CASCU Analysis of Crime

[UKGuy]

I still think the size 12s could have come from a gift that PR unwrapped in the basement. The rest of the pack WAS turned in to LE- many months later. So obviously it did exist- it WAS in the house that night. If the new pack was unwrapped that night in order to put the Wednesday pair on JBR, the remaining 6 pairs could have been hidden anywhere- that famous golf bag (which is seen in crime scene photos as RIGHT OUTSIDE the wineceller door could have held many missing clues from that night- a roll of tape, the remaining nylon cord, the panties, the paintbrush...he was awfully anxious to get that bag. And remember- LE may have searched the house, but not that thoroughly IMO. Look how "thoroughly" they searched before she was found. They couldn't even look UP to see wooden latch on a door. (Officer French described the door as "stuck". It wasn't "stuck". It was latched. All he had to do is look at the door when it wouldn't open and he'd have seen that latch and opened the door...and we wouldn't be posting here today 10 years later. So the fact that a search didn't turn up the rest of the size 12s doesn't surprise me.
JBR's panties were not kept in the usual place- they were not kept in her bedroom drawers, but in drawers in her bathroom. Most people keep underwear in their bedroom, but in the R home they kept it in their bathrooms. (PR mentions in an inverview that her own was kept in drawer in her bath/dressing area).
NO intruder could have known that. No one but her parents and the housekeeper knew where JBR kept her panties.

DeeDee249,
BPD took away all the contents of JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer, there were no size-12's discovered.

This was a flaw in the staging, size-12 underwear found on JonBenet, none discovered in the house.

Later the Ramsey's returned a set of size-12's saying they had just been found in some packing crate, duh!

This tells you they know how relevant they were even if the BPD missed them first time round?

(PR mentions in an inverview that her own was kept in drawer in her bath/dressing area).

Most likely this is where the size-12's were stored or close by, also it was Patsy who stated the size-12's were kept in JonBenet's bedroom, all her statements cannot be substantiated.

Additionally from memory the size-12's were the same as JonBenet's size-6's, when they were being purchased one was a consequence of the other, so the suggestion that JonBenet wanted the size-12's does not stack up!

NO intruder could have known that. No one but her parents and the housekeeper knew where JBR kept her panties.

More salient is who knew where the size-12's were kept, this would malke a good line to a jury?

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[UKGuy]

I agree...it would be interesting. I still am not following you here....so, you are saying that its rubbish that Patsy had size 12 underwear laying around somewhere? If so, then where did the pair that JB was wearing come from? The pack had to have been SOMEWHERE in that house. Whether it be Patsy's bedroom, the bathroom, JAR's bedroom, JAR's bathroom...under the bed...they had to have been kept somewhere, for Patsy...OR JOHN...to have been able to pull one from the pack to place on her during the clean up and re-dressing. I am sorry...I just don't see what you are trying to get at. Could you maybe explain it a little better. I know that JB did not place those underwear on herself....one of her parents did it, but as I have said before...they had to have come from somewhere in that house.

Ames,

If you read Patsy's interview statements she will tell you she purchased the size-12's from bloomingdales intended as a gift. The rest of what she says is hearsay and cannot be verified. The basement was turned over and no remaining size-12's were discovered, and I assume no empty gift wrapping with a gift tag for Patsy's niece was found either, otherwise Patsy's statement of intention about purchasing them and who they were intended for can be married up with the empty wrapping?

The origin of the size-12's is not as important as the hole they create in the staging, we know where they came from that is not in dispute, they were obviously stored somewhere in the house.

The real question is why would anyone dress JonBenet in size-12's, when their origin was in no doubt, and there were perfectly acceptable replacements in her bathroom drawer? If JonBenet had been redressed in a clean pair of size-6's we would more than likely be none the wiser!

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[Ames]

DeeDee249,
BPD took away all the contents of JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer, there were no size-12's discovered.

This was a flaw in the staging, size-12 underwear found on JonBenet, none discovered in the house.

Later the Ramsey's returned a set of size-12's saying they had just been found in some packing crate, duh!

This tells you they know how relevant they were even if the BPD missed them first time round?


Most likely this is where the size-12's were stored or close by, also it was Patsy who stated the size-12's were kept in JonBenet's bedroom, all her statements cannot be substantiated.

Additionally from memory the size-12's were the same as JonBenet's size-6's, when they were being purchased one was a consequence of the other, so the suggestion that JonBenet wanted the size-12's does not stack up!


More salient is who knew where the size-12's were kept, this would malke a good line to a jury?

.

Exactly...this is what I have been saying all along. I think that I misunderstood what you were trying to say...I thought that you were saying that you didn't think that she was actually found wearing size 12 panties. Sorry...my mistake.

Yes, this would make a good line to a jury...as I stated in a previous post....no matter WHERE the size 12 panties were kept....in the bathroom, in the bedroom...in JAR's bathroom or bedroom, under the bed, under the kitchen sink, in the laundry room, in the garage....or on top of the house....there is NO WAY an intruder would have known where they were. And if they had of been wrapped...and down in the basement with the other presents....then HOW would an intruder know what was in the package....unless he had x-ray vision...he wouldn't have known. SOOOO...that leaves the parents. IMO....John wouldn't have known where the large panties were kept, because ....welll....he is a man...and they just don't know these things. Patsy would have been the one to have put them where they were, so she would have either been the one to get them, or she told John where they were located.

My question to you.....since I finally realize what you were trying to say after a page of posts...LOL Sorry...it just takes me awhile sometime.
Okay, Patsy says that she bought JB and her niece (or cousin)....the same kind of panties...only JB's was a 6 and the other's were a 12. She says that JB didn't want to give them away, because she liked hers so much, she wanted to keep the size 12's, too, so that she could wear them when she was older. I agree...that they probably were kept out separately....I think, to keep JB from accidently opening them, and wearing them...(because she couldn't read). You say that JB keeping the panties to wear later is rubbish....and that Patsy lied (yes, she was a liar). SOOOO....my question is....why would they have size 12 panties just lying around the house, if JB didn't want to keep them? Do you think that maybe she had them put up somewhere, to give to the other girl later? I don't believe that she ever indended to give them as a Christmas present....I mean, WHO gives panties as a Christmas gift, anyway? I would be mad, if someone gave me a pack of panties for any occasion. LOL Bottom line....again.....why were the size 12 panties still in the house, if JB didn't decide that she wanted them? Why hadn't Patsy already given them to the person that she bought them for?

 

[Ames]

Ames,

If you read Patsy's interview statements she will tell you she purchased the size-12's from bloomingdales intended as a gift. The rest of what she says is hearsay and cannot be verified. The basement was turned over and no remaining size-12's were discovered, and I assume no empty gift wrapping with a gift tag for Patsy's niece was found either, otherwise Patsy's statement of intention about purchasing them and who they were intended for can be married up with the empty wrapping?

The origin of the size-12's is not as important as the hole they create in the staging, we know where they came from that is not in dispute, they were obviously stored somewhere in the house.

The real question is why would anyone dress JonBenet in size-12's, when their origin was in no doubt, and there were perfectly acceptable replacements in her bathroom drawer? If JonBenet had been redressed in a clean pair of size-6's we would more than likely be none the wiser!

.

I agree. The ONLY thing that I can think of...is if they were afraid that JB had asked someone to wipe her at the White's party. They either thought this, or JB may have told them...."I had to go to the bathroom, and I asked so and so to wipe me". OR....one of the people at the party ....Priscilla for example...may have told Patsy..."JonBenet used the bathroom and she asked me to wipe her, so you might want to re-check her to make sure she is clean".....or something like that. That's the only explanation that I can think of.

 

[rashomon]

Later the Ramsey's returned a set of size-12's saying they had just been found in some packing crate, duh!

So this set were the size-12's minus the Wednesday underpants in which JBs body was dressed?

 

[Ames]

So this set were the size-12's minus the Wednesday underpants in which JBs body was dressed?

Good question! And they were found in a packing crate? First of all..you KNOW they knew where those panties were all along...and second of all...when Patsy or John was packing stuff up, and ran across those size 12 panties....it looks like a lightbulb would have came on in their head...and they would have said..."Gee....JB was wearing a pair of size 12 panties, when her body was found....Hmmmmm....maybe, we should turn these over to investigators". NOOOO....not the Ramsey's...they are unlike NORMAL parents....they just toss them in a packing crate, and move on with their lives. The heck with that "little" piece of evidence. They don't need to find out who killed their daughter, because they already knew....so why should they turn in that "little" piece of evidence. On the other hand, if that had of been MY child...I would have gone straight to the pack of panties, and turned them in....pronto. And if I couldn't find them, and I was moving...and ran across them....I would have given them to investigators right away, not throw them in a packing crate...and took them with me. GEESH!

 

[UKGuy]

So this set were the size-12's minus the Wednesday underpants in which JBs body was dressed?

rashomon,

I guess so, otherwise we would have heard about it by now, also not much point in handing back an unopened pack of seven is there?

So were these the originals or another purchase from bloomingdales?

The real question is why size-12's and not size-6's, what made the killer risk messing their staging up with a household item only the residents knew existed?

Just to reiterate:

The size-12's represent a hole in the staging because not only was their existence known more or less to some residents, but the Ramsey's returned a pack at a later date, demonstrating they knew how relevant they were. e.g. In court the riposte would be What pedophile brings clean oversized size-12 underwear to redress his victim?


Since John's fibers are on those size-12's I would suggest it was John who redressed JonBenet in them, only a man would reckon the size-12's were the same as the size-6's, assuming they both had Wednesday stamped on them?

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[UKGuy]

Exactly...this is what I have been saying all along. I think that I misunderstood what you were trying to say...I thought that you were saying that you didn't think that she was actually found wearing size 12 panties. Sorry...my mistake.

Yes, this would make a good line to a jury...as I stated in a previous post....no matter WHERE the size 12 panties were kept....in the bathroom, in the bedroom...in JAR's bathroom or bedroom, under the bed, under the kitchen sink, in the laundry room, in the garage....or on top of the house....there is NO WAY an intruder would have known where they were. And if they had of been wrapped...and down in the basement with the other presents....then HOW would an intruder know what was in the package....unless he had x-ray vision...he wouldn't have known. SOOOO...that leaves the parents. IMO....John wouldn't have known where the large panties were kept, because ....welll....he is a man...and they just don't know these things. Patsy would have been the one to have put them where they were, so she would have either been the one to get them, or she told John where they were located.

My question to you.....since I finally realize what you were trying to say after a page of posts...LOL Sorry...it just takes me awhile sometime.
Okay, Patsy says that she bought JB and her niece (or cousin)....the same kind of panties...only JB's was a 6 and the other's were a 12. She says that JB didn't want to give them away, because she liked hers so much, she wanted to keep the size 12's, too, so that she could wear them when she was older. I agree...that they probably were kept out separately....I think, to keep JB from accidently opening them, and wearing them...(because she couldn't read). You say that JB keeping the panties to wear later is rubbish....and that Patsy lied (yes, she was a liar). SOOOO....my question is....why would they have size 12 panties just lying around the house, if JB didn't want to keep them? Do you think that maybe she had them put up somewhere, to give to the other girl later? I don't believe that she ever indended to give them as a Christmas present....I mean, WHO gives panties as a Christmas gift, anyway? I would be mad, if someone gave me a pack of panties for any occasion. LOL Bottom line....again.....why were the size 12 panties still in the house, if JB didn't decide that she wanted them? Why hadn't Patsy already given them to the person that she bought them for?

Ames,
Yes underwear from the wife of a millionaire is a strange gift, something more appropriate was called for, e.g. a nice top, or blouse?

Which suggests that the size-12's may have been intended for another use?


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[JMO8778]

Ames,
Yes underwear from the wife of a millionaire is a strange gift, something more appropriate was called for, e.g. a nice top, or blouse?

Which suggests that the size-12's may have been intended for another use?


.

Like for what? The only think I can think of is if she was going to use them over a pull-up on JB.It's not necessary though,and that size would likely still be too big,even over a pull up.
I don't think it's so unusual a gift,not everyone can shop at Bloomingdale's,and if they said Bloomies on the back,it would be a cute gift.(But maybe that's just me,lol).I don't think JB had asked to keep them though.That sounds like just another one of Patsy's excuses...so maybe they were in a box to be given away?But she denies this,excuse being 'JB wanted them'(?)

 

[UKGuy]

Like for what? The only think I can think of is if she was going to use them over a pull-up on JB.It's not necessary though,and that size would likely still be too big,even over a pull up.
I don't think it's so unusual a gift,not everyone can shop at Bloomingdale's,and if they said Bloomies on the back,it would be a cute gift.(But maybe that's just me,lol).I don't think JB had asked to keep them though.That sounds like just another one of Patsy's excuses...so maybe they were in a box to be given away?But she denies this,excuse being 'JB wanted them'(?)

JMO8778,

Those size-12's were never intended for JonBenet else no invented reason about JonBenet wanting to keep them need have been produced?

Underwear for JonBenet and underwear for an obscure niece? Well anything is possible, and it might be a reflection of Patsy's values that she reckons underwear is a better gift than say a top or a blouse, all which can also have the bloomingdales tag.

Those size-12's were either the gift intended as described, or were purchased for some other reason. My thoughts turn to the pageants here?


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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Those size-12's were never intended for JonBenet else no invented reason about JonBenet wanting to keep them need have been produced?

Underwear for JonBenet and underwear for an obscure niece? Well anything is possible, and it might be a reflection of Patsy's values that she reckons underwear is a better gift than say a top or a blouse, all which can also have the bloomingdales tag.

Those size-12's were either the gift intended as described, or were purchased for some other reason. My thoughts turn to the pageants here?


.

what would she do w/ the underwear in the pageants? I'm confused...

 

[DeeDee249]

But, where..in your opinion...were the size 12's kept....its a known fact that she was wearing a size 12 pair of bloomies, when she actually wore a 6. She was found wearing these.....so, where in the house, did they keep the pack?? Of course there was not intruder....so, these panties were "found" easily, because Patsy knew where they were kept.

I recall one of PR's interviews where she was being shown photos of various rooms in the home, and LE was discussing JBR's bedroom, her bathroom, and the laundry area just outside. She was being asked about JBR's underwear and the size 12's specifically and she mentioned the NY shopping trip where both sets were purchased at Bloomingdale's. This was the interview where she told LE that JBR opened the second packs for some reason so PR let her keep them. She also said all JBR's underwear was kept in the drawers in JBR's bathroom so she could help herself to whatever was in there.
Now this is just a far-out-in-left field thought...remember how your mother always told you to be sure you wore clean underwear in case you were in an accident? Well, if ALL JBR's own panties were stained from her soiling (and this kind of stain will likely remain even after laundering unless they are bleached, and that can be done only with whites) maybe PR didn't want her to be found with the stained undies and changed her to the only clean, unstained panties available- the unworn size 12s.

 

[JMO8778]

I recall one of PR's interviews where she was being shown photos of various rooms in the home, and LE was discussing JBR's bedroom, her bathroom, and the laundry area just outside. She was being asked about JBR's underwear and the size 12's specifically and she mentioned the NY shopping trip where both sets were purchased at Bloomingdale's. This was the interview where she told LE that JBR opened the second packs for some reason so PR let her keep them. She also said all JBR's underwear was kept in the drawers in JBR's bathroom so she could help herself to whatever was in there.
Now this is just a far-out-in-left field thought...remember how your mother always told you to be sure you wore clean underwear in case you were in an accident? Well, if ALL JBR's own panties were stained from her soiling (and this kind of stain will likely remain even after laundering unless they are bleached, and that can be done only with whites) maybe PR didn't want her to be found with the stained undies and changed her to the only clean, unstained panties available- the unworn size 12s.

good thought,could have been an embarrassment issue??
but then she was also wiped off after a staged injury,so it's kind of hard to say(?)

 

[DeeDee249]

And then, too, there is the matter of the wiped down pubic and thigh area. We know JBR bled. Digital penetration alone would not cause that amount of bleeding. Breaking the hymen wouldn't cause enough bleeding to make wiping of her thighs necessary. And her hyman was "eroded", according to the autopsy, so it doesn't sound like it was actually broken, more like rubbed away over time. But stabbing with a broken paintbrush would. And her panties were probably removed or pulled down for any of the sexual tampering. So if the original size 6 panties HAD to be changed because they were bloody, I am thinking an unconscious (from the head blow) JBR was redressed in the size 6s, bleeding occurred, staining the panties, and the size 12s were substituted, BEFORE the long john bottoms were put back on. They had NO blood stains, as far as I have read, just urine stains. Because the long johns AND the size 12's were urine stained, I think the urine was from a post mortem release. The few drops of blood that were found on the inside of the crotch of the size 12s were never seen by the stagers, and were probably some drops that oozed after her death but before the blood had coagulated. Her heart need not have been pumping for those few drops to ooze out.

 

[JMO8778]

And then, too, there is the matter of the wiped down pubic and thigh area. We know JBR bled. Digital penetration alone would not cause that amount of bleeding. Breaking the hymen wouldn't cause enough bleeding to make wiping of her thighs necessary. And her hyman was "eroded", according to the autopsy, so it doesn't sound like it was actually broken, more like rubbed away over time. But stabbing with a broken paintbrush would. And her panties were probably removed or pulled down for any of the sexual tampering. So if the original size 6 panties HAD to be changed because they were bloody, I am thinking an unconscious (from the head blow) JBR was redressed in the size 6s, bleeding occurred, staining the panties, and the size 12s were substituted, BEFORE the long john bottoms were put back on. They had NO blood stains, as far as I have read, just urine stains. Because the long johns AND the size 12's were urine stained, I think the urine was from a post mortem release. The few drops of blood that were found on the inside of the crotch of the size 12s were never seen by the stagers, and were probably some drops that oozed after her death but before the blood had coagulated. Her heart need not have been pumping for those few drops to ooze out.

yes,and the new pair said Wed. on them...so it seems this was important to the stager..a clean,new,fresh unstained Wed. pair...wiping down,redressing and covering w/ the blanket.I get the idea there was something to hide of a sexual nature,that occured b/f the staged injury.

 

[UKGuy]

yes,and the new pair said Wed. on them...so it seems this was important to the stager..a clean,new,fresh unstained Wed. pair...wiping down,redressing and covering w/ the blanket.I get the idea there was something to hide of a sexual nature,that occured b/f the staged injury.

JMO8778,

I get the idea there was something to hide of a sexual nature,that occured b/f the staged injury.

Apparently so, else why go to such extreme lengths to hide it? Any sexual injury fake or not could have been left in-situ but still hidden by her size-12's or size-6's her longjohns and blankets, result : just the same, on autopsy injury discovered?

This represents another staging mistake, since there was no compelling reason to hide any sexual assault since it could be blamed upon the intruder.

All the facts suggest JonBenet was being chronically molested, and that the night of her death was one of those occassions, these circumstances were hidden and removed from view by relocating and cleaning up JonBenet to make it appear she had simply been abducted from her bed, the forensic evidence tells you otherwise.


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I guess so, otherwise we would have heard about it by now, also not much point in handing back an unopened pack of seven is there?

So were these the originals or another purchase from bloomingdales?

The real question is why size-12's and not size-6's, what made the killer risk messing their staging up with a household item only the residents knew existed?

Just to reiterate:

The size-12's represent a hole in the staging because not only was their existence known more or less to some residents, but the Ramsey's returned a pack at a later date, demonstrating they knew how relevant they were. e.g. In court the riposte would be What pedophile brings clean oversized size-12 underwear to redress his victim?


Since John's fibers are on those size-12's I would suggest it was John who redressed JonBenet in them, only a man would reckon the size-12's were the same as the size-6's, assuming they both had Wednesday stamped on them?

IDIs often bring up the argument that surely the police would have discovered the remaining duct tape and cord in their thorough search of the house. No remaining duct tape and cord found in the household = the 'intruder' brought and took these items with him, they argue.
But as it seems, the police didn't even find the package of size 12-underwear in the Ramsey home. So much for 'thorough' search ...

 

[rashomon]

Those size-12's were either the gift intended as described, or were purchased for some other reason. My thoughts turn to the pageants here?

But what should JB have done at a pageant with size 12-underwear far too large for her?

 

[rashomon]

Now this is just a far-out-in-left field thought...remember how your mother always told you to be sure you wore clean underwear in case you were in an accident? Well, if ALL JBR's own panties were stained from her soiling (and this kind of stain will likely remain even after laundering unless they are bleached, and that can be done only with whites) maybe PR didn't want her to be found with the stained undies and changed her to the only clean, unstained panties available- the unworn size 12s.

Interesting explanation, DeeDee. Makes sense imo, since virtualy all size 6 underwear in her drawers, athough laundered, still had stains from previous soiling.

 

[Albert18]

Now this is just a far-out-in-left field thought...remember how your mother always told you to be sure you wore clean underwear in case you were in an accident? Well, if ALL JBR's own panties were stained from her soiling (and this kind of stain will likely remain even after laundering unless they are bleached, and that can be done only with whites) maybe PR didn't want her to be found with the stained undies and changed her to the only clean, unstained panties available- the unworn size 12s.

This is an interesting idea. Whatever the reason, I think it was just one of Patsy's bizzare decisions that night.

I do think Patsy would have been the only one who knew where those size 12's were located. Which presents a big problem having John involved with them.