Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Jan424]

The weather is only one factor. Beside July 25th and 26th, the weather wasn't too bad. But have you ever been to Northern Canada. From experience traveling in Nothern Ontario, in a less bushy area then Nothern Manitoba where they were found, the insects were terrible. That would have more of an impact on a deceased person then the weather.

My opinion stands based on logic that they likely died sometime after July 31.

Even the amount of clothing they had on factors into the speed of decomposition, among so many other variables.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I'd think they would cover the camera somehow, even in a plastic bag and placed underneath something .... otherwise, their video escapades were all for nothing. IMO

There is also the possibility there was no hidden meaning at all and they were just bored.

 

[Jan424]

There is also the possibility there was no hidden meaning at all and they were just bored.

Well, their last will and testament was on that camera also, and I think they wanted at least that video to be seen. And I wasn't suggesting there was any hidden meaning, but I happen to believe they wanted those videos seen. JMO

 

[NJSleuth91]

Yes, totally possible, all of it .... I have read so much on decomposition online lately, I'm nauseated. But the factors that determine how rapidly decomp takes over is staggering.

It's hard to determine, but you can see the amount of flies in the area from any video shot at the time of the search. Either way they clearly weren't skeletal or "NSFL," which most of us kind of originally thought would be the case.

I never gave the article wording on the video camera a thought .... how would K&B know when their bodies would be found? I'd think they would cover the camera somehow, even in a plastic bag and placed underneath something .... otherwise, their video escapades were all for nothing. IMO

Yeah I'm not sure on that part. But I think they knew they would be found soon. Especially if they were alive by August 1st or 2nd and saw searchers nearby (remember, they were at a vantage point on top of a cliff) that found the items they left. That would explain why they mentioned feeling "cornered" on one of the videos, and why the police were so confident they were "no longer a threat" before their bodies were even found (being only 0.6 miles away, the police would have heard the gunshots if they killed themselves after August 1st...there are videos online of people shooting SKS rifles and they are LOUD).

I even wonder if they lured the RCMP to their location by leaving a trail of items, only to kill themselves as the police closed in, rather than engage in a shootout. Sort of one last way to "troll" people and exert power, like "we could have killed you...but we didn't." Or it could have been simply that they just wanted to keep going as long as they could, like a video game, and once the police showed up, they were like "ok, well that's it for us."

 

[Runningforthewind]

Even the amount of clothing they had on factors into the speed of decomposition, among so many other variables.

Based on a bit of weather data I screenshot for Gillam, Manitoba. July 25th and 26th were the two coldest days they would have had to endure, and even going into July 27 it warmed up fairly early in the day. With most of the temperature being warm for atleast half the day, and insects, wildlife, and ravens I don't see how they were dead more than a week. They wouldn't be recognizable. While I do think the rain gear likely had an impact but not to that degree. I think July 31/August 1 s the most likely day, but before that I'd be really surprised.

 

[ktm44]

Yes but that was after two months of not releasing anything, even to the suspects' families. It turns out they had evidence of a failed murder attempt that showed their M.O. and gave a lot of information as to motive, by July 21st. And it turns out they had enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murders by July 24th.

Instead they allowed two months of people speculating they were innocent and it was a coverup, and information about the videos leaking, and Bryer's dad ranting to the media because they wouldn't even release any information to him about why his son was implicated in three homicides, etc. How much discussion do you think would have gone on about this case even on here, if we had known those details earlier about the failed murder attempt and the ballistics? I think the only reason they ultimately released as much as they did is because they realized they messed up. I don't think they ever intended for the information about the videos' existence to come out, and it only did because they insisted on withholding information and one of the suspects' families probably leaked it to pressure them.

You can't even argue that the secrecy didn't fuel public attention because it's literally the #1 thing that did. Like, factually speaking, that can't even be argued.



Well, at this point, we don't know. The fact that they were instantly recognizable upon being found, in an area full of flying insects, indicates to me they probably weren't dead as long as we initially thought.

I've thought about that failed attempt and many times and remain torn. There was a delay in the reporting the incident and if I'm not mistaken, the description of the vehicle didn't match the description of Kam's truck.

I believe that it was them and witness accounts aren't always correct but I'm not sure the public would have benefitted from being told to watch for an entirely wrong vehicle. Perhaps that report actually delayed tying the two murders together.

I've watched several high profile cases in Canada and regardless of how an investigation is going, there always seems to be a demand for immediate answers, even if the RCMP doesn't have them all and wild speculation. Even the Humboldt bus accident was rife with speculation. The RCMP were quick to indicate that they had a great deal of evidence to process, including one motor being sent for further analysis. That didn't stop people from speculating that our Prime Minister was protecting the driver or the RCMP had helped him flee the country.

I've watched some high profile crimes in the US and there seems to be plenty of speculation as well. I believe a lot of it comes from the public's desire for immediate answers just it

The families of victims receive information only when it's been proven fact and the families of those who have committed crimes recieve information the same, regardless of AS's media rants. I believe that a AS custody status and the strained relationship with his ex impacted his access to information. Based on firsthand experience, police information is shared with direct next of kin, who is expected to pass that information on to those they want to know.

I don't feel the RCMP messed up but I do know from personal experience that they don't disclose much beyond 'our investigation is ongoing' until they have sufficient concluded their investigation to the point where they have sufficient grounds to draw conclusions. I don't believe they intended to ever release the videos to the public nor do I believe they should, out of respect for the victims and their families but I do believe that it was evidence that tied up loose ends and they were obligated to present their findings. As soon as they showed it to it to one person, they would have known the media would become aware of it's existence.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I've thought about that failed attempt and many times and remain torn. There was a delay in the reporting the incident and if I'm not mistaken, the description of the vehicle didn't match the description of Kam's truck.

I believe that it was them and witness accounts aren't always correct but I'm not sure the public would have benefitted from being told to watch for an entirely wrong vehicle. Perhaps that report actually delayed tying the two murders together.

I am really torn, but I feel like there is too much doubt for it to been consider fact,

 

[Runningforthewind]

I don't believe they intended to ever release the videos to the public nor do I believe they should, out of respect for the victims and their families but I do believe that it was evidence that tied up loose ends and they were obligated to present their findings.

I agree the public doesn't need to see the videos, but I would watch them if they were available. But I do think all the familes, Kam and Bryer's included should be able to watch them if they choose too.

 

[sandbar]

sbm
[QUOTE="NJSleuth91, post: 15477576, member: 249582]"You will never, ever convince me that this case would have gotten the level of attention it did if the police were more upfront with what they knew from the beginning. The secrecy fueled a lot of the interest."
[/QUOTE]
Please google police procedure, or investigative techniques. We all get that you think RCMP were secretive. I believe they were following a protocol. You might disagree with that protocol.

I believe many people would be making the reverse of your argument if RCMP had released incomplete, unsubstantiated, or information that proved.

Enough, please.

ETA the entire quote.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Yes but that was after two months of not releasing anything, even to the suspects' families. It turns out they had evidence of a failed murder attempt that showed their M.O. and gave a lot of information as to motive, by July 21st. And it turns out they had enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murders by July 24th.

Without a murder weapon (at the time) they didn't have enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murder.

 

[Jan424]

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Based on a bit of weather data I screenshot for Gillam, Manitoba. July 25th and 26th were the two coldest days they would have had to endure, and even going into July 27 it warmed up fairly early in the day. With most of the temperature being warm for atleast half the day, and insects, wildlife, and ravens I don't see how they were dead more than a week. They wouldn't be recognizable. While I do think the rain gear likely had an impact but not to that degree. I think July 31/August 1 s the most likely day, but before that I'd be really surprised.

Well I’m neither a medical examiner nor a forensic entomologist so I don’t know when they died. I was speculating simply because it seemed, at one point, after the burning of Dyck’s vehicle, all of their activity stopped and sightings ceased. Plus, I can’t see them foraging or surviving in the bush long. So I was concluding they were deceased by then. Once again, though, I could be wrong. IMO

 

[NJSleuth91]

I've thought about that failed attempt and many times and remain torn. There was a delay in the reporting the incident and if I'm not mistaken, the description of the vehicle didn't match the description of Kam's truck.

I believe that it was them and witness accounts aren't always correct but I'm not sure the public would have benefitted from being told to watch for an entirely wrong vehicle. Perhaps that report actually delayed tying the two murders together.

I'm not saying anything about the public being told to be on the lookout. What I'm saying is:

a) If the police had mentioned the July 17th murder attempt during the August 7th press conference, that would have ended a lot of the speculation about motive, premeditation, etc. and therefore a lot of the public attention to this case. Since there wasn't going to be a trial, there was no reason not to mention it at that point.

b) The police had this witness account on July 21st indicating Kam and Bryer may have been involved in the murders rather than victims. Yes, the car description was inaccurate, but that is very common for witness accounts, especially in a high stress situation, especially at night. Yet they weren't named suspects until late on the 22nd by which time they had already burned the car and gone into the woods. Between the time when this witness report was made and the time when they were named suspects, they were stopped by the police, but let go because they weren't listed as either missing or suspects in the database at the time. This entire manhunt could have been avoided and it's possible they could even have been captured alive on the 22nd.

The families of victims receive information only when it's been proven fact

Yes and my point is the police had definitive evidence tying them to all three murders as well as a fourth attempted murder by July 24th.

There's also significant evidence to indicate that the other members of the suspects' families didn't get information either. For example Bryer's great-uncle said on August 9th that they hadn't gotten any more information than what was in the media. The leaking of the information about the videos -- twice, first that the goodbye video existed, and then that there were multiple videos -- must have been done by some of the suspects' family members (and not Bryer's dad because he didn't even know about the goodbye video until after its existence was leaked to the media, and by the time the multiple videos detail leaked, he was under an NDA). The logical reason for that would be to put pressure on the police. (Plus there's other information I've come across suggesting that other family members didn't get any more information than the public did, but it's not substantiated enough to elaborate on here.)

I don't believe they intended to ever release the videos to the public nor do I believe they should, out of respect for the victims and their families but I do believe that it was evidence that tied up loose ends and they were obligated to present their findings.

I don't believe the police would have ever disclosed the existence of the videos had the information about them not been leaked. There was no reason to -- they had enough evidence to say Kam and Bryer did it either way and the videos didn't provide any information as to motive. And the only reason why the information about the videos leaked to the media was because of the secrecy.

Without a murder weapon (at the time) they didn't have enough to charge them with Lucas and Chynna's murder.

Except they did. It says right there in the report: "On July 24, 2019, the firearms lab provided preliminary findings to the investigators. There were two firearms used in the Fort Nelson homicide, both of 7.62 x 39 mm calibre. One of the guns used in Fort Nelson was used in the Dease Lake homicide."

They already had enough to charge them with Professor Dyck's murder by July 23rd. So by the transitive property of murder weapons, it would logically follow that they could also have charged them with Lucas and Chynna's murders by July 24th. And could have told the public at least by August 7th (since they knew there wouldn't be a trial by then) that the same weapons were used. Both of which would have completely ended the significant amount of speculation and conspiracy theories on whether they really did it, and a lot of the media attention with it.

tl;dr The police created most of the publicity and notoriety of this case.

 

[Jan424]

SBM
I don't believe the police would have ever disclosed the existence of the videos had the information about them not been leaked. There was no reason to -- they had enough evidence to say Kam and Bryer did it either way and the videos didn't provide any information as to motive. And the only reason why the information about the videos leaked to the media was because of the secrecy.

I'm genuinely curious as to what you might think the reason would be why the RCMP would not share even the "existence" of the videos with the public. What would they gain by that? See I think they would have, it did tie up a lot of loose ends. Maybe it didn't answer every single question, but it did provide much information we wondered about.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I'm genuinely curious as to what you might think the reason would be why the RCMP would not share even the "existence" of the videos with the public. What would they gain by that? See I think they would have, it did tie up a lot of loose ends. Maybe it didn't answer every single question, but it did provide much information we wondered about.

Same as people have been saying, to keep publicity and notoriety off the suspects, which appears to be a stated aim of the RCMP (in theory if not in practice).

 

[Jan424]

Same as people have been saying, to keep publicity and notoriety off the suspects, which appears to be a stated aim of the RCMP (in theory if not in practice).

Okay, I see, thank you. I suppose that is possible, but I just don't agree that there is any nefarious secrecy the RCMP has exhibited with this case. JMO

 

[CaseZero]

Even I could have worked my way up using trees and shrubs to pull myself up, and I have a slight disability!

Perhaps one was injured from the trip down, like a sprained ankle (or worse). Perhaps wildlife was stalking them and they didn't want to "walk into their jaws". Perhaps they were too weak from lack of food. Perhaps they were aware there was a search going on and they knew they'd be caught if they went back up the riverbank.

Or maybe they knew at that point they were done, physically and mentally, that law enforcement wasn’t far away and there was no magical boat appearing to take them to Neverland. They were basically up s*** creek without a paddle, so to speak.

 

[Zella]

They were basically up s*** creek without a paddle, so to speak.

SBM

Quite literally, really.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Okay, I see, thank you. I suppose that is possible, but I just don't agree that there is any nefarious secrecy the RCMP has exhibited with this case. JMO

I never said "nefarious." I just said I think it had the opposite effect of what was intended, in terms of publicity, media attention, and re-traumatizing the affected families.

And I think with more application of common sense (ie. naming them suspects after the July 21st witness account, and not taking the York Landing sighting seriously because it was not feasible) maybe they could have captured/found them sooner, maybe even alive, either on the 22nd or sooner in the manhunt.

 

[sprucetip]

I personally think they were deceased a week or less by the time they were found. It was summertime, even with some cooler evenings, damp, and humid. Add in insects, ravens, and wildlife. July 31 to August 4th is the timeframe where I believe these two passed.

It may have been raining, but it is not humid at all in that area. It's a dry region.

 

[sprucetip]

Something that’s common about Canadian weather is we often tend to optimistically look toward the high daily temperature. But when there’s a great variance between high and low temps, often the high is reached for only a couple of hours in the late afternoon and the low temperature is the reality for many more hours throughout the night and well into the morning. I notice from July 24th to the end of the month the Gillam low is 10C or below. That’s darn cold, about 50F. Add possible wind and precipitation, it seems even colder. I don’t think they lasted long because the mild temperatures on Vancouver Island did not prepare them with the fact most of the rest of the country experiences very chilly nights but that’s JMO. Rain pants protect one from rain but not from cold.

Gillam, Manitoba - Monthly Calendar - The Weather Network

Confusion, weakness and drowsiness are some of the known symptoms connected to the onset of hypothermia.
Hypothermia - Symptoms and causes

Totally agree. I've mentioned before how easy one can get hypothermia in these conditions. Especially if you are wet, 5-8C at night feels darned cold when you are wet, moist or just a bit chilly.

It also explains why their bodies could have decomposed slower than people think. Temps at night drop a lot and insects move slower in the colder temps.