Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Jan424]

I never said "nefarious." I just said I think it had the opposite effect of what was intended, in terms of publicity, media attention, and re-traumatizing the affected families.

And I think with more application of common sense (ie. naming them suspects after the July 21st witness account, and not taking the York Landing sighting seriously because it was not feasible) maybe they could have captured/found them sooner, maybe even alive, either on the 22nd or sooner in the manhunt.

No you never used the word but, at this point, your criticisms of the RCMP suggest you either think they are the totally incompetent or underhanded. I’m not saying they were perfect but it’s so easy to say what they should have or could have done differently from our perspective. Judging from the report, they knew what they were doing and, as someone else put it, following protocol. Not to mention the endless hours they all put in searching for these two lame brains.
But you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I guess we can just agree to disagree on this particular subject.

 

[sprucetip]

Well I’m neither a medical examiner nor a forensic entomologist so I don’t know when they died. I was speculating simply because it seemed, at one point, after the burning of Dyck’s vehicle, all of their activity stopped and sightings ceased. Plus, I can’t see them foraging or surviving in the bush long. So I was concluding they were deceased by then. Once again, though, I could be wrong. IMO

I agree. That and the lack of the heat-seeking equipment finding them makes me think they perished soon after they left that burning vehicle. You can show me all the decomposition and weather pages you want but it doesn't prove anything here. There are way too many variables to assume time of death based on decomposition.

 

[Errrr]

The weather is only one factor. Beside July 25th and 26th, the weather wasn't too bad. But have you ever been to Northern Canada. From experience traveling in Nothern Ontario, in a less bushy area then Nothern Manitoba where they were found, the insects were terrible. That would have more of an impact on a deceased person then the weather.

My opinion stands based on logic that they likely died sometime after July 31.

mozzies don’t eat dead people.

 

[Runningforthewind]

mozzies don’t eat dead people.

It isn't just mosquitos but other insects that feast on decay. Then there are birds, especially ravens that feast during the decomposition cycle.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Except they did. It says right there in the report: "On July 24, 2019, the firearms lab provided preliminary findings to the investigators. There were two firearms used in the Fort Nelson homicide, both of 7.62 x 39 mm calibre. One of the guns used in Fort Nelson was used in the Dease Lake homicide."

That just proved that the two murders were linked. They could only prove a link at that time for them to Mr. Dyck's crime scene because they left a bunch of evidence and were found in his vehicle, so they had probable cause. From the sound of things by the time they were named suspects the only evidence they had was that the two crime scene were linked, and possibly that they were in the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

Weather and bush -

“The woods here are unlike those of Southern Canada. Within moments of stepping in, you’re swallowed by trees, sand flies and mosquitoes. It’s hard to see much beyond a few steps. At times, the ground is boggy and there are scant defined trails. One misstep and you’ll be knee-deep in muskeg or clay near the river.

For the first few days, the B.C. fugitives would have enjoyed warm, dry weather. Then the temperature dropped from a high of 30 C in the day to the low teens with a biting rain. “Those woods are ferocious,” says Insp. Lewis, who was recently promoted to superintendent of Manitoba North. “It was going to be very tough for them to stay alive in those woods for any extreme length of time. Even a week would be very difficult.”...”
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

 

[sandbar]

“The woods here are unlike those of Southern Canada. Within moments of stepping in, you’re swallowed by trees, sand flies and mosquitoes. It’s hard to see much beyond a few steps. At times, the ground is boggy and there are scant defined trails. One misstep and you’ll be knee-deep in muskeg or clay near the river.

And remember the footage* of the searchers in orange vests walking into the woods? They were gone in like 2 steps.

O/T I wish I kept better track of references. I'm on a Note 9, anyone have a system?

 

[MistyWaters]

It isn't just mosquitos but other insects that feast on decay. Then there are birds, especially ravens that feast during the decomposition cycle.

Yes and it was ravens that alerted to where the two were eventually found. In the description of their clothing, I notice heavy jackets are not mentioned. Also Mr Beardy says the two were not noticed until the boat got to the shore as their bodies were in the sloped brush.

“The last day was a miserable day because the weather wasn't on our side," he said. "The water was so rough."

So was the shoreline. The banks are steep, says Beardy — as high as 30 metres — and difficult to climb.

The officers weren’t sure exactly where the sleeping bag and backpack had been found, but Mr. Beardy remembered the spot. He powered down the jet boat as they approached the rapids, but they were still moving quickly in the fast-flowing water, giving them only split seconds to scan the shoreline.

That’s when Mr. Beardy noticed a raven jump up from the brush. “Did you see that?” he asked the officer behind him.

Mr. Beardy spun the boat around and headed toward where the raven had been. A lifelong hunter, he knew the bird could be scavenging on something.

“As soon as we got to the shore, sure enough, we saw them,” Mr. Beardy says.

At first, they could only see one of the fugitives in the sloped thick brush, Mr. McLeod. An RCMP officer scrambled out of the boat and raised his gun. Mr. McLeod was bearded, dressed in a camouflage top and black rain pants, Mr. Beardy recalls. Mr. Schmegelsky was found about 1 1/2 metres away, lower down on the slope. He was dressed in full camouflage.”
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

 

[Esprite]

I can't fault the RCMP's conduct too much during the search, except for not employing Billy Beardy immediately after he came upon the burning Rav4. Besides his awesome skills on the Nelson River, which ultimately contributed to finding the bodies, Beardy is also a trapper and hunting guide, and therefore a tracker, who is quite familiar with the impenetrable bush in that area.

Also, Clint Sawchuk, who spotted the sleeping bag from his vantage point on the river, would have been very useful in the search, although he probably was busy with his Nelson River water tours to historic York Factory by that time.

Nelson River Adventures | Welcome

My Wilderness Adventure to York Factory, Manitoba | BCRobyn

 

[musicaljoke]

Just my 2 cents on the RCMP …. I never expected them to release the amount of information they did in the final report. I was surprised and satisfied. Maybe they included more details in order to end some unnecessary speculation and conspiracy theories (though I suspect that will continue). What their report proved to me is that they had so much MORE right from the get go. Simply because we didn’t know what they were doing for 3 weeks, did not mean they didn’t have plenty of information, evidence, and hard work behind the scenes. For the love of God, some even believed the RCMP did not track their phones (or at least Bryer's), which would have made them absurdly incompetent. Now we learn of course they did …… and that was just one part of the bigger picture.

I personally don’t believe Kam and Bryer survived very long in the bush before being found dead. We don’t know how long they eluded the police, but they were not seasoned escape artists. I’d say they just had beginner’s luck. I think the RCMP did a thorough job with difficult circumstances and worked endlessly and tirelessly. Kam and Bryer ended up on that slope thanks to their own monumentally stupid decisions. No way they wanted a shootout with cops, they definitely wanted to end this on their terms.

Admittedly, I’d like to hear the toxicology report, as I’m very curious about that. If I learn a more approximate date of death, that would be interesting as well. But, whether they were dead 2 days, several days, a week .... it would not change my view of how the RCMP handled this case.

Just all my opinion!!

We might hear a bit more about the case once the charges are withdrawn. Between the time charges are laid until the time they are withdrawn, the press is in a sticky position. They have to balance the suspects' right to a fair trial with media right to free press. The press can be held in contempt of court if they release information that can prejudice a trial. In high profile cases it becomes very important that the press doesn't create so much publicity that the judge dismisses certain evidence, or dismisses the case entirely. But once charges are withdrawn, the press has freedom to publish all they know about the case.

https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/...s/2015/03/cp209_contempt_of_court_summary.pdf

 

[sandbar]

Besides his awesome skills on the Nelson River, which ultimately contributed to finding the bodies, Beardy is also a trapper and hunting guide, and therefore a tracker, who is quite familiar with the impenetrable bush in that area.

sbm
I would also fault the RCMP for using Beardy's skills while not insisting that he wear a bullet-proof vest.
It's wrong on so many levels.
We don't even know if they offered him a vest. But IIRC he said in the same article that he wasn't wearing one.

 

[musicaljoke]

sbm
I would also fault the RCMP for using Beardy's skills while not insisting that he wear a bullet-proof vest.
It's wrong on so many levels.
We don't even know if they offered him a vest. But IIRC he said in the same article that he wasn't wearing one.

Was this a hint that the RCMP believed the suspects were dead?

 

[MistyWaters]

source -
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

This map isn’t copying correctly because the print is lost but going by where the bodies were found, it seems as if the two backtracked at some point from the location where the sleeping bag and backpack were found further downstream.

Disorientation? Exhausted, they hoped to hitch a ride to Hudson Bay as opposed to struggling through the dense bush while sinking in muskeg? Hiding from air searches at a lower elevation? We’ll never know but I’d bet the rainy weather made that steep slope impossible to climb back up in a weakened condition. I think those trees are lodgepole pine and in the north they can grow to a height of 80 ft, but in a photo the height of a typical evergreen tree causes the banks to appear much less formidable.

 

[sandbar]

Was this a hint that the RCMP believed the suspects were dead?

Possibly, but then the question becomes: were RCMP wearing vests?
And I'll bet yes.

 

[Esprite]

Was this a hint that the RCMP believed the suspects were dead?

They should have taken Billy's safety into consideration, even if this was the case.

 

[Esprite]

sbm
I would also fault the RCMP for using Beardy's skills while not insisting that he wear a bullet-proof vest.
It's wrong on so many levels.
We don't even know if they offered him a vest. But IIRC he said in the same article that he wasn't wearing one.

And that he felt very nervous, and rightfully so.

 

[MistyWaters]

Was this a hint that the RCMP believed the suspects were dead?

I can certainly understand Mr Beardy’s alarm after discovering the dead bodies and being hit with the realization of the danger the two posed after seeing first-hand their guns laying beside their bodies.

But it does appear the RCMP believed the two couldn’t have survived that length of time in the bush. It was amazing their bodies were discovered and if not for their discarded articles, it would’ve been like finding a needle in a haystack IMO.

“It had been 12 days since police began their manhunt around Sundance Creek, and despite finding evidence of the fugitives, Insp. Fiedler was considering winding down the search.

Manitoba RCMP officers believed the men could not have survived and there was a good chance their bodies would never be found. Predators such as bears and wolves may have gotten to them. Or they could have drowned in the Nelson River and been swept to Hudson Bay.”
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

 

[poupetty77]

I can certainly understand Mr Beardy’s alarm after discovering the dead bodies and being hit with the realization of the danger the two posed after seeing first-hand their guns laying beside their bodies.

But it does appear the RCMP believed the two couldn’t have survived that length of time in the bush.

“It had been 12 days since police began their manhunt around Sundance Creek, and despite finding evidence of the fugitives, Insp. Fiedler was considering winding down the search.

Manitoba RCMP officers believed the men could not have survived and there was a good chance their bodies would never be found. Predators such as bears and wolves may have gotten to them. Or they could have drowned in the Nelson River and been swept to Hudson Bay.”
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

They still could have spared one vest for the civilian helping them.

 

[Esprite]

View attachment 208583 View attachment 208584
source -
How the RCMP found Canada’s most wanted fugitives with a raven, a Cree trapper and luck

This map isn’t copying correctly because the print is lost but going by where the bodies were found, it seems as if the two backtracked at some point from the location where the sleeping bag and backpack were found further downstream.

Disorientation? Exhausted, they hoped to hitch a ride to Hudson Bay as opposed to struggling through the dense bush while sinking in muskeg? Hiding from air searches at a lower elevation? We’ll never know but I’d bet the rainy weather made that steep slope impossible to climb back up in a weakened condition. I think those trees are lodgepole pine and in the north they can grow to a height of 80 ft, but in a photo the height of a typical evergreen tree causes the banks to appear much less formidable.

A good tracker, who is familiar with the area, could figure out in short order that they doubled back.

 

[MistyWaters]

A good tracker, who is familiar with the area, could figure out in short order that they doubled back.

But why would a good tracker want to track suspects who are armed and dangerous and risk getting shot to death? I think this is the reason it appears most of the initial search was conducted by air.