Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[MistyWaters]

I don't believe in censorship and lack of transparency, but ok. However due to the huge manhunt, it wasn't really possible to do that in this case.

It was thoughtful IMO, how the RCMP’s final update also respected and addressed the expressed wishes of the families of the homicide victims.

BBM
On July 19, 2019, at approximately 8:29 a.m., a highway worker stopped and advised the Dease Lake RCMP officer at the burnt truck scene about a deceased male he had just located approximately 2 kilometers south. The deceased was an older male and he did not match the physical descriptors of McLeod. The deceased suffered injuries to his head and body, including bruises and burn marks. Initially, the cause of death was unknown. [The police are not releasing further details of the injuries out of respect for the deceased’s family and not to further victimize them.]
RCMP in British Columbia - Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation

On Friday of this week, Canadian police will hold another press conference. They’ve told Sheila that it’s just an announcement that they have enough to formally charge the suspects. She knew that, though. What scares her to tears is whether the press conference will lead to the release of one of the videos or some other horrific detail.

If she had a choice, Sheila wouldn’t learn any more, but she can’t stand the idea of someone knowing more about her daughter than she does. British says that when the authorities come here, he’ll ask for everything. He doesn’t want to live in fear of being sideswiped by some unearthed video or report later in life.
The world knows Chynna Deese because of how she died. Now her family wants to make sure we remember how she lived.

 

[CinNC]

I'd like to know more about the autopsy results because I'm having trouble comprehending how two able bodied young men were trapped down by the river.

Any pictures I've seen of where they were found and aerial views of the river banks, they are many places where they trees come right down to the river. I would think they should have been able to climb back up the bank, even if they had to use trees as support as they worked their way back up. Perhaps one of them was injured (I would logically conclude Breyer) and that's what lead to that Kam shooting him or maybe Breyer just wasn't as tough as he thought and went down the bank, hoping to be located and there was a disagreement.

I would hope police went back with dogs and searched the general area because I really don't believe they camped right by the river for days, waiting for the RCMP to find them.

Even I could have worked my way up using trees and shrubs to pull myself up, and I have a slight disability!

Perhaps one was injured from the trip down, like a sprained ankle (or worse). Perhaps wildlife was stalking them and they didn't want to "walk into their jaws". Perhaps they were too weak from lack of food. Perhaps they were aware there was a search going on and they knew they'd be caught if they went back up the riverbank.

 

[NJSleuth91]

It was thoughtful IMO, how the RCMP’s final update also respected and addressed the expressed wishes of the families of the homicide victims.

But that isn't what we were discussing. We were discussing: a) the police not releasing a more accurate estimate of date of death, b) somehow people went off into an irrelevant tangent about the media not releasing names of perpetrators in mass shootings.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Anyway, as for the mass shooting thing...historically speaking, assigning "unperson" status to a group of people never works out in the long run, even if it seems like a good idea at the time.

And the same with unnecessary levels of secrecy in general. You will never, ever convince me that this case would have gotten the level of attention it did if the police were more upfront with what they knew from the beginning. The secrecy fueled a lot of the interest.

And as for the date of death...until the RCMP releases a more accurate date of death, I'm just going to assume the reason why they haven't is because they're embarrassed to admit how long two idiot teenagers evaded them and all their specialized equipment and searchers. It might raise some questions about public safety, and about how effectively funding is being allocated, for example.

 

[Jan424]

Just my 2 cents on the RCMP …. I never expected them to release the amount of information they did in the final report. I was surprised and satisfied. Maybe they included more details in order to end some unnecessary speculation and conspiracy theories (though I suspect that will continue). What their report proved to me is that they had so much MORE right from the get go. Simply because we didn’t know what they were doing for 3 weeks, did not mean they didn’t have plenty of information, evidence, and hard work behind the scenes. For the love of God, some even believed the RCMP did not track their phones (or at least Bryer's), which would have made them absurdly incompetent. Now we learn of course they did …… and that was just one part of the bigger picture.

I personally don’t believe Kam and Bryer survived very long in the bush before being found dead. We don’t know how long they eluded the police, but they were not seasoned escape artists. I’d say they just had beginner’s luck. I think the RCMP did a thorough job with difficult circumstances and worked endlessly and tirelessly. Kam and Bryer ended up on that slope thanks to their own monumentally stupid decisions. No way they wanted a shootout with cops, they definitely wanted to end this on their terms.

Admittedly, I’d like to hear the toxicology report, as I’m very curious about that. If I learn a more approximate date of death, that would be interesting as well. But, whether they were dead 2 days, several days, a week .... it would not change my view of how the RCMP handled this case.

Just all my opinion!!

 

[NJSleuth91]

Just my 2 cents on the RCMP …. I never expected them to release the amount of information they did in the final report. I was surprised and satisfied. Maybe they included more details in order to end some unnecessary speculation and conspiracy theories (though I suspect that will continue).

Yes but that was after two months of not releasing anything, even to the suspects' families. It turns out they had evidence of a failed murder attempt that showed their M.O. and gave a lot of information as to motive, by July 21st. And it turns out they had enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murders by July 24th.

Instead they allowed two months of people speculating they were innocent and it was a coverup, and information about the videos leaking, and Bryer's dad ranting to the media because they wouldn't even release any information to him about why his son was implicated in three homicides, etc. How much discussion do you think would have gone on about this case even on here, if we had known those details earlier about the failed murder attempt and the ballistics? I think the only reason they ultimately released as much as they did is because they realized they messed up. I don't think they ever intended for the information about the videos' existence to come out, and it only did because they insisted on withholding information and one of the suspects' families probably leaked it to pressure them.

You can't even argue that the secrecy didn't fuel public attention because it's literally the #1 thing that did. Like, factually speaking, that can't even be argued.

I personally don’t believe Kam and Bryer survived very long in the bush before being found dead. We don’t know how long they eluded the police, but they were not seasoned escape artists. I’d say they just had beginner’s luck. I think the RCMP did a thorough job with difficult circumstances and worked endlessly and tirelessly. Kam and Bryer ended up on that slope thanks to their own monumentally stupid decisions. No way they wanted a shootout with cops, they definitely wanted to end this on their terms.

Well, at this point, we don't know. The fact that they were instantly recognizable upon being found, in an area full of flying insects, indicates to me they probably weren't dead as long as we initially thought.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, I totally understand. I was merely conveying that even "nice guys" can have a dark side (at any age). Maybe Kam and Bryer also committed multiple thefts, perhaps they even tortured small animals and were never caught. Everybody starts with zero criminal record, until they get caught doing something criminal. Being nice just helps them to blend in to the community and to gain trust - it's all a facade. Terry Driver, (the Abbotsford Killer), for example - all his workmates and people who knew him well swore he didn't do it. It was his own mother who turned him in after recognizing his voice when he was making taunting calls to the police. These boys were anything but nice.

And someone who’s prone to committing crimes of opportunity whether it be petty theft or animal torture has already learned to be selective, sneaky and secretive. Added is their thrill in not getting caught, the act of deceiving others.

The remoteness of the northern BC and it’s extremely low density population was significant in terms of providing their opportunity to commit murder upon innocent, defenceless victims IMO. Described as “cold, remorseless” killings, I agree, any niceness was only a facade.

“The murders appear to be random and crimes of opportunity with no known motive” and for “unknown reasons,” Hackett told media.”
Updated: RCMP have confessions but no motive in Northern B.C. triple homicide

 

[ktm44]

I've never read anything about them claiming that they would kill "100" people, though. Where did you read this?

I did read an article at one point that included their desire to kill 100 people but if that number wasn't included in the report, I'm prepared to assume that a reporter excersized creative liberties. In either case, I believe their intent to kill more fell by the wayside long before then.

 

[Jan424]

Yes but that was after two months of not releasing anything, even to the suspects' families. It turns out they had evidence of a failed murder attempt that showed their M.O. and gave a lot of information as to motive, by July 21st. And it turns out they had enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murders by July 24th.

Instead they allowed two months of people speculating they were innocent and it was a coverup, and information about the videos leaking, and Bryer's dad ranting to the media because they wouldn't even release any information to him about why his son was implicated in three homicides, etc. How much discussion do you think would have gone on about this case even on here, if we had known those details earlier about the failed murder attempt and the ballistics? I think the only reason they ultimately released as much as they did is because they realized they messed up. I don't think they ever intended for the information about the videos' existence to come out, and it only did because they insisted on withholding information and one of the suspects' families probably leaked it to pressure them.

You can't even argue that the secrecy didn't fuel public attention because it's literally the #1 thing that did. Like, factually speaking, that can't even be argued.

Well, at this point, we don't know. The fact that they were instantly recognizable upon being found, in an area full of flying insects, indicates to me they probably weren't dead as long as we initially thought.

It really isn't uncommon, and not exclusive to the RCMP, to not release details of an ongoing investigation to anyone, including members of the suspects families. I'm really not sure why they would do that, but if it is something that is generally done, then I'd be interested to know. I've followed so many cases here in the US, and its frustrating to members of victims families that even THEY don't get information prior to trial. I guess this is no different. I understand what you are saying about rampant speculation, but I think that would go on regardless. I don't think that release of information would have decreased discussion on these threads .... after all, we still are actively discussing it, and its pretty much over and done with. I'm not saying the RCMP did everything perfectly, but I can't see where they "messed up" .... the provided us with almost everything we had hoped for once they had most things complete. But I guess I don't consider lack of detail during an active investigation "secrecy" ... I wasn't seeing it that way, and my attention to this case was definitely not fueled on that. Of course, I can only speak for myself, but where is that a fact?
Yes, they were recognizable .... but, who else would those two dead bodies belong to? Especially with Kam's beard. Plus, they had a good idea of where they were based on personal items found, as we know. And there are so many factors that go into the rate and level of decomposition.
Look, I'm just speculating .... I have no idea when they died. All I was trying to say is that I can see them being dead longer and still be recognized. If they were only dead a few days, then they were .... that part doesn't matter to me personally. Everyone has their own theory on that but, either way, it would not change my opinion on how the RCMP handled this case. MOO!!

 

[NJSleuth91]

I did read an article at one point that included their desire to kill 100 people but if that number wasn't included in the report, I'm prepared to assume that a reporter excersized creative liberties.

Interesting. Well, if they really did say that, that indicates to me that it was more of a dramatic statement. But maybe the reporter got mixed up with the thing about hundreds of rounds of ammunition being found.

In either case, I believe their intent to kill more fell by the wayside long before then.

Agreed...if they wanted to kill more, you can't tell me that they wouldn't have found a way to do so. They had literally nothing to lose at that point.

It really isn't uncommon, and not exclusive to the RCMP, to not release details of an ongoing investigation to anyone, including members of the suspects families. I'm really not sure why they would do that, but if it is something that is generally done, then I'd be interested to know. I've followed so many cases here in the US, and its frustrating to members of victims families that even THEY don't get information prior to trial.

I can understand the lack of information prior to a trial so as not to risk a jury being compromised. I can also understand the lack of information prior to August 7th in case they were found alive. But once the suspects were dead, there clearly wasn't going to be a trial.

I understand what you are saying about rampant speculation, but I think that would go on regardless. I don't think that release of information would have decreased discussion on these threads .... after all, we still are actively discussing it, and its pretty much over and done with.

But would it have gotten that much interest in the first place had it not been a complete mystery what happened for two months, even down to the most basic details? I doubt it. People are still talking about it now because the interest in the case was already cemented previously.

Yes, they were recognizable .... but, who else would those two dead bodies belong to?

It was instantly recognizable which of them was which, is what I mean. And they didn't seem to be skeletal remains or anything.

 

[MistyWaters]

It was instantly recognizable which of them was which, is what I mean. And they didn't seem to be skeletal remains or anything.

Nothing was said about their faces being “instantly recognizable” that I ever recall. Only a comment about Ks facial hair which doesn’t readily decompose the same as skin, without going into graphic detail. There’s a progression between recent deathe to skeletal remains and I think we don’t want to go there but nowhere via google can find I find estimated time of date of death ever claimed to be an perfect science, especially beyond 48 hours. This very same thing, time of death, arguments over time of death is almost always a highly disputed point in criminal trials as well.

Were you expecting the exact physical condition of their bodies to be publicly released and if so, how would that prove they murdered 3 innocent victims?

ETA - Although I do not condone that B&K murdered three innocent people in cold blood and then led police on a dangerous chase causing additional fear to people Northern Manitoba, they still deserve dignity upon death. Canada is much different than some of the US states where the death penalty still prevails and the general public gravitates toward details of the execution.

I think different cultures of various countries must be considered and if things are done differently, that’s often the reason.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Nothing was said about their faces being “instantly recognizable” that I ever recall. Only a comment about Ks facial hair which doesn’t readily decompose the same as skin, without going into graphic detail.

It was implied. The entire article was written as it was experienced at the time by the searchers. "At first, they could only see one of the fugitives in the sloped thick brush, Mr. McLeod. An RCMP officer scrambled out of the boat and raised his gun. Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls. Mr. Schmegelsky was found about 1 1/2 metres away, lower down on the slope. He was dressed in full camouflage. Their bodies, two SKS semi-automatic rifles and a video camera lay about 8 km from the torched SUV. The rifles had been used in the killings."

(Plus if it's really true that the video camera was left out in the open, as this article implies, it must not have been there for that long, or it would have been rained on...also shows their lack of planning.)

Were you expecting the exact physical condition of their bodies to be publicly released and if so, how would that prove they murdered 3 innocent victims?

No, but I don't understand why it's some big secret (approximately) when they died. We already know literally everything else about the timeline besides that, down to what random items were found on what days.

It is information that is relevant to the public because the search is publicly funded and that could give information on the effectiveness of the search tactics, or lack thereof.

The only way it makes sense to me that the police would keep it a secret, is if they think it would be bad publicity for people to know how long these two evaded the police. It already doesn't look good for the police that it took them over two weeks when these guys were within five miles of their car and also right next to a river, not deep in the woods where they would be harder to find. And that the police wasted so many resources on the ridiculous York Landing tip (someone explain to me how anyone would think those two could have feasibly gotten there!)

Also just going to leave this here...I don't think there would have been much left of them had they been dead for an extended period of time.
Decomposition

Anyway I think I've explained myself on this topic enough times. You're not going to change my opinion.

 

[Jan424]

It was implied. The entire article was written as it was experienced at the time by the searchers. "At first, they could only see one of the fugitives in the sloped thick brush, Mr. McLeod. An RCMP officer scrambled out of the boat and raised his gun. Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls. Mr. Schmegelsky was found about 1 1/2 metres away, lower down on the slope. He was dressed in full camouflage. Their bodies, two SKS semi-automatic rifles and a video camera lay about 8 km from the torched SUV. The rifles had been used in the killings."
(Plus if it's really true that the video camera was left out in the open, as this article implies, it must not have been there for that long, or it would have been rained on...also shows their lack of planning.)

Just wanted to touch on this, as I posted a day or so ago, about the very same wording from the article. I was thinking, that from where they were in the boat on the shoreline, the officer likely could see Kam (and his beard, which does not surprise me) through the THICK BRUSH but, unless they were skeletons, which they surely were not, its possible his exact condition could not be seen from the brush. We heard he was sitting up, and I would think an officer would draw his gun as a general precaution. Also, they could have covered the video camera, to be sure their images and words were seen. I'd think that would be a priority for them. Of course, I could be totally wrong on all of it, and that's okay .... cause its JMHO!

 

[Runningforthewind]

I personally think they were deceased a week or less by the time they were found. It was summertime, even with some cooler evenings, damp, and humid. Add in insects, ravens, and wildlife. July 31 to August 4th is the timeframe where I believe these two passed.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Just wanted to touch on this, as I posted a day or so ago, about the very same wording from the article. I was thinking, that from where they were in the boat on the shoreline, the officer likely could see Kam (and his beard, which does not surprise me) through the THICK BRUSH but, unless they were skeletons, which they surely were not, its possible his exact condition could not be seen from the brush. We heard he was sitting up, and I would think an officer would draw his gun as a general precaution.

Right but according to that decomposition article I posted, an entire elk carcass was gone in 10 days...and that was in the fall, in an area with not as many insects as northern Manitoba....

Also, they could have covered the video camera, to be sure their images and words were seen. I'd think that would be a priority for them.

It's possible, although the wording of the article doesn't make it sound that way.

I personally think they were deceased a week or less by the time they were found. It was summertime, even with some cooler evenings, damp, and humid. Add in insects, ravens, and wildlife. July 31 to August 4th is the timeframe where I believe these two passed.

Yeah I'm thinking the same. Originally I thought they didn't live that long, but, after hearing more details about the discovery of their bodies, it became evident they lasted longer than most of us thought.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Yeah I'm thinking the same. Originally I thought they didn't live that long, but, after hearing more details about the discovery of their bodies, it became evident they lasted longer than most of us thought.

I also did some basic research and there is quite of few different type of edible berries plus whatever snacks they brought along. I wonder if Mr. Dyck had any insect repellant as well.

 

[MistyWaters]

I personally think they were deceased a week or less by the time they were found. It was summertime, even with some cooler evenings, damp, and humid. Add in insects, ravens, and wildlife. July 31 to August 4th is the timeframe where I believe these two passed.

Something that’s common about Canadian weather is we often tend to optimistically look toward the high daily temperature. But when there’s a great variance between high and low temps, often the high is reached for only a couple of hours in the late afternoon and the low temperature is the reality for many more hours throughout the night and well into the morning. I notice from July 24th to the end of the month the Gillam low is 10C or below. That’s darn cold, about 50F. Add possible wind and precipitation, it seems even colder. I don’t think they lasted long because the mild temperatures on Vancouver Island did not prepare them with the fact most of the rest of the country experiences very chilly nights but that’s JMO. Rain pants protect one from rain but not from cold.

Gillam, Manitoba - Monthly Calendar - The Weather Network

Confusion, weakness and drowsiness are some of the known symptoms connected to the onset of hypothermia.
Hypothermia - Symptoms and causes

 

[Jan424]

I personally think they were deceased a week or less by the time they were found. It was summertime, even with some cooler evenings, damp, and humid. Add in insects, ravens, and wildlife. July 31 to August 4th is the timeframe where I believe these two passed.

You could be correct. I thought the last few days of July .... no later than July 31st ... just my guess! We may never know though.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I notice from July 24th to the end of the month the Gillam low is 10C or below. That’s darn cold, about 50F. Add possible wind and precipitation, it seems even colder. I don’t think they lasted long because the mild temperatures on Vancouver Island did not prepare them with the fact the rest of the country experiences very chilly nights but that’s JMO. Rain pants protect one from rain but not cold.

The weather is only one factor. Beside July 25th and 26th, the weather wasn't too bad. But have you ever been to Northern Canada. From experience traveling in Nothern Ontario, in a less bushy area then Nothern Manitoba where they were found, the insects were terrible. That would have more of an impact on a deceased person then the weather.

My opinion stands based on logic that they likely died sometime after July 31.

 

[Jan424]

Right but according to that decomposition article I posted, an entire elk carcass was gone in 10 days...and that was in the fall, in an area with not as many insects as northern Manitoba....

It's possible, although the wording of the article doesn't make it sound that way.

Yeah I'm thinking the same. Originally I thought they didn't live that long, but, after hearing more details about the discovery of their bodies, it became evident they lasted longer than most of us thought.

Yes, totally possible, all of it .... I have read so much on decomposition online lately, I'm nauseated. But the factors that determine how rapidly decomp takes over is staggering.
I never gave the article wording on the video camera a thought .... how would K&B know when their bodies would be found? I'd think they would cover the camera somehow, even in a plastic bag and placed underneath something .... otherwise, their video escapades were all for nothing. IMO