made it to Bryer's 19th Birthday, like it was his second to last request of Kam. But in terms of living in the woods; July 22nd-August 4th would feel like a year to me. She also thought they would be unrecognizable after 3-5 days. We go back and forth on all the factors and there are so many possibilities with the animals, insects, temperature, moisture, etc. Personally, I thought they would be recognizable for at least a week maybe 10 days. Anyway, I do think they have known exactly when they died since they did the autopsy. I have a feeling like so many other things that have come to light in this case, when they do reveal the full coroner report, the actual date of death will be another shocker. I mean if they actually did last almost two weeks out there my jaw will be on the keyboard. I'm also still curious if the RCMP found more supplies and gear they've not revealed.

Well, it is possible they made it to Bryer's birthday, and her reasons are certainly sound. I just don't think so ... as you say, it is a long time for them to be alive in those woods, without food, water, shelter and proper clothing. And I agree with you that they would still be recognizable for at least a week, and Kam's beard would still be intact. (I tried searching online for facial hair during decomp, but can't seem to pin down a definite answer). In any case, I would have thought by now the ME could determine approximate date of death, but maybe they need a forensic specialist to help out here (insect activity, etc) to have more accuracy? Which would mean they were dead longer than a few days for sure. Of course, all speculation on my part .... as always just my humble opinion.

 

[Optics]

DBM

 

[Inkblot]

@Runningforthewind was actually quoting someone else in that question, and speaking against that idea.

In my opinion, that’s a reductive way of reasoning. Simply sweeping the problem under the rug.

I have compassion for all involved and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Someone previously mentioned that compassion for the instigator of violence does not negate compassion for the victims of violence. Nor does it glorify violent actions. I certainly don’t support murder or suicide as answers to problems.

In my opinion, the only way to truly understand why things like this happen is to put yourself in the position of the perpetrator, beyond the easy default of “well they were bad, end of story.” Reducing human actions to good vs bad is not conducive to bettering our society.

To put yourself in the position of the perpetrator, a certain degree of empathy is required. It’s harder for some than others, and I think that in and of itself is another hurdle for our society to jump as a whole.

Sorry, but I just can't agree on all this. They both knew right from wrong, and chose to act wrongly anyway (murder). As far a suicide goes, that was also their choice - I don't see that as wrong. It's all part of mental illness and if they couldn't cope with their existence lives, they had every right to commit suicide, or, try to get appropriate professional help, which is not always possible. They were "bad" and that's all there is to it.

SBM
Yep, @Inkblot ... that was my partially quoted post #724 ..

Thanks for clarifying. I am so far behind, I need to do a lot of catching up, so my apologies to the poster.

 

[sprucetip]

I'd be surprised if they were recognizable after a week, especially if the RCMP drew their gun apon noticing Kam. Considering the weather wasn't overly cold, and the amount of insects.

Decomposition – The Forensics Library

Could be, it was pretty warm and sunny that first week or so if I recall correctly.

 

[poupetty77]

Sorry, but I just can't agree on all this. They both knew right from wrong, and chose to act wrongly anyway (murder). As far a suicide goes, that was also their choice - I don't see that as wrong. It's all part of mental illness and if they couldn't cope with their existence lives, they had every right to commit suicide, or, try to get appropriate professional help, which is not always possible. They were "bad" and that's all there is to it.

Thanks for clarifying. I am so far behind, I need to do a lot of catching up, so my apologies to the poster.

I don't think anybody is saying they were anything but 100% wrong to do what they did.

Being bad is a useless concept. If they were psychopaths/sociopaths, it's sad that they ended going to the extend of killing other people AND themselves. If they were suicidally depressed, it's sad that they ended going to the extend of killing other people AND themselves.

What kind of mental state did they have to be to do what they did, then Kam shooting Bryer then himself? I don't wish that on anyone.

The best option would have been that they didn't kill L, C and L or themselves. I hardly see how that can be disputed. Finding out if the whole thing could have been prevented is not looking for excuses for what they did or disrespecting the victims. It's making sure the risk of it happening again are limited. We can't Stop every murder and suicide, but if there is a way to reduce it, why not?

And IMO, no suicide will ever be something I can find joy in. No matter how wrong or bad someone is (but yeah, obviously, it's a good thing they didn't hurt anymore people).

 

[Jan424]

I'd be surprised if they were recognizable after a week, especially if the RCMP drew their gun apon noticing Kam. Considering the weather wasn't overly cold, and the amount of insects.
Decomposition – The Forensics Library

True, but I went back to the article on how they were found to see how exactly it was worded .... so Kam was first noticed when they got to the shore, and an RCMP officer drew his gun when he spotted Kam thru the sloped, thick brush. I'm wondering if its possible, since Kam was found sitting up in his camouflage top, the officer drew his gun as a normal precaution. I'd think the thick brush could obscure the details of his condition from where they first saw him. Otherwise, it seems a very long time they survived in the wilderness. MOO!

 

[Errrr]

I think their suicidal thoughts were driven by their experience with real BUGS. And I think they died before the heat seeking equipment was deployed. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence of particular cleverness in evading detection. I am getting annoyed about all the talk of poor boys. They were men, fully responsible for everything they did. I don’t care if they wanted more loving. If they were bigger and uglier we wouldn’t have to listen to this. Call me grouchy.

 

[SovereignSnake]

My bolding of your comment.

Maybe I’ve missed something but I hadn’t noticed any mention of pending release of the full coroners report or for that matter, any commitment to the public regarding any further updates on this case.

The RCMP were unable to determine a motive but did confirm that no other suspects are being sought.

I don’t know, is there a reason it might be expected further information should publicly released, for what purpose and I wonder, would the suspects families support that?

I will have to search for the article but it stated something along the lines of; "the full coroner's report has not yet been released" or "we are still awaiting the results of the full coroner's report." I believe it was posted by @NJSleuth91 so perhaps she may be able to help dig it up. It was never anything official, but the media outlet making mention of it did give wonder if it will come at a later date, which, I do think it will along with a toxicology report. September 27th wasn't necessarily the proverbial "case closed." There will be things months, if not years from now that surface. Personally I would like to know: the approximate date of death, the toxicology results, where did the other gun come from and of course few other things I won't mention here.

 

[poupetty77]

I think their suicidal thoughts were driven by their experience with real BUGS. And I think they died before the heat seeking equipment was deployed. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence of particular cleverness in evading detection. I am getting annoyed about all the talk of poor boys. They were men, fully responsible for everything they did. I don’t care if they wanted more loving. If they were bigger and uglier we wouldn’t have to listen to this. Call me grouchy.

They are dead. They don't matter anymore. It's the next ones that matter (whatever their weight, skin color, body shape, what their face look like...). The one that might be stopped? Or not? But it would be good to find out.

 

[poupetty77]

I just realised the court date on 17 October is regarding Leonard Dyck's murder, not even Chynna and Lucas as the date of the offence is 19th July. Am I the only one who finds it weird? The charges have been stayed because the suspects were deceased, what could they possibly do more?

 

[Jan424]

They were men, fully responsible for everything they did.

SBM
Yes, they may have acted infantile, but they were still men and not boys.

 

[dust bunny]

If the original charges were formally stayed because they were deceased, so what would this new court date be for?
View attachment 208264

 

[Moriarty]

The charges have been stayed because the suspects were deceased, what could they possibly do more?

The original charges were stayed...which means they're still "alive" but on hold. I would guess the Crown will now withdraw the charges and that will close the case file.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I will have to search for the article but it stated something along the lines of; "the full coroner's report has not yet been released" or "we are still awaiting the results of the full coroner's report." I believe it was posted by @NJSleuth91 so perhaps she may be able to help dig it up. It was never anything official, but the media outlet making mention of it did give wonder if it will come at a later date, which, I do think it will along with a toxicology report. September 27th wasn't necessarily the proverbial "case closed." There will be things months, if not years from now that surface. Personally I would like to know: the approximate date of death, the toxicology results, where did the other gun come from and of course few other things I won't mention here.

It was in this article:
RCMP say subjects of nationwide manhunt confessed to killing three people, planned to kill more | The Star

" The RCMP are still waiting on a coroner’s report for the exact date of death."

 

[poupetty77]

The original charges were stayed...which means they're still "alive" but on hold. I would guess the Crown will now withdraw the charges and that will close the case file.

Any idea why they didn't withdraw the charges in the first place? I'm sure the courts are busy enough. They were dead and not coming back.

 

[dust bunny]

The criminal file # is the same in both courts. The "SOB"--Stay of proceedings-- in Terrace Law Courts was entered when it was only suspected but not yet confirmed that the only two accused suspects were likely dead, pending final autopsy and investigation results. I believe that the Oct 17 "hearing" in the Vancouver Provincial Court is simply an "application" "APP" to now confirm that the charges have in fact been dropped and that the only possible suspects both confessed and are dead.

 

[MistyWaters]

I just realised the court date on 17 October is regarding Leonard Dyck's murder, not even Chynna and Lucas as the date of the offence is 19th July. Am I the only one who finds it weird? The charges have been stayed because the suspects were deceased, what could they possibly do more?

The Prosecution has the authority to not proceed with charges that were earlier laid against K&B in the murder of LD (ie enter a stay). But because the suspects are now deceased only a judge can outrightly dismiss charges. I’m very sure the Oct 17th court date is for that reason and it’s only a matter of the formal Court process in abating the earlier charges.

 

[Moriarty]

The RCMP are still waiting on a coroner’s report for the exact date of death.

SBM

That's going to be awfully tough now...wasn't it reported weeks ago that the bodies were released to the families?

In Manitoba, I believe that Autopsy Reports and Investigation Reports by the Chief Medical Examiner's Office are not available to the public.

Justice | Province of Manitoba