Cause of Death and Time of Death *MERGED* (Warning: Contains Graphic Content!)

[Dr. Know?]

Hey, I admire all of you, been side tracked being in AZ with the shootings. Can anyone update me on the date that EB was in those area's per LE or facts whatever you might have. I'm very interested but too much is going on! TIA xoxoxo

 

[ynotdivein]

Hey, I admire all of you, been side tracked being in AZ with the shootings. Can anyone update me on the date that EB was in those area's per LE or facts whatever you might have. I'm very interested but too much is going on! TIA xoxoxo

Morning Dr. Know! :wave:

I am sorry and sickened by what happened in AZ. So senseless, and now we are hearing that there were so many warning signs in that young man's life.

The search warrants indicate that on Nov. 19, EB informed LE that "Zahra Baker died on September 24th 2010, and was disposed of the following day."

http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2011/0104/26368797.pdf

There's been much discussion about the fact that the 25th is also the date that the furniture store workers reported seeing Zahra, EB and another woman in their store. The store's security tapes were not recording that day; however, three employees agree that they saw Zahra then. There is speculation that the employees are off on the date (countered by the question of "how can 3 people all be wrong so consistently?"). IMO, I'm leaning toward the store staff being mistaken. LE reports that EB's phone records show her "pinging" at the disposal sites on the 25th.

Hope that helps!

 

[wenwe4]

Morning Dr. Know! :wave:

I am sorry and sickened by what happened in AZ. So senseless, and now we are hearing that there were so many warning signs in that young man's life.

The search warrants indicate that on Nov. 19, EB informed LE that "Zahra Baker died on September 24th 2010, and was disposed of the following day."

http://www.wsoctv.com/download/2011/0104/26368797.pdf

There's been much discussion about the fact that the 25th is also the date that the furniture store workers reported seeing Zahra, EB and another woman in their store. The store's security tapes were not recording that day; however, three employees agree that they saw Zahra then. There is speculation that the employees are off on the date (countered by the question of "how can 3 people all be wrong so consistently?"). IMO, I'm leaning toward the store staff being mistaken. LE reports that EB's phone records show her "pinging" at the disposal sites on the 25th.

Hope that helps!

I am so curious as to why the purchase of the new bed. Had Zahra been sick and vomited in her bed? (wet the bed, bled in her bed?) Was there pre-meditation for her death (ie: chainsaw massacre on IMVU?) which prompted the purchase of the new bed? The timing is uncanny. Also, if EB was pinging at the dump sites on the 25th, then she was dismembered and disposed of within 24 hours? That would explain no decomp smell in the home (that I have heard of), and a prompt turnaround from death to disposal. Could they have decided to do this after the IMVU game gave them the idea of dismemberment? I believe that having the head and torso may give some clues as to what may have happened to her both pre and post mortem. Was the weather pretty cool at nights and warm in the day during this time? (if anyone knows offhand). Did I read blood and tissue samples from the bedroom wall in addition to the bathroom drains?

 

[westsidefox64]

Does anyone besides me remember after the furniture store sighting LE asking if anyone had seen Zahra from a certain date forward? Im trying to find that date. Im thinking the store sighting date may be wrong and thought if I could find the other date LE asked for I would look and see if it was a saturday. TIA

 

[hmmmisee]

I'm new to this, so bear with me... If Zahra died of natural causes and was then dismembered, why would there still be blood splattering onto the walls? Wouldn't it have stopped flowing and have begun to pool? Were they watching her die? Waiting?

 

[hmmmisee]

Abstract:  In response to the unexpected paucity of blood/tissue spatter at the site where a body of an adult woman was dismembered by an electric chainsaw, we dismembered two large pig carcasses with a small electric chainsaw in a controlled environment. These experiments demonstrated first that a large carcass could be easily dismembered by a small electric chainsaw. When the chainsaw bar is held parallel to the ground the majority of the blood and tissue is deposited directly beneath the saw and bar and very little elsewhere. If the discharge chute of the saw however is not oriented directly at the ground, larger amounts of blood and tissue may be sprayed on lateral surfaces or deposited some distance from the chainsaw. The characteristic striations created on the surface of wood as it is cut by a chainsaw can also be found on bony surfaces cut by a chainsaw.


I can't get past this.

 

[ynotdivein]

:wagon: hmmmm....

Can you provide a link to the quote you shared above? Interesting information to be sure. Thanks for diving in!

 

[lauriej]

Does anyone besides me remember after the furniture store sighting LE asking if anyone had seen Zahra from a certain date forward? Im trying to find that date. Im thinking the store sighting date may be wrong and thought if I could find the other date LE asked for I would look and see if it was a saturday. TIA

october 20th Chief Adkins:

http://www.wsoctv.com/video/25453585/index.html
--begins 1:35---

Chief:

"although we had someone outside the family of Z, who has saw Z after,or/er on sept.25th ,we are still asking anyone outside the family who has seen Z after the 25th ,OR,we're expanding that, and anybody who has seen Z in the last month, since her being reported on october 9th to call LE."

"again, that timeline is SO crucial to our investigation".

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/zahra_baker_case/zahra_baker_questions/
------Q & A news14----

How long has Zahra been gone?

That seems to be one question even police cannot answer. October 20, Chief Tom Adkins again asked anyone who has seen Zahra or her parents from September 9 to October 9 to come forward and talk with them. Chief Adkins said they were getting "conflicting timelines" from family members and were seeking other people from the community to help build a timeline as to how long Zahra has been missing.

 

[hmmmisee]

:wagon: hmmmm....

Can you provide a link to the quote you shared above? Interesting information to be sure. Thanks for diving in!

It's an abstract, but may lead to something.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2009.01077.x/abstract

 

[tlcya]

welcome hmmmisee! Thank you for diving in and thanks for the link, extremely useful if as suspected something such as a chainsaw was used in the dismemberment.

 

[tlcya]

based on the limited internet research I've done on dismemberment, this guy appears to be an expert on the subject.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.feinc.net/ForensicExperts/SS/bio.htm

 

[Flakes]

I am wondering if details of the Herman Rockefeller case in Australia may have contributed in some way to aspects of the disposal of Zahra's body parts. I am not sure if you're all aware of this case, but here is a link to one article. There is a large amount of further material available on the internet. Being an Australian case, the person/s involved in Zahra's case may have been aware of the details.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/herman-rockefellers-secret-final-days/story-e6frf7jo-1225891251768

"With a $99 chainsaw bought from Bunnings, Mr Rockefeller's body was dismembered and then burnt in the backyard of a Glenroy junkyard on Australia Day..."

To sum it up: Herman was an upstanding family man with strong church and community service commitments. He was also a hugely successful businessman (estimates put his wealth at around AUD$400 million). At the same time he led a double life within swinging circles. Unfortunate circumstances led to a violent argument at a swinging couple's house, and he was knocked unconscious. The couple put him in the boot of their car, alive, and drove to a bushland destination to dispose of his body. Then decided against it. Meanwhile Herman died in the boot. When they returned to the city they panicked and decided to dismember his body with a chainsaw. Next they tried to incinerate the remains in the backyard of a housing commission house (government owned) that was used as a junkyard. Eventually they buried the final remains.

I understand the LE took samples of materials (cloth?? and other?) from the backyard fire at AB & EB's house. This would presumably contain evidence of human matter if any had been burned in the reported fire, or in a fire at an earlier time in that yard.

I am just wondering if perhaps certain parts of Zahra may have been burned while other parts buried. I understand EB has not stated this in anything we have seen.

I realise it is pretty gruesome. Hence I chose to put it in the thread with the "warning"!

Edit: also perhaps ... person/s may have tried to burn remains but discovered that the heat generated by an incinerator or fire was inadequate to burn human remains. The house fire that was reported may have been an attempt to cover that up. I'm sure forensics would know if the remains they have found had been burned at any time.

 

[Flakes]

hmmm not sure how that thumbs up symbol got there above my post!?!

 

[tlcya]

you must have inadvertantly had the thmbs up icon selected when typing your post. The icons are located just beneath the text box and the buttons for posting your comments.

If it bothers you you can select the edit button on your post and when in the edit screen scroll down past your text box and unselect that thumbs up icon.

 

[tlcya]

ty for posting about the case of Mr. Rockefeller. You are right, there do seem to be some possible parallels in this case and that one. I imagine that was a pretty shocking story and got a lot of coverage and would be the talk in Australia at the time.

 

[Flakes]

ty for posting about the case of Mr. Rockefeller. You are right, there do seem to be some possible parallels in this case and that one. I imagine that was a pretty shocking story and got a lot of coverage and would be the talk in Australia at the time.

Fixed the thumbs up Thanks.

Yes, the Rockefeller case was a shock as it was so brutal. And especially as this fine, upstanding gentleman's body was found in such obscene circumstances and in such a seedy part of the city. There was great confusion. Then eventually the swinging bit came out (not that swingers are all brutal murderers!) and the tale became as clear as mud. We don't see such sordid stuff here very often.

I agree certain parallels are certainly there between Zahra and Herman: backyard fire – missing person – dismemberment (by chainsaw?). But as I wonder, are there more, such as the burning of the body? I realise it's all just speculation.
(also see my edit in post above regarding possible coverup by the housefire)

 

[tlcya]

Something sure as heck seemed important (incriminating?) enough to warrant a backyard fire in the wee morning hours, that much is sure. And yes, fibers were removed by LE. I am wondering if it was the clothing worn during dismemberment. That kind of bloodstains are not likely to come out in the wash and perhaps they thought burning them was the best option.

 

[westsidefox64]

Something sure as heck seemed important (incriminating?) enough to warrant a backyard fire in the wee morning hours, that much is sure. And yes, fibers were removed by LE. I am wondering if it was the clothing worn during dismemberment. That kind of bloodstains are not likely to come out in the wash and perhaps they thought burning them was the best option.

ITA Back before this was in forum I pondered the meaning of the fire. The search warrant listed several things removed from the brush fire and Tahoe. I lost the link I had to the warrant so im going on memory here please bear with me.burnt samples were 1 pink jacket, a bowl of green vegi matter, a chinese takeout menu, and assorted drug pariphinalia. I think that was it. Im assuming the jacket was Zahras and I understand the drug things. Not the takeout menu unless it had blood or something on it.

What I dont understand is if EB is telling the truth about the 24th and 25th being the time of death and disposal why wait so long to start the fire to get rid of these items. This is one thing that makes me think the furniture store sighting may be right and EB is blowing hot air for some reason on the actual date. If she is lying about the time of death what does she hope to gain from it? I think I get more confused everyday with this case.
JMO

 

[lauriej]

ITA Back before this was in forum I pondered the meaning of the fire. The search warrant listed several things removed from the brush fire and Tahoe. I lost the link I had to the warrant so im going on memory here please bear with me.burnt samples were 1 pink jacket, a bowl of green vegi matter, a chinese takeout menu, and assorted drug pariphinalia. I think that was it. Im assuming the jacket was Zahras and I understand the drug things. Not the takeout menu unless it had blood or something on it.

What I dont understand is if EB is telling the truth about the 24th and 25th being the time of death and disposal why wait so long to start the fire to get rid of these items. This is one thing that makes me think the furniture store sighting may be right and EB is blowing hot air for some reason on the actual date. If she is lying about the time of death what does she hope to gain from it? I think I get more confused everyday with this case.
JMO

..items taken--warrant for house/and vehicles.

http://www.wbtv.com/global/link.asp?l=460807
---page 6 -----

10/10/10 search warrant executed: Items seized:

Duke Power bill, Numerous other papers with writings and phone numbers, assorted receipts, (3) passports with paperwork, (2) toothbrushes, hair brush, assorted ink pens, (2) lighters, (2) pillows, (1) sheet, (1) comforter, (2) gas cans, (4) burnt samples (from Tahoe and brush pile), (1) pink jacket, plastic bowl w/green vegg. matter, assorted drug paraphenalia, chines take-out menu, 1990 Burgandy Toyota Camry, latent lift, photos taken by me (CSI, L. A. Webb or Welch), 96 Chevy Tahoe.

The warrent indicates no one was home and a copy of the warrant was left in the premises, for the vehicle(s) and premises searched.

 

[hmmmisee]

What I dont understand is if EB is telling the truth about the 24th and 25th being the time of death and disposal why wait so long to start the fire to get rid of these items. This is one thing that makes me think the furniture store sighting may be right and EB is blowing hot air for some reason on the actual date. If she is lying about the time of death what does she hope to gain from it? I think I get more confused everyday with this case.
JMO

Like someone posted (not sure who), EB needs to contradict anything that can prove that Zahra wasn't on her deathbed. If she wasn't gravely ill, the question becomes, " how did she die?" The answer becomes murder. There's a much harsher penalty for 1st degree murder than dismembering and discarding a corpse (not sure of the names of the charges). IMO