Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

[Trooper]

I just did.

This Columbine connection only exists in your mind, it didn't have any part, as far as anyone knows and that includes you, in the mind of K and B. They never mentioned it, or them, or that as a reason, as an example, as anything. It never came up as a subject among any one they spoke to, as far as is known. The RCMP never gave it even a nod as a factor. ..
I say this with no disrespect, but there is a point where this has to be examined and dissected, really. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

One can try and put the thought process into K and B on this matter, but there just is no link at all as far as THEY saw their process. Sure, anyone can put a connection to a whole lot of shootings, Danforth, Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal, The school in Finland , on and on , example after example. K and B never mentioned any of those as inspiration either.

 

[NJSleuth91]

(7). the big one, in my book. E and D were focused on people they knew, members of their own community, causing the maximum spread of revenge right across the board where they lived and died.

They planned to blow up the school and kill all 600 people. I doubt they knew all 600 of them. I don't think they even knew all the people they shot. One person they killed was a mentally disabled kid -- I doubt he bullied them. The stated motivation was to "kick-start a revolution" and show their godlike powers and stuff like that.

went right over the heads of both fathers.

Another factual error, what else is new. Bryer last talked to his dad on the 12th, before they even left, and his grandma on the 13th or 14th.

It was so good, giving no hint to the parents that they were conversing with murderers , and achieving a few more days of non scrutiny.

Well, Dylan went to prom three days before Columbine and hung out and joked around with people who he thought he would murder in three days. All four of them put on masks to the people they knew.

This Columbine connection only exists in your mind, it didn't have any part, as far as anyone knows and that includes you, in the mind of K and B. They never mentioned it, or them, or that as a reason, as an example, as anything. It never came up as a subject among any one they spoke to, as far as is known. The RCMP never gave it even a nod as a factor. ..
I say this with no disrespect, but there is a point where this has to be examined and dissected, really. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

One can try and put the thought process into K and B on this matter, but there just is no link at all as far as THEY saw their process. Sure, anyone can put a connection to a whole lot of shootings, Danforth, Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal, The school in Finland , on and on , example after example. K and B never mentioned any of those as inspiration either.

All I said is that two online Columbine forums inspired at least two mass shootings (one failed and one successful). In response to the question of whether true crime forums cause publicity for mass shooters.

 

[katydid23]

what is the co -relation of K and B and the Columbine shooters? … as distinct from any other school shooter? or shooters? anywhere in the world? keeping in mind that K and B were no where near what could be called a school shooter.

The co-relation of K/B and the Columbine killers is their potent similarities.

They were best of friends, who chose to go on a killing spree, and die together on their own terms. And there are videos and pictures of K/B, that some people want released.

When the videos and pix of the CK were released, it created an unforeseen situation, in which many young people began to romanticise them, see them as martyrs, and some even carried out copy cat crimes.

Because of the similarities,[ I.e, two tall, handsome, loners who go rogue and go on a shooting spree, and die as martyrs] ---the question arises----would there be similar issues if K and B'[s videos were released?

 

[Trooper]

Fair point. But at the same time, society as a whole may learn something about the psychology of what goes into triggering things like what they did.

Keeping people ignorant isn't the same as keeping people safe.

Since young men have been committing this kind of outrage for decades, .. why hasn't society learned already?

And again, I ask, who is keeping whom ignorant?

 

[DarkSkink]

If B&K were not copycat killers then the RCMP have no reason to fear copycats, is that what you’re saying? I think you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing because you’re not making any sense.

No. Context is being cherry picked.

If one thinks that B and K aren't copycat killers, then one must question if copycatting is actually an influence in the decision to kill.

If there is question as to the validity of copycatting being the sole reason for a mass kill, then is there any validity to the RCMP's assertion that they are preventing anything by not releasing the video.

 

[katydid23]

This Columbine connection only exists in your mind, it didn't have any part, as far as anyone knows and that includes you, in the mind of K and B. They never mentioned it, or them, or that as a reason, as an example, as anything. It never came up as a subject among any one they spoke to, as far as is known. The RCMP never gave it even a nod as a factor. ..
I say this with no disrespect, but there is a point where this has to be examined and dissected, really. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

One can try and put the thought process into K and B on this matter, but there just is no link at all as far as THEY saw their process. Sure, anyone can put a connection to a whole lot of shootings, Danforth, Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal, The school in Finland , on and on , example after example. K and B never mentioned any of those as inspiration either.

It does not matter, whether or not K and B ever thought of or even knew about Columbine. It makes not difference.

It does not matter one bit. That is not the point. JMO

 

[Trooper]

Who is keeping whom from ' learning ' stuff about this kind of crime and stopping it? I simply do not grasp the concept here, that some outre organization is keeping a world wide conspiracy going. This is the stuff of a very bad dinner and even worse wine..

yet still the persistent claim that people are 'being kept ignorant' and 'not allowed to learn stuff' about these crimes...

Not buying it.

 

[katydid23]

I see the dis-similarities with more focus.

(1) they didn't shoot up their school.

(2) they never mentioned any enemies they had at school as a motivation.

(3) they were absolutely silent as to their motivation up to the end.

(4) unlike Eric and Dylan, who were born blabbermouths, K and B maintained a curtain around themselves that few appeared to have pierced.

(5).. Eric and Dylan had a fixed target. They passed other people to get to the agreed upon target ( the other kids at school )

(6) K and B had unfixed targets, honing in on those who inadvertently crossed their path.

(7). the big one, in my book. E and D were focused on people they knew, members of their own community, causing the maximum spread of revenge right across the board where they lived and died.

(8). K and B chose to skitter on out north, far away from Port Alberni, out among strangers , far away from people they knew, not wanting to conduct their program among the community they knew.

(9). E and D got it all over with quickly, in comparison to K and B , who took their sweet time about it, and that means , to me, they had a certain set of circumstances for killing that had to be met for them to launch into the murdering. K and B strung it out for days. That had to be significant to them.

(10) their final words of K and B , if such it can be called , was brief, minus all the rantings and ravings of racist, ageist, genderist bollocking that E and D spend an inordinate amount of time on, relative to the crime they were about to commit.

(11)… in the middle of killing, in fact, between the killings of Mr Fowler and Miss Deese, both K and B rang their parents and put on a performance that, as usual , went right over the heads of both fathers. It was so good, giving no hint to the parents that they were conversing with murderers , and achieving a few more days of non scrutiny. E and D didn't do this, this last contact with reality. I regard that as deeply significant, also.

and so much more.

None of the above matters, one bit, in terms of the main question: Should the videos be released.

 

[katydid23]

No. Context is being cherry picked.

If one thinks that B and K aren't copycat killers, then one must question if copycatting is actually an influence in the decision to kill.

If there is question as to the validity of copycatting being the sole reason for a mass kill, then is there any validity to the RCMP's assertion that they are preventing anything by not releasing the video.

K and B were copycats in some ways. B liked Hitler memorabilia, liked to wear Nazi armbands and collect Old German knives.

So in some ways, he did have prior influences which may have affected his decisions to be violent.

 

[MistyWaters]

I see the dis-similarities with more focus.

(1) they didn't shoot up their school.

(2) they never mentioned any enemies they had at school as a motivation.

(3) they were absolutely silent as to their motivation up to the end.

(4) unlike Eric and Dylan, who were born blabbermouths, K and B maintained a curtain around themselves that few appeared to have pierced.

(5).. Eric and Dylan had a fixed target. They passed other people to get to the agreed upon target ( the other kids at school )

(6) K and B had unfixed targets, honing in on those who inadvertently crossed their path.

(7). the big one, in my book. E and D were focused on people they knew, members of their own community, causing the maximum spread of revenge right across the board where they lived and died.

(8). K and B chose to skitter on out north, far away from Port Alberni, out among strangers , far away from people they knew, not wanting to conduct their program among the community they knew.

(9). E and D got it all over with quickly, in comparison to K and B , who took their sweet time about it, and that means , to me, they had a certain set of circumstances for killing that had to be met for them to launch into the murdering. K and B strung it out for days. That had to be significant to them.

(10) their final words of K and B , if such it can be called , was brief, minus all the rantings and ravings of racist, ageist, genderist bollocking that E and D spend an inordinate amount of time on, relative to the crime they were about to commit.

(11)… in the middle of killing, in fact, between the killings of Mr Fowler and Miss Deese, both K and B rang their parents and put on a performance that, as usual , went right over the heads of both fathers. It was so good, giving no hint to the parents that they were conversing with murderers , and achieving a few more days of non scrutiny. E and D didn't do this, this last contact with reality. I regard that as deeply significant, also.

and so much more.

And in addition to stringing it out over days, the killing of the 3rd victim, Prof Dyck, afforded the opportunity to steal his car, his money and his supplies to facilitate a hasty cross country excursion.

Intentionally creating a reason to be pursued by police resembles the Trapper of Rat River far more than the Columbine high school shooting.

 

[katydid23]

Fair point. But at the same time, society as a whole may learn something about the psychology of what goes into triggering things like what they did.

Keeping people ignorant isn't the same as keeping people safe.

We know plenty about their psychology already. What else do we need to know?

 

[Trooper]

None of the above matters, one bit, in terms of the main question: Should the videos be released.

Good God No.. a thousands times no. One has to have some respect for the victims, this is merely one aspect, but the other is why should they be granted the publicity ? Who benefits from the video being released? only voyeurs. . there is absolutely nothing to learn from any video a couple of twerp killers made before they checked themselves out. Humans are better than that, and there is no call for nihilism and existential terminal embrace of death for no good purpose to be used as an advertising tool.

It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.

 

[katydid23]

And in addition to stringing it out over days, the killing of the 3rd victim, Prof Dyck, afforded the opportunity to steal his car, his money and his supplies to facilitate a hasty cross country excursion.

Intentionally creating a reason to be pursued by police resembles the Trapper of Rat River far more than the Columbine high school shooting.

The crimes are not similar in many ways. But I don't think that is the point.

In my opinion, the goal is to avoid having hordes of young people romanticise these two, making them martyrs. Which is what happened with Columbine.

We learned a harsh lesson with that. Releasing those videos was a major mistake that we cannot undo.

 

[katydid23]

Good God No.. a thousands times no. One has to have some respect for the victims, this is merely one aspect, but the other is why should they be granted the publicity ? Who benefits from the video being released? only voyeurs. . there is absolutely nothing to learn from any video a couple of twerp killers made before they checked themselves out. Humans are better than that, and there is no call for nihilism and existential terminal embrace of death for no good purpose to be used as an advertising tool.

It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.

OF COURSE, they shouldn't be released. And that is the ONLY reason I am discussing Columbine. Because we learned the hard way with that decision to allow their videos to be released. it was a horrible decision.

 

[Trooper]

And in addition to stringing it out over days, the killing of the 3rd victim, Prof Dyck, afforded the opportunity to steal his car, his money and his supplies to facilitate a hasty cross country excursion.

Intentionally creating a reason to be pursued by police resembles the Trapper of Rat River far more than the Columbine high school shooting.

I had forgotten that one. I thought they had more in tune with the two young soldiers Truman Capote wrote about all of nearly 1/2 a century ago, who, taking the position that they would be doing people a favour by killing them, thereby setting them free from angst, they went about distributing this favour all across the south west, from Abilene to Alberquerque, random victims, mostly women, throwing in a bit of torture as variation....

Eventually they were cornered in a motel somewhere in Bakersfield, and carted off to Oklahoma prison where they began their 'tour of duty' so to speak. They , apparently, howled like wolves before they were executed.

 

[NJSleuth91]

So, I have a question for the people who meet any or all of the above criteria:

a) are disgusted by the idea of these guys getting any more media publicity or any more information being released about them,

b) agree with the "No Notoriety" campaign that increased publicity for killers and discussion of their crimes leads to copycat killings,

c) think that absolutely nothing could have been done to prevent this spree, and these guys were just psychopaths who were destined to be killers from birth,

What is your motivation for continuing to post on here about this case? I am genuinely curious.

We learned a harsh lesson with that. Releasing those videos was a major mistake that we cannot undo.

Again, the Basement Tapes were never released.

 

[DarkSkink]

Since young men have been committing this kind of outrage for decades, .. why hasn't society learned already?

And again, I ask, who is keeping whom ignorant?

Mass killing has been going on for centuries. The reasons may have changed, but the desire to kill lots of people for a self serving reason is as old as man.

 

[katydid23]

Again, the Basement Tapes were never released.

Called the Basement Tapes because each was filmed in a basement family room in the Harris house. The families of the victims did not want the tapes to be released, but Time magazine was given access to them, albeit without the families' okay.Apr 19, 2019

The Columbine Tapes
The Columbine Tapes
In five secret videos they recorded before the massacre, the killers reveal their hatreds--and their lust for fame
Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold: The Basement Tapes | Heavy.com

https://heavy.com › news › 2019/04 › eric-harris-dylan-klebold-the-basemen...
https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/columbine_basement_tapes_1.0.pdf

Transcript of the Columbine “Basement Tapes”

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold made several videotapes of themselves talking about their up- coming attack. These have not been made public in full, but parts of them have been released. The following are transcripts of the publicly available passages. Bracketed text is in the original. Some minor misprints have been corrected.

 

[Trooper]

Mass killing has been going on for centuries. The reasons may have changed, but the desire to kill lots of people for a self serving reason is as old as man.

that doesn't address the claim you make...… Why hasn't any thing been learned after all this time ?

and who is keeping whom ignorant about these matters ?


these are claims you keep making, without addressing the questions that naturally arise from such peculiar claims.

 

[NJSleuth91]

@katydid23

The "Hitmen for Hire" video is not part of the Basement Tapes. That is a (very awkward and cringy, IMO) class project they did for school (which has a ton of red flags in hindsight, of course...but back in the late 90s I don't think teachers knew about these warning signs). There's also about 90 minutes of various other random videos and comedy sketches they did on Youtube, which were not related to the murders (these guys were actually into vlogging years before Youtube existed...interesting).