Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[DarkSkink]

You ignored Point 1.

Robert Dziekański case. They did that exact thing.

The seized video, refused to release it, publicly stated falsehoods as to what was on the video, and were eventually caught doing so.

 

[Trooper]

That's remote by my standards. New Jersey is half that size and has 9 million people. Plus most of the Vancouver Island population is in a few cities on the coast.



Social and mental health issues endemic to certain types of areas, especially in conjunction with lack of economic opportunity, can be considered as a factor, as was being discussed.

That's dense, by my standards. .. I'd call Vancouver Island crowded . By my standards, New Jersey would be classed as unliveable, and intolerable . I live in a population of 24 million on a island as big as the USA. That's twice the pop of NJ on approx. 403 times larger land size.

It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[DarkSkink]

That's dense, by my standards. .. I'd call Vancouver Island crowded . By my standards, New Jersey would be classed as unliveable, and intolerable . I live in a population of 24 million on a island as big as the USA. That's twice the pop of NJ on approx. 403 times larger land size.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Port Alberni is remote if you are a kid on a bicycle, not remote if you have a vehicle, but at the same time remote because you are on an Island, and require a Ferry to go anywhere but the Island... which can be economically prohibitive.

Economic prospects aren't bleak, but somewhat stagnant. You can only sell so much soap, and goats on a roof only attract so many tourists, so there goes that gimmick.

Pulp Mills aren't the financial contributors they once were. The markets are saturated with outdoor guides and kayak rentals and all things tourist. I would expect it to be difficult to be entrepreneurial, not impossible, but requiring some good creativity and skill to offer something new and financially viable.

There is always buying a franchise, but that requires start up money.

 

[Trooper]

No. But if the police have proof of motive and/or guilt, they should not have the discretionary power to withhold it because:

1) What they say is in the proof may not be the truth.

2) By knowing the pertinent details, society at large can discuss and adjust societal norms, laws, regulations, access to products etc. to actually prevent copycats.

It's like refusing to let people know how to use a stove, because someone burnt their hand on it and you don't want to have that happen again.

Where is this place where police can distribute at whim all details of a particular case to the general public?

And how , in that country , I don't know where it is, but I hope to avoid it, does a prosecutor mount a case against a murderer, for example, or a rapist even more so, if all the details are in the public domain? .

And following that, how on earth would a defence attorney, or barrister make a coherent defence for their client if everybody on the street knows the details ?

And where would a jury be gathered from if the details were given a public airing before trial .. ? do juries have to be imported from overseas? what is the procedure?

 

[DarkSkink]

Where is this place where police can distribute at whim all details of a particular case to the general public?

And how , in that country , I don't know where it is, but I hope to avoid it, does a prosecutor mount a case against a murderer, for example, or a rapist even more so, if all the details are in the public domain? .

And following that, how on earth would a defence attorney, or barrister make a coherent defence for their client if everybody on the street knows the details ?

And where would a jury be gathered from if the details were given a public airing before trial .. ? do juries have to be imported from overseas? what is the procedure?

The procedure is that the evidence is released after the trial and becomes public record.

As this case will not have a trial, the evidence gathered during the investigation should become public record and publicly accessible.

For all we know, the video could show the suspects being taken down by police, or the suspects could have incriminated someone else in the killings.

Again, there have been allegations of police involvement in disappearances along those northern BC highways.

Wouldn't that be a twist if the two were witnesses, and not suspects.

 

[DarkSkink]

The procedure is that the evidence is released after the trial and becomes public record.

As this case will not have a trial, the evidence gathered during the investigation should become public record and publicly accessible.

For all we know, the video could show the suspects being taken down by police, or the suspects could have incriminated someone else in the killings.

Again, there have been allegations of police involvement in disappearances along those northern BC highways.

Wouldn't that be a twist if the two were witnesses, and not suspects.

The families and the press should actually be petitioning the courts for access to those videos.

 

[Trooper]

Port Alberni is remote if you are a kid on a bicycle, not remote if you have a vehicle, but at the same time remote because you are on an Island, and require a Ferry to go anywhere but the Island... which can be economically prohibitive.

Economic prospects aren't bleak, but somewhat stagnant. You can only sell so much soap, and goats on a roof only attract so many tourists, so there goes that gimmick.

Pulp Mills aren't the financial contributors they once were. The markets are saturated with outdoor guides and kayak rentals and all things tourist. I would expect it to be difficult to be entrepreneurial, not impossible, but requiring some good creativity and skill to offer something new and financially viable.

There is always buying a franchise, but that requires start up money.

First World manufactured problems. Is the sea level rising so that the residents have to shift to high ground ? have the forests burned down? when did it last rain? Do the residents have access to clean water, and plenty of it?

Do they need a special pass to get off the island, and more significantly, a special pass to get back on ? are the residents allowed to leave at will? is food allowed to be ferried in? do the residents have to sign on to a agreed petition to never criticize the mayor? I see Port Alberni has a hospital! and doctors, and a few dentists. . perhaps even a cardiologist, or even an Ob-Gyn.. is anyone starving on Vancouver Island ? I don't mean the ones who do it voluntarily, that is , they choose to invest in mind altering substances rather than food. I mean people for whom it is unavoidable?

I notice a podiatrist, a district nurse, a few of those, some nurse practitioners, some very good schools that looked well maintained and one presumes well staffed. .
I don't see any armed guards patrolling the streets, or shattered housing, or many people limping and dragging themselves around .. looks fine, to me.

 

[DarkSkink]

First World manufactured problems. Is the sea level rising so that the residents have to shift to high ground ? have the forests burned down? when did it last rain? Do the residents have access to clean water, and plenty of it?

Do they need a special pass to get off the island, and more significantly, a special pass to get back on ? are the residents allowed to leave at will? is food allowed to be ferried in? do the residents have to sign on to a agreed petition to never criticize the mayor? I see Port Alberni has a hospital! and doctors, and a few dentists. . perhaps even a cardiologist, or even an Ob-Gyn.. is anyone starving on Vancouver Island ? I don't mean the ones who do it voluntarily, that is , they choose to invest in mind altering substances rather than food. I mean people for whom it is unavoidable?

I notice a podiatrist, a district nurse, a few of those, some nurse practitioners, some very good schools that looked well maintained and one presumes well staffed. .
I don't see any armed guards patrolling the streets, or shattered housing, or many people limping and dragging themselves around .. looks fine, to me.

Meaning what?

It also has a court record which shows serious family discord with allegations of abuse among other things.

The ability to Ferry in food means nothing when your family structure is ripped apart and you no longer have access to one parent suddenly when you are too young to understand why. That alone can create life-long attachment issues and anti-social traits.

The ability to learn, acquire life skills and knowledge, and develop empathy is difficult when none of it is taught or demonstrated and/or you inherited a mental illness genetically. That's a universal reality and the geographic location you are raised in doesn't somehow correct that or gift it to you magically.

 

[MistyWaters]

Robert Dziekański case. They did that exact thing.

The seized video, refused to release it, publicly stated falsehoods as to what was on the video, and were eventually caught doing so.

No, it’s not the exact thing at all. A witness did not tape B&K talking, using the Professor’s camera. It was the RCMP who confirmed the existence of the videos by showing the “Last Will and Testament” to their family members. Had the RCMP chose to not disclose the various videos were discovered with their bodies, nobody would’ve been none the wiser given the two featured on it were already dead.

 

[DarkSkink]

No, it’s not the exact thing at all. A witness did not tape B&K talking, using the Professor’s camera. It was the RCMP who confirmed the existence of the videos by showing the “Last Will and Testament” to their family members. Had the RCMP chose to not disclose the various videos were discovered with their bodies, nobody would’ve been none the wiser given the two featured on it were already dead.

You're missing the point of Point 1, that being the RCMP has previously suppressed incriminating video using official sounding excuses to protect their own interests.

They lied about the contents of the video publicly to protect their own misdeeds.

Who is to say there isn't something damning on those videos, and the RCMP aren't just fear mongering that releasing it could create copycats in order to suppress it?

Again, there were gunshots heard, denied and then admitted to by RCMP. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but there was a sighting, then gunshots, then days later and 100kms away they find bodies, without any explanation about those sightings.

 

[DarkSkink]

You're missing the point of Point 1, that being the RCMP has previously suppressed incriminating video using official sounding excuses to protect their own interests.

They lied about the contents of the video publicly to protect their own misdeeds.

Who is to say there isn't something damning on those videos, and the RCMP aren't just fear mongering that releasing it could create copycats in order to suppress it?

Again, there were gunshots heard, denied and then admitted to by RCMP. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but there was a sighting, then gunshots, then days later and 100kms away they find bodies, without any explanation about those sightings.

Remember that sighting? Two guys dressed like the suspects, digging in the dump? They ran into the bush when people entered the area?

Police swarm the area and gunshots are heard?

Why wasn't there an explanation about the sighting?

 

[Trooper]

Meaning what?

It also has a court record which shows serious family discord with allegations of abuse among other things.

The ability to Ferry in food means nothing when your family structure is ripped apart and you no longer have access to one parent suddenly when you are too young to understand why. That alone can create life-long attachment issues and anti-social traits.

The ability to learn, acquire life skills and knowledge, and develop empathy is difficult when none of it is taught or demonstrated and/or you inherited a mental illness genetically. That's a universal reality and the geographic location you are raised in doesn't somehow correct that or gift it to you magically.

what court record exists about K.McLeod? none. None whatsoever. No record of family discord . No record of 'family structure' ripped apart , and in the case of Bryer that may well have been the more safer path to follow . No record of K being unable to have access to either parent, at any time . Or anything that even hints of him being 'too young to understand' any darn thing. Nothing to back up the assertion that 'life long attachment issues and anti social traits' even existed in Kam much less were forced upon him

This is a terrific claim to make about this killer, with absolutely no backup whatsoever. In fact, the absolute opposite, K's father said he was devastated and that K was a nice boy, caring, loving! Kam lived at home all his life!... which goes to show how successful Kam was in mirroring the required responses to parental enquiries all his life.

So Port Alberni didn't seem to have had much input into Kam's supposed 'reality' , if one is trying to impose over the matrix all the peculiar outcomes one can concoct due to divorce .. my six brothers and sisters absolutely THRIVED due to divorce in the original family, we were incredibly lucky to have been gifted a spectacular step father, nutty as a fruit cake, ( his hobby was to chase us around the estate with an operative chainsaw revving away ) a man dedicated to educating his stepchildren and paying a fortune to give them every opportunity they desired. And then some. He was generous and loving and immensely amusing all the days of the life he spent with us. We adored him.

Really, it just isn't so to claim that all children of divorce suffer, many , many do not, and many , many thrive in the cessation of tension and competition.

 

[katydid23]

People in Europe read about mass shooters just as much as American people. See their faces, read the same information about them. We still don't have a growing Mass shooting problem. We don't have weekly school shootings.We do have problems, obviously. But not to the extend North America is experiencing it. Maybe the problem is somewhere else.

In my (uneducated and not professional) opinion, if a person is at the point to be so angry, suffering, mentally ill or disturbed that they want to murder people, they will. They will look up to the Columbine killers, K and B, Jeffrey Dahmer or the Little House in the Prairie, maybe. But they will act anyway no mater what. No one is going to read about Kam and Bryer (or any other teen killer) and suddenly think about killing just to copy them. Finding out IF something can be done to avoid anyone getting to that point is important IMO.

I mentioned the case of a high school with an epidemic of suicides problem. They tried to silence and ignore it and it didn't go well.

By any mean, let's not name the future mass/spree/serial killers in the media to avoid the incentive of "fame" as a motive to kill. But Kam and Bryer have been named already. I really genuinely do believe that understanding what happened in their case will help avoid copycats (or the occurence of the same events, even if it is not inspired by them) way more than pretending this case never happened. Understanding what happened in each case will. If the finding is "they were just sociopaths who managed to stay under the radar their whole life then suddenly decided to go a killing spree for no reason, out of the blue", then fine. At least it had been looked into. JMO.

Edited to add : I feel like some people think that looking to see if they had been failed in any way or if they could have been helped would be sharing the responsibility. It isn't. The second they acted, they were 100 % responsible and wrong. But it doesn't change the fact that maybe something could be made to stop the next teen killer to become one, and stop them before they act. Considering the number of countries were school shooters/mass killers don't happen, I would be inclined to say something can be done and it's not pretending there isn't a problem.

"People in Europe read about mass shooters just as much as American people. See their faces, read the same information about them. We still don't have a growing Mass shooting problem."

Really?

Alphabetically, listing this decade only:

• Alphen aan den Rijn shopping mall shooting

• 2013 Annaberg shooting
  
  • [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Belgorod_shooting']2013 Belgorod shooting
  • 2010 Bratislava shooting
    
    • [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcassonne_and_Tr%C3%A8bes_attack']Carcassonne and Trèbes attack
    • Charlie Hebdo shooting
    • • Hypercacher kosher supermarket siege
      I
      • January 2015 Île-de-France attacks
      • 2017 Istanbul nightclub shooting
      • • Jewish Museum of Belgium shooting
        K
        • Kerch Polytechnic College massacre
        L
        • 2011 Liège attack
        • 2010 Lörrach hospital shooting
        M
        • 2018 Malmö shooting
        • Murder of Karolin Hakim
        • 2012 Moscow shooting
        • 2016 Munich shooting
        N
        • 2016 Nenzing shooting
        • 2011 Norway attacks
        • November 2015 Paris attacks
        S
        • 2018 Strasbourg attack
        T
        • Toulouse and Montauban shootings
        U
        • Uherský Brod shooting
        • Utrecht tram shooting
        V
        • Velika Ivanča shooting
        Z
        • 2019 Zagreb shooting
        • Žitište shooting
    [/URL]
  [/URL]

I wouldn't agree that Europe doesn't have it's own problems with massacres. There is absolutely a problem and many are probably copycat crimes. JMO

 

[Trooper]

• 
  total snafu

 

[DarkSkink]

what court record exists about K.McLeod? none. None whatsoever. No record of family discord . No record of 'family structure' ripped apart , and in the case of Bryer that may well have been the more safer path to follow . No record of K being unable to have access to either parent, at any time . Or anything that even hints of him being 'too young to understand' any darn thing. Nothing to back up the assertion that 'life long attachment issues and anti social traits' even existed in Kam much less were forced upon him

This is a terrific claim to make about this killer, with absolutely no backup whatsoever. In fact, the absolute opposite, K's father said he was devastated and that K was a nice boy, caring, loving! Kam lived at home all his life!... which goes to show how successful Kam was in mirroring the required responses to parental enquiries all his life.

So Port Alberni didn't seem to have had much input into Kam's supposed 'reality' , if one is trying to impose over the matrix all the peculiar outcomes one can concoct due to divorce .. my six brothers and sisters absolutely THRIVED due to divorce in the original family, we were incredibly lucky to have been gifted a spectacular step father, nutty as a fruit cake, ( his hobby was to chase us around the estate with an operative chainsaw revving away ) a man dedicated to educating his stepchildren and paying a fortune to give them every opportunity they desired. And then some. He was generous and loving and immensely amusing all the days of the life he spent with us. We adored him.

Really, it just isn't so to claim that all children of divorce suffer, many , many do not, and many , many thrive in the cessation of tension and competition.

If you recall, AS went from saying the kids wouldn't hurt a fly to they're on a suicide mission.

What the parents have to say has to be taken with an entire salt flat.

Simply because there is no court record does not mean there was no childhood trauma, childhood neglect, abuse, injury or inherited illnesses. It is an obvious observation, and I apologize for having to make people read that the sky is blue.

Your own personal experiences apply to you only. Yes, sky is blue territory, but it is necessary to point it out once again.

To a child who has had illness and surgery, scraping their knee after crashing their bike might not be a big deal. For a child with a bubble wrap parent, scraping their knee might be the end of the world where they are no longer allowed to ride a bike and develop a bike phobia. Same experience experienced differently.

 

[Grouper]

"People in Europe read about mass shooters just as much as American people. See their faces, read the same information about them. We still don't have a growing Mass shooting problem."

Really?

Alphabetically, listing this decade only:

I wouldn't agree that Europe doesn't have it's own problems with massacres. There is absolutely a problem and many are probably copycat crimes. JMO

Just want to point out that the list you shared is minuscule compared to America’s stats — there have been “more mass shootings than days this year” (283, to be precise):

There have been more mass shootings than days this year

So yes, while these things occur in Europe, it is simply incomparable to what happens in America - 27 in this decade compared to 283 in this year alone

It’s like comparing the moon to Jupiter. Europe is not squeaky clean, but America is a sh*tshow.

Mass shootings are always a problem, in and of themselves. And they happen around the world. America has a gun violence problem. Europe has occasional gun violence, but I would not label it a problem that needs to be immediately addressed there. I would say America certainly does.

 

[katydid23]

Mass shootings aren't common in Canada, Europe, Asia, yet people living in all of those places suffer from mental illness and play video games.

Let's not get too carried away. Violence is violence, no matter the weapons available. Humans are humans, no matter where they live.

Knife crime rises to new record of 44,000 offences in England and Wales
Calls for urgent action to stop ‘spiral of violence’ as increase continues despite new government strategy
Knife crime rises to new record of 44,000 offences in England and Wales


Number of bomb attacks in Sweden has surged this year
Number of bomb attacks in Sweden has surged this year

 

[katydid23]

Just want to point out that the list you shared is minuscule compared to America’s stats — there have been “more mass shootings than days this year” (283, to be precise):

There have been more mass shootings than days this year

So yes, while these things occur in Europe, it is simply incomparable to what happens in America - 27 in this decade compared to 283 in this year alone

It’s like comparing the moon to Jupiter. Europe is not squeaky clean, but America is a sh*tshow.

True, we have way too many guns. But Britain has way too many knifings. And Sweden has way too many bombings.

All countries have their problems. We have issues with gun violence and with overcrowded urban centers with poverty and way too many weapons. It is a huge problem that we are struggling with.

But every country has their own share of violence. Americans are not monsters, as many others like to describe us. JMO

In Britain, kids are using knives every night on victims, and there are acid attacks on people. So people who live in glass houses needn't throw stones.


ETA:
Knife crime has risen to a new record in England and Wales, sparking calls for authorities to “break the spiral of violence”.

Police recorded more than 44,000 offences involving a knife or sharp instrument in the 12 months to June, up 7 per cent on the previous year.

Almost half were stabbings, 43 per cent were robberies, and offences also included rape and sexual assault.


There were 235 knife murders in the year, and 412 attempted murders.

[ the UK is much much smaller than the US. That 44,000 incidents its a lot.]

 

[DarkSkink]

True, we have way too many guns. But Britain has way too many knifings. And Sweden has way too many bombings.

All countries have their problems. We have issues with gun violence and with overcrowded urban centers with poverty and way too many weapons. It is a huge problem that we are struggling with.

But every country has their own share of violence. Americans are not monsters, as many others like to describe us. JMO

In Britain, kids are using knives every night on victims, and there are acid attacks on people. So people who live in glass houses needn't throw stones.

Yes.

Now are any of those acts of violence because someone else did something similar and they are copying it, or did they resolve to kill people on their own and are simply copying what was a successful attempt and maybe trying to one-up it?

 

[Trooper]

If you recall, AS went from saying the kids wouldn't hurt a fly to they're on a suicide mission.

What the parents have to say has to be taken with an entire salt flat.

Simply because there is no court record does not mean there was no childhood trauma, childhood neglect, abuse, injury or inherited illnesses. It is an obvious observation, and I apologize for having to make people read that the sky is blue.

Your own personal experiences apply to you only. Yes, sky is blue territory, but it is necessary to point it out once again.

To a child who has had illness and surgery, scraping their knee after crashing their bike might not be a big deal. For a child with a bubble wrap parent, scraping their knee might be the end of the world where they are no longer allowed to ride a bike and develop a bike phobia. Same experience experienced differently.

There is no evidence , no rumour, no report , nothing in any MSN or any other public forum that claims that Kam McLeod or his family ever saw the inside of a family court or ever came under it's jurisdiction at any time in Kam's life. No point claiming that, and attempting to call it obvious, when it clearly and positively is not, because there is no record for it that has seen the light of day. Just because one wants to have it so, doesn't make it so. It negates the argument that divorce is , without exception, bad. It just isn't so. If divorce is bad and that somehow explains Bryer, it doesn't explain Kam and trying to paint it as such just doesn't fly.