Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[musicaljoke]

I don't think they made it more than a week, max. They weren't cut out to last long in the Manitoba wilderness. I think they were done and out of options so they gave up when things got really difficult.

I agree with you, in that they'd be recognizable for a couple weeks after death. The area is not overly warm, can get quite cool at night actually so that would slow down decomposition.

I'd give them one night in the wilderness. I can't see them getting through a second night.

 

[Betty P]

In my opinion, you can't speculate like that. You didn't raise them, you never lived with them, you really don't know anything about them other that what you read or hear publicly. Just because they were young doesn't mean they deserve some sort of compassion. Perhaps they weren't truly loved by family. We don't know. Maybe they both had schizoaffective disorder, maybe they were just true psychopaths. I like the second question you posed better than the first one "Why didn't they just take themselves out instead?"

Neither appeared to be experiencing auditory or visual hallucinations, so schizoaffective disorder doesn't seem to apply. They probably had the garden variety personality and mood disorders.

JMO, it may have had a lot to do with how they were raised. Not all damaged teens are the result of parents who abused or neglected them. Sometimes they're from homes where they were allowed to do anything they wish, all the time, no boundaries. As a result, they don't learn how to regulate their behavior and emotions, plan for the future nor see themselves maturing into adulthood. They remain forever adolescent kids.

The biggest factor may have been the addiction to computer games. It stunts development of social skills, encourages living in an often violent fantasy world where you just shoot and kill people for fun or if they get in your way. Maybe the real world of working at Walmart was too bland and depressing for the guys, so they decided to play real-life computer games instead.

I don't think they thought much about the consequences until they were forced to. They kept harboring the fantasy of driving to the end of the continent, then escaping to some exotic location via the Hudson Bay. When faced with the reality of their situation and the future they faced, they chose to opt out. JMO, they really didn't think they would get caught or have to face consequences until it was too late.

ETA: The fact neither had any compassion or regret for killing their victims says the most about their flawed personalities. That they stopped seemed more for self-preservation than compassion or guilt.

 

[NJSleuth91]

SBM

That's going to be awfully tough now...wasn't it reported weeks ago that the bodies were released to the families?

In Manitoba, I believe that Autopsy Reports and Investigation Reports by the Chief Medical Examiner's Office are not available to the public.

Justice | Province of Manitoba

I've heard full autopsy reports, like with toxicology and everything, can take 6-9 months in Canada. Not because of the autopsy itself but because of delays in processing the paperwork. Of course that doesn't mean it will be publicly released.

As I said, I have a feeling that the police aren't releasing a more exact date of death (because come on, they can estimate it, we're not stupid) because I think they survived for a while and the police are embarrassed they couldn't find them when they were really close by, AND near a river. And instead were going on a whole wild goose chase in York Landing when it was nearly impossible that they would have gotten that far in that period of time.

I'd give them one night in the wilderness. I can't see them getting through a second night.

You know that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive"? (I know, very scientific) People can last way longer in extreme conditions than even they would think. Especially able-bodied teenagers.

 

[MistyWaters]

SBM

That's going to be awfully tough now...wasn't it reported weeks ago that the bodies were released to the families?

In Manitoba, I believe that Autopsy Reports and Investigation Reports by the Chief Medical Examiner's Office are not available to the public.

Justice | Province of Manitoba

I don’t think they’re available to the public in any Canadian province. If there had been a criminal trial, evidence and supporting testimony regarding injuries incurred by the victims would be introduced by the medical examiner, assuming it wasn’t subject to a publication ban which often seems to occur. But I can’t ever recall a Medical Examiner’s final report being released regarding the deaths of suicide victims, whether or not the individuals were accused of prior criminal acts.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Actually I thought of something. In the news it said that Kam and Bryer said in one of the later videos that they were going to kill themselves because they "felt cornered." Could that mean that the police were nearby at the time when they killed themselves? Like around August 2nd when they found the boat and items, or even after that? That was only 1 km from where their bodies were found. It's possible they even saw the police from their vantage point on top of the cliffs. And maybe the police heard the gunshots and that's what led them to say "we are certain they are no longer a threat" on August 4th or 5th. That would also definitely explain why the police don't want to release an estimate of time of death.

@SovereignSnake maybe your friend is right!

 

[NJSleuth91]

That would be the ultimate middle finger to the police too...like "you almost got us, we were right there the entire time, we even could have killed you guys!"

 

[MistyWaters]

I've heard full autopsy reports, like with toxicology and everything, can take 6-9 months in Canada. Not because of the autopsy itself but because of delays in processing the paperwork. Of course that doesn't mean it will be publicly released.

As I said, I have a feeling that the police aren't releasing a more exact date of death (because come on, they can estimate it, we're not stupid) because I think they survived for a while and the police are embarrassed they couldn't find them when they were really close by, AND near a river. And instead were going on a whole wild goose chase in York Landing when it was nearly impossible that they would have gotten that far in that period of time.



You know that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive"? (I know, very scientific) People can last way longer in extreme conditions than even they would think. Especially able-bodied teenagers.

The RCMP have no reason to be embarrassed - time was on their side. If the two had wanted to give themselves up, they had more than ample opportunity to let their presence be known. Now we know the reason their primary activity of police involved insuring people in the community were safe, going door to door and checking out buildings. Because we now know the two were armed to the hilt with ammunition. If the two chose to hide like cowards in the thick, dense bush during the various air searches that occurred, that’s not the fault of the police. The RCMP are not obliged to place their own lives at risk to attempt to save the lives of murderers who clearly placed no value on the lives of their victims.

 

[MistyWaters]

That would be the ultimate middle finger to the police too...like "you almost got us, we were right there the entire time, we even could have killed you guys!"

You don’t think B or K would’ve taken the lives of police officers if they had the opportunity? I’m certain the RCMP would’ve been smart enough to realize that and why they were not scurrying the bush Rambo style looking to get shot at.

 

[NJSleuth91]

You don’t think B or K would’ve taken the lives of police officers if they had the opportunity? I’m certain the RCMP would’ve been smart enough to realize that and why they were not scurrying the bush Rambo style looking to get shot at.

Well, apparently not. They had about a 24 hour head start on police. They easily could have set up an ambush in the woods and gone out in a shootout. Or, they could have lured the police to their location (wouldn't be too difficult considering the RCMP were trying to specifically find them) and gone out in a shootout. In fact that's what I expected to happen when I first started following this case. But they didn't. Now we will never know why they didn't, but...fact is, they weren't lacking in opportunities to engage in a shootout with police if they wanted to.

 

[MistyWaters]

Actually I thought of something. In the news it said that Kam and Bryer said in one of the later videos that they were going to kill themselves because they "felt cornered." Could that mean that the police were nearby at the time when they killed themselves? Like around August 2nd when they found the boat and items, or even after that? That was only 1 km from where their bodies were found. It's possible they even saw the police from their vantage point on top of the cliffs. And maybe the police heard the gunshots and that's what led them to say "we are certain they are no longer a threat" on August 4th or 5th. That would also definitely explain why the police don't want to release an estimate of time of death.

@SovereignSnake maybe your friend is right!

The bodies were found on Aug 7th but based on the press release below, I think it’s doubtful the two were alive until Aug 4th or 5th.

“The Manitoba Medical Examiner has completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased men located in Manitoba on August 7, 2019 were Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky. Their next of kin have been notified and they have been offered support.

The RCMP can also confirm that the two died in what appears to be suicides by gunfire. While both individuals were deceased for a number of days before they were found, the exact time and date of their deaths are not known. However, there are strong indications that they had been alive for a few days since last seen in July and during the extensive search efforts in the Gillam area.”
RCMP in British Columbia - Update – RCMP confirm cause of death and provide update on the Northern BC triple homicide investigations

 

[CinNC]

dbm

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, apparently not. They had about a 24 hour head start on police. They easily could have set up an ambush in the woods and gone out in a shootout. Or, they could have lured the police to their location (wouldn't be too difficult considering the RCMP were trying to specifically find them) and gone out in a shootout. In fact that's what I expected to happen when I first started following this case. But they didn't. Now we will never know why they didn't, but...fact is, they weren't lacking in opportunities to engage in a shootout with police if they wanted to.

Right, but if they wanted to engage in a shootout they needn’t have murdered three victims or left the province of BC. But after doing so, escape became their plan and at some point it appears hijacking a boat on Hudson Bay became their utterly stupid ticket to freedom before they got themselves cornered with no where to go. At what point did suicide become their only possible escape route, we don’t know nor will we ever know because they’re not here to tell us.

But that doesn’t change the fact the RCMP were right in naming them armed and extremely dangerous while the two were on the run. Nobody had the ability to predict their actions.

 

[Esprite]

Actually I thought of something. In the news it said that Kam and Bryer said in one of the later videos that they were going to kill themselves because they "felt cornered." Could that mean that the police were nearby at the time when they killed themselves? Like around August 2nd when they found the boat and items, or even after that? That was only 1 km from where their bodies were found. It's possible they even saw the police from their vantage point on top of the cliffs. And maybe the police heard the gunshots and that's what led them to say "we are certain they are no longer a threat" on August 4th or 5th. That would also definitely explain why the police don't want to release an estimate of time of death.

@SovereignSnake maybe your friend is right!

They probably heard the helicopters and drones.

 

[NJSleuth91]

The bodies were found on Aug 7th but based on the press release below, I think it’s doubtful the two were alive until Aug 4th or 5th.

“The Manitoba Medical Examiner has completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased men located in Manitoba on August 7, 2019 were Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky. Their next of kin have been notified and they have been offered support.

The RCMP can also confirm that the two died in what appears to be suicides by gunfire. While both individuals were deceased for a number of days before they were found, the exact time and date of their deaths are not known. However, there are strong indications that they had been alive for a few days since last seen in July and during the extensive search efforts in the Gillam area.”
RCMP in British Columbia - Update – RCMP confirm cause of death and provide update on the Northern BC triple homicide investigations

"A number of days" doesn't really mean anything. One is a number.

But do you think the police would publicize if these guys were alive 1 km away from where the police were searching?

Right, but if they wanted to engage in a shootout they needn’t have murdered three victims or left the province of BC. But after doing so, escape became their plan and at some point it appears hijacking a boat on Hudson Bay became their utterly stupid ticket to freedom before they got themselves cornered with no where to go. At what point did suicide become their only possible escape route, we don’t know nor will we ever know because they’re not here to tell us.

We also don't know how serious they were about the Hudson Bay thing (if they were serious, that indicates some degree of break from reality IMO). A lot of people think they said that to be dramatic or as a joke. But the only people who would have the best idea of that, are the people who have actually seen the videos, which is not any of us.

I feel like suicide was always their endgame but they wanted to see how long they could keep going before they did it...like a video game, as many people have said. Plus, the longer they kept going, the more notoriety they got, which is apparently what they wanted.

However it doesn't make much sense to me that they didn't engage in a shootout vs. suicide. Even at the point where they decided on suicide, you would think they would be like "well, we're going to die anyway, might as well go out in a 'blaze of glory.'" That seems like it would be the ultimate way to go out for notoriety, rather than just killing themselves. It also fits with their "militia" image of themselves.

My best guess is that they really wanted to be the ones to kill themselves (which is why they went through all those ritualistic preparations for death and made all those videos about it) and that's why they didn't engage in a shootout with the police either.

But that doesn’t change the fact the RCMP were right in naming them armed and extremely dangerous while the two were on the run. Nobody had the ability to predict their actions.

Literally nobody disputed that the RCMP should have named them armed and extremely dangerous, but ok.

 

[sprucetip]

I've heard full autopsy reports, like with toxicology and everything, can take 6-9 months in Canada. Not because of the autopsy itself but because of delays in processing the paperwork. Of course that doesn't mean it will be publicly released.

As I said, I have a feeling that the police aren't releasing a more exact date of death (because come on, they can estimate it, we're not stupid) because I think they survived for a while and the police are embarrassed they couldn't find them when they were really close by, AND near a river. And instead were going on a whole wild goose chase in York Landing when it was nearly impossible that they would have gotten that far in that period of time.

You know that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive"? (I know, very scientific) People can last way longer in extreme conditions than even they would think. Especially able-bodied teenagers.

BBM. Yes! I freakin' love that show. It's true, when people are desperate they can survive amazingly low odds. But were these guys desperate to survive? Nah.

 

[NJSleuth91]

BBM. Yes! I freakin' love that show. It's true, when people are desperate they can survive amazingly low odds. But were these guys desperate to survive? Nah.

It did rain a lot when they were in the woods though. Even if they didn't bring any water or means of water purification, they could have survived off rainwater and avoided getting giardia, which is apparently in the water in that area. Also, people can survive without food for at least three weeks but often much longer. They were only missing for about two weeks, and one would assume they had brought at least some food with them. Clearly they weren't attacked by any wild animals, so I guess they got lucky there. The other main hazard is hypothermia but I think the lowest temperature was within a day or two of when they got there on a night when it rained heavily (45 degrees) so if they were going to get hypothermia, they would have gotten it then. I guess whatever stuff they brought was enough to prevent that. But they definitely could have physically survived for up to two weeks...maybe not in the best shape (which would explain why they were trapped in an area you would think they could have climbed out of, if they were weak from hunger), but still.

Also the fact that they didn't travel that far enabled them to survive for longer, also. Most people lost in the wilderness are constantly moving trying to get out, and that reduces the odds of survival.

 

[katydid23]

Nobody at 18 and 19 year of age should hate themselves to the point they want to end their own lives, never mind murder 3 people. How do two teens with no criminal record, no history of violence and by most described as good people choose this?

I give my condolences to the three families of those who lost their lives to violence. It's a tragedy, and my compassion and thoughts are with them.

But I believe Kam and Bryer deserve some compassion. It's not a matter of condoning their actions, but they were young. What went wrong? What was the feeling behind closed doors that they thought their only option in life was too to do this?

The question should be "What can we do differently going forward?" Not "Why didn' they just take themselves out instead?" We don't want to wish death on anyone. These two boys weren't always monsters. They had a family who loved them. So what went wrong?

I am not sure what went wrong. Obviously a complicated situation.

This question of teen suicide is something I have researched for several years, as my kid's high school had a sudden surge of sucides in a few year span. * It was tough for my kids because both of them had friends who killed themselves in that span of time. My son's classmate drove off a Malibu cliff, daughter's friend hung herself in her family garage.

I went to a few community events, for parents, about suicide prevention, etc. The takeaway for me was that all of this 'knowledge' and data, that children have at their fingertips, can be too much information for a young mind.

They can be overwhelmed by 'traumatic news' ---like upcoming climate change, and socio-political struggles, and economic uncertainties and global warfare and FEAR in general.

They also can be emotionally overwhelmed by the social media machine and feel helpless and unable to cope with the ugliness it can create.

On top of that, violence and and things like that are saturating the internet and too easy for young minds to get into.

The combination of all of the above can be too much for a troubled kid, perhaps one whose family is going through a crisis as well. Kids fall through the cracks, and feel alone and isolated, even when they have friends and family who love them and think they are fine.

*Teen deaths spur suicide outreach at Agoura High School – Daily News

 

[musicaljoke]

As I said, I have a feeling that the police aren't releasing a more exact date of death (because come on, they can estimate it, we're not stupid) because I think they survived for a while and the police are embarrassed they couldn't find them when they were really close by, AND near a river. And instead were going on a whole wild goose chase in York Landing when it was nearly impossible that they would have gotten that far in that period of time.

You know that show "I Shouldn't Be Alive"? (I know, very scientific) People can last way longer in extreme conditions than even they would think. Especially able-bodied teenagers.

The RCMP wouldn't be the ones to do the autopsy and release the report. That would come from the Coroner , who, in this case might not release the results to the public.

 

[NJSleuth91]

The RCMP wouldn't be the ones to do the autopsy and release the report. That would come from the Coroner , who, in this case might not release the results to the public.

Right but I'm sure the police ultimately decide what gets released in a criminal case.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I am not sure what went wrong. Obviously a complicated situation.

This question of teen suicide is something I have researched for several years, as my kid's high school had a sudden surge of sucides in a few year span. * It was tough for my kids because both of them had friends who killed themselves in that span of time. My son's classmate drove off a Malibu cliff, daughter's friend hung herself in her family garage.

I went to a few community events, for parents, about suicide prevention, etc. The takeaway for me was that all of this 'knowledge' and data, that children have at their fingertips, can be too much information for a young mind.

They can be overwhelmed by 'traumatic news' ---like upcoming climate change, and socio-political struggles, and economic uncertainties and global warfare and FEAR in general.

They also can be emotionally overwhelmed by the social media machine and feel helpless and unable to cope with the ugliness it can create.

On top of that, violence and and things like that are saturating the internet and too easy for young minds to get into.

The combination of all of the above can be too much for a troubled kid, perhaps one whose family is going through a crisis as well. Kids fall through the cracks, and feel alone and isolated, even when they have friends and family who love them and think they are fine.

*Teen deaths spur suicide outreach at Agoura High School – Daily News

As a formerly suicidal teenager turned intermittently suicidal adult, I think a lot of it has to do with feelings of isolation and alienation as well. Studies show feelings of loneliness are increasing in our society (there are many reasons for that) and that communities aren't as cohesive as they once were. Even if people have their own small group of friends, they may feel isolated from society at large or like they don't "fit in" to the world in general. Increased internet and phone use is also associated with increased feelings of social isolation and depression.

I feel like there's a very "sink or swim" thing with school and careers too in our society. I always felt like I was two steps away from ending up homeless and being a complete failure in life, and that was while I was going to one of the top public high schools and top 15 universities in the US! I imagine it would be even more so for people who have academic difficulties and live in an area with few career prospects.

It's easy to feel like, "Nobody really cares what happens to me. They may pretend to care if I act out enough, to avoid liability if I end up killing myself, but once I start acting 'ok' again, they'll forget I existed." And if someone is, for example, openly threatening suicide and posting pictures on Instagram with a gun in their mouth and people still aren't even pretending to care....