Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[steeltowngirl]

Oh oh. Now we are talking football. Look at my logo... on to happy hour for me. I need a cry and a drink.

 

[ilovechili]

<snipped for focus>

This is where things become unclear. When you say “...that they are both guilty,” that can be viewed as both of them being guilty of murderer.

Guilty of what (I don’t mean morally or ethically)?

Let’s end this once and for all. Do you believe they are both LEGALLY, guilty of murder.

I believe, once and for all, there are many states where teens are in prison for life almost (or 20 year olds) that may have just happened to be part of something and allegedly thought their buddy was just going to rob and they had no idea they would kill. KK KNEW. They discussed such. KK COULD HAVE stopped it, saved her, went to LE. Legally I have no idea with Colorado and I do not think anyone does of what the defense or prosecution have right now. If you have such, please share it.

We only know for the most part what KK SAID (I do not disagree they have likely corroborated some things and hopefully a ton of them).

I have said even I think just yesterday I don't want either of them on the street and quite honestly, we do NOT know what either side has but we do know some of what KK said.

I want our FBI, Colorado's LE and DA May, etc. to have a twist and Hang 'Em High per Clint... Both of them. That would be a beautiful ending to an evil murder and disposal and lies *edited to fix* regarding the murder of a young mother.

Perhaps it is a female thing, you have seen a few others (well I think if you read them all no offense, who say the same). It is not a harsher judgment on the female but PF is not on the street running around.

Do I have any proof of who did what? No, I don't think any of us do. However, we have more out of her mouth of the PARTS she admitted to than him.

All they had to do, imo, was play a little tougher. Give her ten years, 20 and perhaps those who feel it is fair would let it go. It is like she and her attorney made and demanded all of the rules?? Down to cameras of KK? She is getting less than some 17 year old with alcohol quite possibly. Yes, it disgusts me and I shall stay that way. I have not proven anything, I am going by what she herself admitted to even.

I honestly think your DA is not 100 percent tickled with this case and what has been handed to him. However, again that is jmo.

In Maleah's case everyone is yelling for the mother to be arrested. I don't like her a bit and maybe she deserves it but she has never been charged and I thought per TOS they could not do that. Here KK has been charged, has admitted to things, still has a nursing license, etc. and it feels like she is defended. Some of us get told we defend PF (and I do not) and others (edited to fix) trash KK about Sonic but take her words as fact. That woman from a woman's instinct is a flat out liar. I do believe there is some truth in her statements.

And please believe me that if PF right now was out on bail, I would yell as loud or LOUDER than anyone and have a TOTAL FIT.

I just think, imo anyhow, if one truly cares about the victims (we all are different and have different views--at least I think that), that of course one will admit if they have to, that a part of them worries that justice will be served even if they say they implicitly trust their LE, the case and their DA.

I understand that things ad nauseum get old but many of us are here far less than some. I get tired too of the Sonic thing, and stuff that has nothing to do with what is called a debate, discussion, etc. This is the most active I have been in ages.

I just simply thus far do not think they vetted her enough. I hope I find out otherwise. I hope the prosecution slam dunks EVERYTHING and again, they both go away.

I am almost without fail pro prosecution.

It is almost worse than politics that sometimes no one can have an opinion or discuss or be even in the middle.

<modsnip>

ETA: My caps are not yelling--they are for once and for all to hopefully reach an understanding and emphasis as my views are taken wrong.

 

[Sillybilly]

Please stop the insults and bickering and get back to discussing the case itself (instead of other members or yourselves).

 

[Gardener1850]

Current Status: Looking for the "Ignore" button...on account of "scroll and roll" just ain't cutting it here any more.

Click on the user's name. Click on ignore. Hope this helps.

Side note: Some of you are extremely patient. I love that ignore button-- Except when someone I am ignoring power posts and others I'm not ignoring continue to respond to the power posting. Then I have no idea what is going on with a thread and I sometimes end up "unignoring" just to try to figure out what I missed.
But for the most part the ignore button is a sanity saver. I recommend it.

MOO

 

[Love Never Fails]

Oh oh. Now we are talking football. Look at my logo... on to happy hour for me. I need a cry and a drink.

LOL! Don’t cry. We won’t discuss football. Off topic. But let me just say Tom Brady is real easy on the eyes. So if anyone just has to bring up football, let’s talk about him.

 

[MemPat]

Hold it. Are you telling me you haven’t read every single court ruling in the state of Colorado since 1953?

And we've been hanging our hats on Gitana's advice!!?

ETA: Thank goodness we can!

• Bang Head Here.

 

[MyBelle]

Kelsey was planning on making a sweet potato casserole for PF on the day she was murdered.
Maybe that's where it's coming from.

iirc, Kelsey asked PF if he wanted her to make a sweet potato casserole. If he responded, I missed it.

JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

iirc, Kelsey asked PF if he wanted her to make a sweet potato casserole. If he responded, I missed it.

JMO

He never responded because he was on the way to murder her. She told him to pick up the pecans if he wanted them.

Apparently he didn't.

IMO

 

[MyBelle]

That's fair. But I think many do count on the evidence unseen to be super strong and indicative of culpability or the lack thereof, based on the logic of the situation.

Again, no body cases are super hard to win. No way is a DA going to risk taking one to trial and losing the faith of his constituents when there is a viable alternative suspect out there.

That would be very irresponsible and bad for his career and I don't see the tiniest indiciation that this DA is an idiot or doesn't know what he's doing.

Further, it is clear that @MassGuy was indeed correct- they did not name an alternate suspect. They left the door open to say someone else could've been there, done that, but they didn't actually name KK.

So I go back to my original analysis- if they had any evidence that pointed to her being here, based on her knowledge of the crime, her statements, they would've named her as an alternative suspect, IMO. Because that is really his only viable defense.

So for me, logic, deductive reasoning, eliminate the viability of the theory that KK was actually there.

Too many factors point away from that for me.

That's not to say trial won't be interesting. And based on my belief that emotion sometimes supercedes logic, I don't think we can say this will be a slam dunk.

BBM. I agree. The DA isn't up for reelection so his sweet plea deal with KK was a gamble only if he aspires to another political office AND if PF isn't convicted. I think the jury will have no trouble convicting PF on the solicitation charges. There is a real possibility this was a hired hit all along. I don't believe PF asked KK to do it herself, I think she was supposed to come up with the assassin and did so. Assassins don't hang around and clean up their mess or dispose of the body and other evidence.

I do have a legal question for you: can there be a conviction on all three solicitation charges?

JMO

 

[Seattle1]

Sam's refresher on the case against PF

Breaking down the case against Patrick Frazee for the murder of Kelsey Berreth

 

[MemPat]

BBM. I agree. The DA isn't up for reelection so his sweet plea deal with KK was a gamble only if he aspires to another political office AND if PF isn't convicted. I think the jury will have no trouble convicting PF on the solicitation charges. There is a real possibility this was a hired hit all along. I don't believe PF asked KK to do it herself, I think she was supposed to come up with the assassin and did so. Assassins don't hang around and clean up their mess or dispose of the body and other evidence.

I do have a legal question for you: can there be a conviction on all three solicitation charges?

JMO

I always struggle when a new scenario with no evidence to support it pops up.
I believe that if the defense attorney tries to float a hired gun theory he will be shot down (pardon my accidental pun).
.............................

Conviction on all three solicitation charges requires belief that KK is speaking the truth.
So we can believe that but not the other details she told which are corroborated?

 

[Seattle1]

I do have a legal question for you: can there be a conviction on all three solicitation charges?

Conviction on all three solicitation charges requires belief that KK is speaking the truth.
So we can believe that but not the other details she told which are corroborated?

^^SBM

The complaint states the three solicitations occurred between and including Sept 1 - Nov 1, 2018, and each count listed separately. I think the State will have to prove each incident to get a conviction on all three.

 

[susiQ]

Hold it. Are you telling me you haven’t read every single court ruling in the state of Colorado since 1953?

MG, you forgot the sarcasm font??

 

[Love Never Fails]

I have a genuine question for everyone. Why do we have to only discuss the one theory police have, and KK gave? This is a thread dedicated to KB. We want her killer to get convicted. Why do you not want posters to comment on alternate theories?

Since there has been no trial and no conviction, why does it irritate you that someone thinks PF could have wanted to hire a hit man and paid KK to find him? He would still have the same result. But since LE tied KK to this, isn’t it possible she didn’t want to say she paid a hit man for fear of that person? And since LE knew there were solicitations it was better for her to lay the blame on PF?

I understand the simplest theory is usually right but why are other ideas attacked? When you do that you run other posters off the thread. Is that the goal here?

It’s a fair question. If you want us gone, say so. Otherwise, we just join in unison and it makes for a dull thread.

 

[MsBetsy]

I believe, once and for all, there are many states where teens are in prison for life almost (or 20 year olds) that may have just happened to be part of something and allegedly thought their buddy was just going to rob and they had no idea they would kill. KK KNEW. They discussed such. KK COULD HAVE stopped it, saved her, went to LE. Legally I have no idea with Colorado and I do not think anyone does of what the defense or prosecution have right now. If you have such, please share it.

We only know for the most part what KK SAID (I do not disagree they have likely corroborated some things and hopefully a ton of them).

I have said even I think just yesterday I don't want either of them on the street and quite honestly, we do NOT know what either side has but we do know some of what KK said.

I want our FBI, Colorado's LE and DA May, etc. to have a twist and Hang 'Em High per Clint... Both of them. That would be a beautiful ending to an evil murder and disposal and lies *edited to fix* regarding the murder of a young mother.

Perhaps it is a female thing, you have seen a few others (well I think if you read them all no offense, who say the same). It is not a harsher judgment on the female but PF is not on the street running around.

Do I have any proof of who did what? No, I don't think any of us do. However, we have more out of her mouth of the PARTS she admitted to than him.

All they had to do, imo, was play a little tougher. Give her ten years, 20 and perhaps those who feel it is fair would let it go. It is like she and her attorney made and demanded all of the rules?? Down to cameras of KK? She is getting less than some 17 year old with alcohol quite possibly. Yes, it disgusts me and I shall stay that way. I have not proven anything, I am going by what she herself admitted to even.

I honestly think your DA is not 100 percent tickled with this case and what has been handed to him. However, again that is jmo.

In Maleah's case everyone is yelling for the mother to be arrested. I don't like her a bit and maybe she deserves it but she has never been charged and I thought per TOS they could not do that. Here KK has been charged, has admitted to things, still has a nursing license, etc. and it feels like she is defended. Some of us get told we defend PF (and I do not) and others (edited to fix) trash KK about Sonic but take her words as fact. That woman from a woman's instinct is a flat out liar. I do believe there is some truth in her statements.

And please believe me that if PF right now was out on bail, I would yell as loud or LOUDER than anyone and have a TOTAL FIT.

I just think, imo anyhow, if one truly cares about the victims (we all are different and have different views--at least I think that), that of course one will admit if they have to, that a part of them worries that justice will be served even if they say they implicitly trust their LE, the case and their DA.

I understand that things ad nauseum get old but many of us are here far less than some. I get tired too of the Sonic thing, and stuff that has nothing to do with what is called a debate, discussion, etc. This is the most active I have been in ages.

I just simply thus far do not think they vetted her enough. I hope I find out otherwise. I hope the prosecution slam dunks EVERYTHING and again, they both go away.

I am almost without fail pro prosecution.

It is almost worse than politics that sometimes no one can have an opinion or discuss or be even in the middle.

<modsnip>

ETA: My caps are not yelling--they are for once and for all to hopefully reach an understanding and emphasis as my views are taken wrong.

So was that a yes or a no?

 

[MemPat]

So was that a yes or a no?

 

[MassGuy]

I have a genuine question for everyone. Why do we have to only discuss the one theory police have, and KK gave? This is a thread dedicated to KB. We want her killer to get convicted. Why do you not want posters to comment on alternate theories?

Since there has been no trial and no conviction, why does it irritate you that someone thinks PF could have wanted to hire a hit man and paid KK to find him? He would still have the same result. But since LE tied KK to this, isn’t it possible she didn’t want to say she paid a hit man for fear of that person? And since LE knew there were solicitations it was better for her to lay the blame on PF?

I understand the simplest theory is usually right but why are other ideas attacked? When you do that you run other posters off the thread. Is that the goal here?

It’s a fair question. If you want us gone, say so. Otherwise, we just join in unison and it makes for a dull thread.

Because these theories don’t have evidence that supports them.

If the evidence supports a theory, then it is inherently able to withstand scrutiny.

You don’t get to post a theory, and then complain when multiple people pick it apart.

So people should post, and no one can question them?

 

[MassGuy]

MG, you forgot the sarcasm font??

Ha! I didn’t know there was a font for that.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Because these theories don’t have evidence that supports them.

If the evidence supports a theory, then it is inherently able to withstand scrutiny.

You don’t get to post a theory, and then complain when multiple people pick it apart.

So people should post, and no one can question them?

Nope, that isn’t my question. Think about it, sometimes if it is just a theory there is nothing to pick apart. So all you have to say is that you don’t see it that way. We don’t have all the evidence.

Tell you what, I can wait till trial and then if prosecution or the defense introduces evidence we haven’t heard, and they will, can we then offer a theory that won’t be picked apart?

See, I thought this was a thread where people shared their ideas, no matter if it sounds crazy to others. The other threads are that way.

If the trial was over and there was a resolution then I would agree that no one should pick it apart.

I just don’t want to see any of us picking each other apart because we disagree.

 

[MassGuy]

Nope, that isn’t my question. Think about it, sometimes if it is just a theory there is nothing to pick apart. So all you have to say is that you don’t see it that way. We don’t have all the evidence.

Tell you what, I can wait till trial and then if prosecution or the defense introduces evidence we haven’t heard, and they will, can we then offer a theory that won’t be picked apart?

See, I thought this was a thread where people shared their ideas, no matter if it sounds crazy to others. The other threads are that way.

If the trial was over and there was a resolution then I would agree that no one should pick it apart.

I just don’t want to see any of us picking each other apart because we disagree.

A theory that isn’t based on evidence, is a fantasy. It’s made up, with no basis in known fact.

For me, the fun in discussing a case comes from different theories based on the same set of facts and evidence.

I don’t understand this idea that people are “being silenced,” or “scared to post their theories.”

Or the idea that refuting someone’s theory is somehow mean spirited.

If you don’t want to post something because you are scared of someone saying they disagree with you, that’s not on everyone else.

That’s on you.