CASCU Analysis of Crime

[Ames]

right on,brand new,Wed.,and their dna would not be on it.And since she was wiped down,I suspect no dna was the most important issue..which again leads back to a sex crime commited against JB,IMO.
yes,I think Patsy got them,I think she gathered all the items,and that's why her fibers are on the ligature and tape.I suspect the panties were still in the package when she handed them to JR,and thus,her lack of fibers on them.And I think JR put them on her,as his fiber evidence shows.And he hid the rest of the package in his bag of golf clubs,IMO,along with perhaps a few other items.
I suspect JR was a lot more involved in it anyone might have ever imagined.Esp. given the fact he took a shower and changed clothes,and Patsy didn't.


lol,really ! I suspect JR told her what all to get...inc. NEW,wednesday panties....and that was all she could find.Esp. NEW ones.It had to do.

We are talking about this same thing over at FFJ, right now. I posted that I believe that the golf bag, holds the size 6 panties that JB wore to the White's that night, and supposedly went to bed in.....the package of size 12 bloomies, the cord and the tape. I believe that all of the evidence was hidden in that bag...and my guess is that if that bag had of been searched...these things would have been found. I betcha that none of the things that Pammy carted out was not given even a second look....remember. she was going in to gather "funeral clothes"... AND...they were told to treat the Ramsey's as VICTIMS. I bet it never even crossed their little keystone cop minds...to search that golf bag.

 

[JMO8778]

We are talking about this same thing over at FFJ, right now. I posted that I believe that the golf bag, holds the size 6 panties that JB wore to the White's that night, and supposedly went to bed in.....the package of size 12 bloomies, the cord and the tape. I believe that all of the evidence was hidden in that bag...and my guess is that if that bag had of been searched...these things would have been found. I betcha that none of the things that Pammy carted out was not given even a second look....remember. she was going in to gather "funeral clothes"... AND...they were told to treat the Ramsey's as VICTIMS. I bet it never even crossed their little keystone cop minds...to search that golf bag.

right on..and that 'treat them as victims,not as suspects', right off the bat is a rat to be smelled....I think JR made a few phone calls and someone knew something was up........

 

[Ames]

right on..and that 'treat them as victims,not as suspects', right off the bat is a rat to be smelled....I think JR made a few phone calls and someone knew something was up........

I agree! And in Patsy's 98 interview...and I can dig this up if needed...she says that John went to check on Burke, and then she remembered him being at the phone. WELL..of course he was at the phone...how else was he going to call his lawyers and such!! IMO...when he supposedly was "checking on Burke"....in reality he was making phone calls....

 

[coloradokares]

right on..and that 'treat them as victims,not as suspects', right off the bat is a rat to be smelled....I think JR made a few phone calls and someone knew something was up........

I smell the RAT the "FAT CAT" and the cheese !!

 

[UKGuy]

Or Patsy could have said..."John go and grab a pair of panties out of that size 12 pack, that's kept in our bedroom....they are the only ones that aren't stained".


And when I misunderstood what you had written..this is the quote by you that I was referring to..

POSTED BY UKGUY

"Since John's fibers are on those size-12's I would suggest it was John who redressed JonBenet in them, only a man would reckon the size-12's were the same as the size-6's, assuming they both had Wednesday stamped on them?"

That sounded like to me, that you were suggesting here, that the size 6's and size 12's were kept in the same place...and that John grabbed the 12's, because, being a man, he didn't know the difference.

Ames,

No not at all, you are confabulating the appearance with the location, as you have already conceded they may have been located anywhere in the house, so I reckon John just grabbed the closest Wednesday pair that matched what she was already wearing and redressed her in those.


.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

No not at all, you are confabulating the appearance with the location, as you have already conceded they may have been located anywhere in the house, so I reckon John just grabbed the closest Wednesday pair that matched what she was already wearing and redressed her in those.


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Yeah, they could have been placed anywhere in the house. But, I don't believe that John would have known where they were located...unless, of course...Patsy told him where to find them, or she went and got them and handed them to him herself.

 

[JMO8778]

I smell the RAT the "FAT CAT" and the cheese !!

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[UKGuy]

could be,but suppose he overruled her on that...and said..I don't care what size they are...they MUST say WED. on them ! (Or,how about..they MUST be new!) ..I mean,someone was in panic mode.
And yes,they were NEW.Was that somehow important to the stager?? As in....new=none of their dna in her crotch area.IF indeed it is a sex crime...that would be important to the stager !! correct???

JMO8778,

Contrary to your suggestion I do not think they were in panic mode, I reckon that had passed, they were now in reflection mode, and there was some ceo strategising being implemented.

As in....new=none of their dna in her crotch area.IF indeed it is a sex crime...that would be important to the stager !! correct???

Thats the general idea or strategy, remove the evidence and offer an alternative staging?


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[UKGuy]

Yeah, they could have been placed anywhere in the house. But, I don't believe that John would have known where they were located...unless, of course...Patsy told him where to find them, or she went and got them and handed them to him herself.

Ames,

What you believe and what can be known may be separate matters?

.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Contrary to your suggestion I do not think they were in panic mode, I reckon that had passed, they were now in reflection mode, and there was some ceo strategising being implemented.

ok,desperation mode then..putting size 12 underwear on a child who wears size 6 is beyond a stretch of the imagination.

Thats the general idea or strategy, remove the evidence and offer an alternative staging?


.

it was alternative alright...they could have left her underwear off,but I suspect the offender was afraid to do that,as if he was afraid doing so would somehow point straight to him?? so he finds underwear twice her size,that somehow being less important than the fact it is new and says Wed. on it?

 

[Ames]

Ames,

What you believe and what can be known may be separate matters?

.

True....that goes for everybody's opinion on this board. We weren't there..so we don't know. OF course...its all just my opinion....but....I just don't believe...and others on this board do not believe..that John would have known where to find those size 12 undies....that's just something that a man would not know....UNLESS Patsy told him, or went and got the pack for him.

 

[Ames]

ok,desperation mode then..putting size 12 underwear on a child who wears size 6 is beyond a stretch of the imagination.


it was alternative alright...they could have left her underwear off,but I suspect the offender was afraid to do that,as if he was afraid doing so would somehow point straight to him?? so he finds underwear twice her size,that somehow being less important than the fact it is new and says Wed. on it?

I agree. The main thing was that they were free of DNA and stains, and had WEDS. written on them....the size...as they say....doesn't matter. And I believe that it HAD to have WEDS. on it...because she had worn the size 6 WEds panties to the Whites....and SOMEBODY may have wiped her and seen them. I am sure that they were so panicky that they didn't stop to think that if someone had of wiped her, they may have noticed that the panties fit her...being a size 6...and not a size 12. Then again, they probably thought that if somebody wiped her, that they may not have even NOTICED the size panties that she had on. When I used to work in a daycare, and had to wipe butts...the kid would call me in after they finished, with the pants and panties already pulled down.....I never really even saw the panties, because they were inside the pants. If I did happen to see them, I could see the design...but, had no idea what the size was. When I finished, I left...and they pulled up their pants and panties/underwear by themself. So, it is very possible that if somebody wiped her...they saw the WEDS....and the design...but, didn't pay attention to the size. How would a person know the size anyway...unless they looked at the tag?

 

[UKGuy]

ok,desperation mode then..putting size 12 underwear on a child who wears size 6 is beyond a stretch of the imagination.


it was alternative alright...they could have left her underwear off,but I suspect the offender was afraid to do that,as if he was afraid doing so would somehow point straight to him?? so he finds underwear twice her size,that somehow being less important than the fact it is new and says Wed. on it?

JMO8778,

Kind of, it looks similar to what he just removed?

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[Ames]

JMO8778,

Kind of, it looks similar to what he just removed?

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Makes you wonder what they would have done, if they hadn't of had that extra pack of Days of the Week panties, doesn't it?

UK..I read in one of your posts that you said that the size 12 panties could have been bought for pageant purposes....what did you mean by that. I posted that my mom...(she passed away ten years ago)...used to put large panties over her head...LOL When she was getting ready for church, she would do her makeup, put rollers in her hair, and then place the panties over her head...and face...to keep the rollers/curlers in her hair from getting caught on the clothing, and possibly being pulled out...and it covered her face, to keep makeup from getting on her dress. Do you possibly think that this is the reason that Patsy had bought the size 12 bloomies for JB?? Sounds strange ....I know...but....hey, it worked.

 

[JMO8778]

we'll never know for sure about the underwear,but considering they could have just left it off of her...IF it was staged to be a sexual attack...says to me that it was no longer staged to be a sexual attack...someone changed their mind about that...and I think it was b/c she was no longer going to be placed outside..so that scenerio was dropped,so JR wouldn't get the blame for it,at least not right away.He wanted to get away bf the autopsy was to be performed,IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

The size 12s may not have been a mistake that PR was unaware of- IF the panties HAD to say "Wednesday". Because I think the R's worked as a team that night, whether JR knew where the panties were kept or not, PR was there to tell him if needed.
I've always thought there were several pieces of evidence in that golf bag. The duct tape, the nylon cord, the panties, the missing paint brush piece (which even an amateur would know had DNA on it- assuming the missing paint brush piece was not left inside JBR).

Did I read somewhere that LE tested the fireplaces for evidence that may have been burned? I don't remember.

I have doubts just how thorough the house search was. It was turned back over to the Rs pretty quickly. And Aunt P had unrestricted access as well. I am sure NO one checked the items she retrieved. I don't think LE even accompanied her while she was in the house. I read she was driven to the home in a police car, given a LE jacket to wear, and that the officer waited in the car while Aunt P made several trips in and carried out bags and bags of stuff. The police car was stuffed to overflowing. This sounds like a bit more than "funeral clothes".

 

[DeeDee249]

I honestly feel the Rs never thought either the too-big panties OR the bowl of pineapple/spoon/tea bag in water glass would EVER be made an issue of. They just didn't realize LE would think anything of it. They never thought anyone would pay attention to whether the underwear JBR was wearing when she died fit her, nor did they think LE would even realize they were not her right size.
And you can bet that the Rs NEVER though pineapple would be found still in her digestive tract. They just never gave it a thought. I doubt any killer (whether deliberate murder or accidental death) thinks about what the last thing his victim ate and whether it would still be identifiable if an autopsy was done.
While many killers are savvy about DNA and such (wiping the body, wiping the flashlight AND batteries, possibly using latex gloves, NO fingerprints on the tape pulled from her mouth, even though JR SAYS he pulled it off and FW claims to have picked it up and dropped it back on the blanket) I really do not think many killers think about what will be found in the digestive tract and how that impacts estimated time of death.
I think when that pineapple in JBR's small intestine was identified, the Rs were so shocked that they had to distance themselves as far as possible from it. There is NOTHING unusual about giving your child a late night snack of pineapple UNLESS she dies about 2 hours later. That's the only reason to deny you gave it to her, and even deny that you own the BOWL. That bowl was clearly shown on the R table at their party on the 23rd. And BR identified the bowl as belonging to the house when he was questioned. Of all the big things that make me suspect the Rs, it's the little things like this that convince me they are guilty.

 

[Ames]

we'll never know for sure about the underwear,but considering they could have just left it off of her...IF it was staged to be a sexual attack...says to me that it was no longer staged to be a sexual attack...someone changed their mind about that...and I think it was b/c she was no longer going to be placed outside..so that scenerio was dropped,so JR wouldn't get the blame for it,at least not right away.He wanted to get away bf the autopsy was to be performed,IMO.

ITA....that's why they wanted their passports. Who in the world thinks of passports, baby teeth, and golf clubs...(what a weird combination)...right after their daughter has been found murdered in the home. It makes no sense...UNLESS....the passports were going to be used to get the heck outta the country, the baby teeth are momentos...and the golf club bag...well, it contained the evidence. I believe ...as you do...that someone changed their mind about the sexual attack aspect of the crime. Why else would she have been wiped down and re-dressed?

 

[Ames]

The size 12s may not have been a mistake that PR was unaware of- IF the panties HAD to say "Wednesday". Because I think the R's worked as a team that night, whether JR knew where the panties were kept or not, PR was there to tell him if needed.
I've always thought there were several pieces of evidence in that golf bag. The duct tape, the nylon cord, the panties, the missing paint brush piece (which even an amateur would know had DNA on it- assuming the missing paint brush piece was not left inside JBR).

Did I read somewhere that LE tested the fireplaces for evidence that may have been burned? I don't remember.

I have doubts just how thorough the house search was. It was turned back over to the Rs pretty quickly. And Aunt P had unrestricted access as well. I am sure NO one checked the items she retrieved. I don't think LE even accompanied her while she was in the house. I read she was driven to the home in a police car, given a LE jacket to wear, and that the officer waited in the car while Aunt P made several trips in and carried out bags and bags of stuff. The police car was stuffed to overflowing. This sounds like a bit more than "funeral clothes".

I agree...it sounds like ALOT more than "funeral clothes"..to me. The Rams had money....they could have bought NEW clothes for the funeral. You think that Patsy had that little Jackie Kennedy Onasis hat with the black veil, just lying around the house??? I don't THINK so....anyway, the bit about retrieving "funeral clothes"...was all just a ruse...Its very apparent.

 

[Ames]

I honestly feel the Rs never thought either the too-big panties OR the bowl of pineapple/spoon/tea bag in water glass would EVER be made an issue of. They just didn't realize LE would think anything of it. They never thought anyone would pay attention to whether the underwear JBR was wearing when she died fit her, nor did they think LE would even realize they were not her right size.
And you can bet that the Rs NEVER though pineapple would be found still in her digestive tract. They just never gave it a thought. I doubt any killer (whether deliberate murder or accidental death) thinks about what the last thing his victim ate and whether it would still be identifiable if an autopsy was done.
While many killers are savvy about DNA and such (wiping the body, wiping the flashlight AND batteries, possibly using latex gloves, NO fingerprints on the tape pulled from her mouth, even though JR SAYS he pulled it off and FW claims to have picked it up and dropped it back on the blanket) I really do not think many killers think about what will be found in the digestive tract and how that impacts estimated time of death.
I think when that pineapple in JBR's small intestine was identified, the Rs were so shocked that they had to distance themselves as far as possible from it. There is NOTHING unusual about giving your child a late night snack of pineapple UNLESS she dies about 2 hours later. That's the only reason to deny you gave it to her, and even deny that you own the BOWL. That bowl was clearly shown on the R table at their party on the 23rd. And BR identified the bowl as belonging to the house when he was questioned. Of all the big things that make me suspect the Rs, it's the little things like this that convince me they are guilty.

I am sure that the pineapple that she ate was the absolute last thing on their minds....or rather ....not on their minds at all. All they knew that night...was that JB ...they thought...was dead, when Patsy flung her into the side of the tub, or the sink, and the staging began to keep their butts out of jail. The size of her panties...and the pineapple...or the fact that the RN was written inside of the home, on their pad, and with their sharpie pen....didn't even occur to them as unusual. They just knew that they had a job to do...and they had to do it FAST! I believe that they just didn't really think at all that night....they were just desperate.