CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

[al66pine]

.... Not sure where to post this as all of the WS threads on police shootings migrate to what power LE should have overall. Maybe this post belongs in all such threads, but to think of them as separate events seems no longer an option imo by the following.
Referendums on the subject on both sides of the 49th parallel?

sbm

Hey, how about starting a W/S poll where this could be discussed at length????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[al66pine]

"The autopsy performed on Jessica Hernandez says the 17-year-old had four gunshot wounds, suffering two wounds to the left side of her chest, as well as to her pelvis and right thigh."
"Two bullets were recovered from the teenager's body, according to the report released Friday by the City of Denver's Office of the Medical Examiner...."

"The autopsy, performed by Chief Medical Examiner James L. Caruso, also revealed that Hernandez had a blood-alcohol content of 0.047, a bit more than half the legal limit for an adult. The report also said she tested positive for cannabinoids.". bbm sbm

Denver Dist Atty's ofc spokesperson said the ofc is still investigating the shooting.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27612803/jessica-hernandez-shot-four-times-autopsy-says. Feb.27, 2015

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I'm confused. Didn't her father say the M.E. told him she was shot 18 times???
I could've sworn I read that.

ETA:

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...panic-teen-spurs-calls-for-changes-in-denver/

Meanwhile, on the social networks, the parents of Jessica - Jose Hernandez and Laura Rosales - said Monday that their daughter was hit by 18 bullets.

Initially, the word was that a single bullet had hit the teen, but Jose Hernandez said that is not the information he received from the Denver medical examiner.

 

[sherlockh]

I am at a loss as to what the "issue" is. The occupants of a stolen vehicle failed to get out when ordered to by LE, and instead the driver accelerated the vehicle and aimed it toward LE, injuring one officer. LE fires at the car and the driver is injured and later dies at the hospital. It should not make any difference what gender or age the driver was. It wasn't a carjacking with an innocent victim behind the wheel.

MOO

Doesn't seem like that is what happened. Also it is not so strange that nobody heard the police when they were playing loud music. Why didn't the police stay behind the car and use their loudspeakers? For what reason did one think it would be a good idea to stand in front of a stolen car? Clearly the one that killed the driver (from a distance and from the side of the car) wasn't in any life threatening situation. Lethal force should be used as a last resort. Not as a first. JMO.

Qusair Mohamedbhai, an attorney who represents Hernandez's parents, issued a statement saying the autopsy findings "undermine the Denver Police Department's claim that Jessie was driving at the officers as they shot her."

In the statement, Mohamedbhai notes the entry wounds identified in the autopsy indicate Hernandez was shot from the driver's side door.

Mohamedbhai again asked for a federal investigation.

"There is now objective evidence contradicting the Denver Police Department's claims that Jessie was to blame for her own death," the statement said.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27612803/jessica-hernandez-shot-four-times-autopsy-says.

 

[al66pine]

Add me to the confused crew about the number of shots that hit her.

Initially...... 1 bullet, no source, but stated in foxnew link below, Feb 02.
Then ...... 18 bullets, per Father's soc media, same ^ link.
Autopsy .... 3 shots, per DenverPost link pub. Feb 27 5:15 then updated 18 hrs ago.

But per DenverPost url link below "jessica-hernandez-shot-four-times-autopsy-says." (my bolding)

Who knows? IDK.

==================================================================
"Initially, the word was that a single bullet had hit the teen, but Jose Hernandez said
that is not the information he received from the Denver medical examiner."
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...panic-teen-spurs-calls-for-changes-in-denver/ Feb02 ___________________________________________________________________________________
post by Kimberlyd125
".... Didn't her father say the M.E. told him she was shot 18 times???....
ETA http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...panic-teen-spurs-calls-for-changes-in-denver/
Meanwhile, on the social networks, the parents of Jessica - Jose Hernandez and Laura Rosales - said Monday that their daughter washit by 18 bullets.
Initially, the word was that a single bullet had hit the teen, but Jose Hernandez said that is not the information he received from the Denver medical examiner." sbm bbm
______________________________________________________________________
Per http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27612803/jessica-hernandez-shot-four-times-autopsy-says
"The autopsy performed on Jessica Hernandez says the 17-year-old was shot three times
by Denver police officers who say they fired at her for driving a stolen car at them."

 

[al66pine]

.... Also it is not so strange that nobody heard the police when they were playing loud music.
Why didn't the police stay behind the car and use their loudspeakers? For what reason did one think it would be a good idea to stand in front of a stolen car? Clearly the one that killed the driver (from a distance and from the side of the car) wasn't in any life threatening situation. Lethal force should be used as a last resort. Not as a first. JMO.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27612803/jessica-hernandez-shot-four-times-autopsy-says.

bbm sbm

Wish we had a diagram or visual of cars, LEOs, etc.

bbm 1
Nobody heard police???
IIRC, as call(s?) to 911 reported loud music in car in alley, so not unexpected, imo, that ppl in car
may not have heard LE car(s) pull up & may not have heard LEOs approach on foot or talking.
IIRC, LE drove up without lights & sirens. Anybody here verify from MSM, one way or another?

bbm2
Why not use loudspeakers?
If music was loud, then using loudspeakers w/b/louder and w/b/disruptive to neighborhood,
and ppl in car would not necessarily have heard it.

bbm3
Why did LEO stand in front of JC's car?
W the music, did LEO have a way to get driver's attention without approaching car from front or side?
Is it possible driver and/or ppl in car saw LEO(s?) and deliberately ignored?
Would alcohol & marijauna in JC's system impair her hearing or judgment?
IDK.

 

[Woodland]

What's missing is how many weapons were used for the 4 shots to this teen.

It would appear, so far, that the shots were fired from a standing position beside the drivers window - with the weapon(s) pointing downward. It would appear that the vehicle was at a standstill - unless the person(s) firing were running along side a moving vehicle and still managed shots only through the drivers window in a downward trajectory. One weapon might back the officers story. Two weapons will not back the officers story. Jmo.

How many shots, if any, were fired and did not hit Jessica? Noting the difference in how many shots were reportedly fired in total. We did not see any shattered glass in any photos. Seems there are still as many unanswered questions as before.

 

[al66pine]

What's missing is how many weapons were used for the 4 shots to this teen.
It would appear, so far, that the shots were fired from a standing position beside the drivers window - with the weapon(s) pointing downward. It would appear that the vehicle was at a standstill - unless the person(s) firing were running along side a moving vehicle and still managed shots only through the drivers window in a downward trajectory.One weapon might back the officers story. Two weapons will not back the officers story. Jmo.
How many shots, if any, were fired and did not hit Jessica? Noting the difference in how many shots were reportedly fired in total. We did not see any shattered glass in any photos. Seems there are still as many unanswered questions as before.

bbm

re bbm: how many weapons
IIRC, PD official said both the two LEOs at scene fired and wee placed on admin leave (JMMemory)
so it seems two firearms were used, presumably one gun ea for the two LEOs there.

re bbm: one officer or two?
I'm not following line of thinking here. Are you saying -
if only one officer was in danger, say, in front of oncoming car,
1. and only that one officer shot, then his use of firearm was could possibly be justified?
2. and both officers shot, then LEO in front of car could possibly use firearm w justification
but the other LEO's use of firearm could not be justified,
that is, because he personally was not in danger.

If you are saying #2, then DPD policy re use of deadly force might be enlightening to help determine whether these LEOs violated policy and whether it was or was not justified. Relevant part:

"...threatened by an oncoming vehicle shall, if feasible, move out of the way rather than discharging a firearm.
Officer(s) shall not discharge a firearm at a moving vehicle or its occupant(s) in response to a threat posedsolely by the vehicle
unless the officer has an objectively reasonable belief that:
1. The vehicle or suspect poses an immediate threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or another person and [ed: LEO in front of car is 'another person' allowing 2nd LEO to shoot]
2. The officer has no reasonable alternative course of action to prevent death or serious physical injury."

Per http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27...g-unarmed-teen. bbm ubm. and more of policy there

Threat of serious physical injury to another person can justify shooting at moving vehicle.

Or maybe you are saying something else that I'm just not following? thx in adv.

 

[Woodland]

Fwiw al66pine, forensics will speak here, not me, so unable to answer the multiple questions. Those questions are for forensic people.

For the time being, yes the initial reports are that both officers fired their weapons and were placed on admin leave.

Have not heard much about the injured officer to date, fwiw.

So, 4 shots by one officer? Necessary? By two officers? Placing both officers beside the drivers window when the shots were fired?

Not a big leap when the blanks are filled in imo. How many weapons fired the 4 shots is still the question.

 

[sherlockh]

Fwiw al66pine, forensics will speak here, not me, so unable to answer the multiple questions. Those questions are for forensic people.

For the time being, yes the initial reports are that both officers fired their weapons and were placed on admin leave.

Have not heard much about the injured officer to date, fwiw.

So, 4 shots by one officer? Necessary? By two officers? Placing both officers beside the drivers window when the shots were fired?

Not a big leap when the blanks are filled in imo. How many weapons fired the 4 shots is still the question.

Exactly. If both officers were shooting then where are those close range shots that would be fired by the officer whose life was in danger? If only long range shots were fired then clearly something is not adding up. JMO.

 

[al66pine]

Fwiw al66pine, forensics will speak here, not me, so unable to answer the multiple questions. Those questions are for forensic people.
For the time being, yes the initial reports are that both officers fired their weapons and were placed on admin leave.
Have not heard much about the injured officer to date, fwiw.
So, 4 shots by one officer? Necessary? By two officers? Placing both officers beside the drivers window when the shots were fired?
Not a big leap when the blanks are filled in imo. How many weapons fired the 4 shots is still the question.

Agreeing that the forensics will speak here.
.
Of the various earlier bullet-counts (1, 3 , 4, or 17 shots in my post upthread), IDK which is factual.
Curious why someone concludes 4 shots is accurate. Just wondering.

 

[al66pine]

Exactly. If both officers were shooting then where are those close range shots that would be fired by the officer whose life was in danger? If only long range shots were fired then clearly something is not adding up. JMO.

Wish I knew more about what autopsy findings say about the distances fired from, not just angles.
Where's a ballistics expert when we need one?

 

[Yoda]

Autopsy report
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/257233152

 

[Yoda]

If I am reading page three of the autopsy report correctly, she was struck by three bullets. One bullet made two gunshot wounds. This might clear up the confusion- she had four gunshot wounds, but was only shot three times.
This report is also just the autopsy, not the crime scene report.

 

[sherlockh]

Wish I knew more about what autopsy findings say about the distances fired from, not just angles.
Where's a ballistics expert when we need one?

Medical report makes it clear that the driver was not hit by any close range shots. Of course I don't know exactly how close is close and how long is long. I also doubt that it is standard police policy to stand in front of a stolen car. There are still many details missing, but so far we can already draw a few conclusions.
- Driver was shot from some distance from the side of the car, which means the shooter was not in any life threatening situation.
- Police lied that driver was shot while the car was coming at them.
JMO.

 

[Yoda]

Medical report makes it clear that the driver was not hit by any close range shots. Of course I don't know exactly how close is close and how long is long. I also doubt that it is standard police policy to stand in front of a stolen car. There are still many details missing, but so far we can already draw a few conclusions.
- Driver was shot from some distance from the side of the car, which means the shooter was not in any life threatening situation.
- Police lied that driver was shot while the car was coming at them.
JMO.

The crime scene information has not been released.
We do not know how many shots each officer fired or where they were located when firing. We do know that the three shots that struck JH came from her left side.

 

[al66pine]

Autopsy report
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/257233152

A big THANK YOU, Yoda, for this ^ link.

Good to have original source doc, rather than relying on newspaper interp and a summary at that.

 

[al66pine]

^page 3 of autopsy report.
"There was no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm associated with any of the entrance wounds." bbm
What is "close range' in med examiner-speak? ______

Autopsy report, pages 1 & 2, re all 4 entrance wounds:
"No soot or gunpowder stippling on the surrounding skin." bbm
.
"In the case of handguns, stippling/tattooing is typically seen with a muzzle-to-target distance range from about 1 cm to 1 m or less." bbm
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1975428-overview#a30 Gen. Principles of Wound Interpretation
.
So gun muzzle was > 1 meter away from JC, if ^this is applicable reference.

(((ETA: "Range of fire is often questioned, particularly if one side of the dispute alleges that a struggle took place at close range at the time of the shooting.... Only a gross estimate of range of fire may be given (for instance, "inches," "up to a few feet," "more than a few feet") unless the firearm and ammunition used in the shooting have been recovered and test fired for a more accurate range of fire determination." bbm sbm)))
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1975428-overview#aw2aab6c21 "Issues Arising in Court"

Does not tell us much; I wonder how much further LEO(s) was/were than one meter.

<modsnip>

 

[Woodland]

There is something I don't understand from the autopsy report - maybe others can see it as logical though.

Page 1 -

Anatomic Diagnoses I Gunshot Wound of the Torso, Superior. Section E Trajectory - Left to right, back to front and upward.

vs

III Gunshot Wound of the Pelvis. Section E Trajectory - Left to right and downward.

Was expecting left to right, front to back and downward as she was sitting and officer(s) were standing on her left. Not comprehending back to front and upward.

 

[al66pine]

There is something I don't understand from the autopsy report - maybe others can see it as logical though.
Page 1 -
Anatomic Diagnoses I Gunshot Wound of the Torso, Superior. Section E Trajectory - Left to right, back to front and upward.
vs
III Gunshot Wound of the Pelvis. Section E Trajectory - Left to right and downward.
Was expecting left to right, front to back and downward as she was sitting and officer(s) were standing on her left. Not comprehending back to front and upward.

Woodland, good catch in what looks like a possible discrepancy.
I don't see stmt about which shot ME thought was fired 1st, 2nd, etc. Could have missed it.

Rpt says: Shots I and II were upward; shots III and IV were downward.
(Not order in which they were fired, just the order in which ME marked them)

Is it poss upward shots I and II were from LEO#1 falling down?
And downward shots III and IV were from LEO#2 standing?

Just speculating.