Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

True. He's not in prison until he's convicted and sentenced. But rushing trial because he's tired of sitting in jail and giving up the only viable defense because he wants to hurry, is pretty much guaranteeing he will be sitting in prison for the rest of his life.

His attorneys would tell him that. And they wouldn't agree to give up such a defense just because their client is bored with jail. That's not logical.

I didn't say that if they wanted to argue they didn't have enough time to assert and alternate suspect defense they would have "said so" yesterday.

Nope. They would've filed a writ with the appellate court and a motion to stay the time limit with the trial court, pending the outcome of the writ.

If they did not do so, there is no argument that they weren't given a delay. They haven't even preserved that argument for a possible appeal since they apparently filed no writ.

However, if they had and there was a confiction and then possible appeal, yes, at a retrial they could bring it back up and ask for that finding again.

But they didn't preserve the issue. So that's a moot point. And there is simply no way in hell they wouldn't work "fast" (they've had months) to present such a theory in the hopes that somehow there would be a successful appeal based in part an issue they have no preserved for appeal.

Finally, I have not said anything about whether you feel he's innocent or not. I must take you at your word.

However, IMO, arguing that the fact that the defense threw away the only really strong defense they had creates nothing more than an assumption about whether PF murdered Kelsey, and contorting to find some way that an alternate suspect theory can somehow still come in despite the passing deadline and the absence of any legal filing to forestall that deadline, does create a definite impression of desperation to find PF is somehow innocent of the murder charge.

This is over. That's my legal opinion. There are no facts that enable KK to be the alternate suspect or those would have been brought before the court in a response to the motion to exclude.

That theory cannot now be presented at PF's trial. Done.

I am no attorney as I said and that is where I am probably not clear at times.

When you talk about the writ or appeal, I mean basically the same thing, but probably said it as to let the county court know they were filing one, asking for time, etc. meaning I do agree, they apparently did not do that yesterday, as far as we know. However, I would not count on reporters knowing that, they have been asking about filing the alternate suspect thing, not whether anything else was filed. As i said, I am just asking. Each thing presents more questions and I like to hear the answers so thank you.

So you think they let go of their best defense and KK would have been the best defense as an alternate suspect?

I think I made it clear to you my remarks as if some think KK murdered her and PF was guilty was not directed at you saying that to me, but seems to be mentioned in any remark in general sometimes if something is questioned.

Everyone should know my opinion by now and long since but I keep hearing that in replies to me. If I had my way we would go back, they would negotiate a bit stronger and she would be on trial too for her part and not just one nothing charge. I know again that will be disagreed with but I can wish. I don't know how the setup is laid out but if she was in the female part of jail awaiting trial as well, maybe they could pass notes, wave at each other through a little cell window and try to create a code... and sext in hand signals or something... Just trying to lighten it up...

To each their own, but assuming anything I believe is a dangerous thing to do by either prosecution or defense.

I know your opinion of jurors in CA (Casey Anthony not California) and I expected both cases of OJ and CA to be guilty convictions. Some assume that here, a guilty verdict, and it worries me but I certainly PRAY for it. It is in no way that I want that but I do worry about it. Nothing could be worse than both of these two partners in crime going free. On the other hand, I was TICKLED with the Scott Peterson verdict and that the jury saw what was what. Of course he did not have a gf that was complicit or talked about murdering his wife with him or cleaned up or even knew his wife was alive and or that he was married. That ain't KK. AF did the right thing, knew she had been played and sought justice for the "other" woman she did not know about. Again that ain't KK who at minimum did not go to LE or stop a murder of the other woman.

Jmo. With all due respect

Edited to clarify a bit.

 

[gitana1]

I am no attorney as I said and that is where I am probably not clear at times.

When you talk about the writ or appeal, I mean basically the same thing, but probably said it as to let the county court know they were filing one, asking for time, etc. meaning I do agree, they apparently did not do that yesterday, as far as we know. However, I would not count on reporters knowing that, they have been asking about filing the alternate suspect thing, not whether anything else was filed. As i said, I am just asking. Each thing presents more questions and I like to hear the answers so thank you.

So you think they let go of their best defense and KK would have been the best defense as an alternate suspect?

I think I made it clear to you my remarks as if some think KK murdered her and PF was guilty was not directed at you saying that to me, but seems to be mentioned in any remark in general sometimes if something is questioned.

Everyone should know my opinion by now and long since but I keep hearing that in replies to me. If I had my way we would go back, they would negotiate a bit stronger and she would be on trial too for her part and not just one nothing charge. I know again that will be disagreed with but I can wish. I don't know how the setup is laid out but if she was in the female part of jail awaiting trial as well, maybe they could pass notes, wave at each other through a little cell window and try to create a code... and sext in hand signals or something... Just trying to lighten it up...

To each their own, but assuming anything I believe is a dangerous thing to do by either prosecution or defense.

I know your opinion of jurors in CA and I expected both cases of OJ and CA to be guilty convictions. Some assume that here, a guilty verdict, and it worries me but I certainly PRAY for it. It is in no way that I want that but I do worry about it. Nothing could be worse than both of these two partners in crime going free. On the other hand, I was TICKLED with the Scott Peterson verdict and that the jury saw what was what. Of course he did not have a gf that was complicit or talked about murdering his wife with him or cleaned up or even knew his wife was alive and he was worried. That ain't KK. AF did the right thing, knew she had been played and sought justice for the "other" woman she did not know about. Again that ain't KK.

Jmo. With all due respect

Edited to clarify a bit.

Well, no. I think they let go of their best defense if they actually had a shred of evidence that someone else committed the crime. They don't have anything else that will be as successful as a possible alternate suspect, in my legal opinion.

The fact that they let it go is fact that they have no such evidence. Nothing. So it is total confirmation that there is nothing available for them to show KK murdered Kelsey and not PF.

Thanks for clarifying. One thing I do assume too much is that everyone on here has a lot of legal knowledge!

I do think KK's deal is too good to be true. Sounds like she was a real conspirator and accessory. But it was the only way to not let the main culprit go free. And we have to also keep in mind what that would've meant to Kelsey's child and the relatives desperate to protect her.

It was a good decision IMO.

OJ and Casey Anthony were anomalies based on things outside of the evidence or lack thereof in my opinion. One based on a history of inequity in the system toward people of color, a failure on the part of the state to challenge the change of venue and an unfortunate witness who liked to use the N word.

The second based primarily on an extremely harsh and punitive jury sequestration that had the jury refuse to find guilt on ANY of the multiple criminal charges available that would've resulted in a sentencing phase. Not even child endangerment. Those jurors were desperate to go home and got their wish.

Dumbest mistake Belvin Perry ever made in holding that jury hostage. You can see his face realizing his mistake when he scanned through the verdict form.

In any event, two anomalies out of the hundreds of murder cases we follow on here actually prove the rule. They don't reasonably portend a possible exception.

 

[Dave F.]

No it does not. That's not at all logical. It's also not the way it works. Even if they had a "better line of defense", all possible defenses are used if there is a basis for them. As a defense attorney you don't hang your hat on one.

There is no better defense unless they can trot in the murder victim, alive, into court, in a shining and fantastical 11th hour Perry Mason moment. Which also wouldn't happen because if the victim was alive the defense would file to release the defendant from jail immediately.

ETA: It was also not at all an "unusual move" by the state. It's standard in CO. Why would you think it's unusual?

District 4 is comprised of El Paso County (Colorado Springs) and Teller County. In 2018, there were 29 murder cases in Colorado Springs, and this 1 murder case in Teller county. In 2017, there were also 29 murders in Colorado Springs, and none in Teller county. So, the total cases is obviously 59.
I searched pretty extensively and could find no other case in which the Alternate Suspect Defense was used in 2018. I did find a case in 2017 in which two men that the state wanted to try together had asked for separate trials, and the 4th district attorney’s office was able to use the same type of filing that he used in this case.

I think twice in 59 cases is unusual, but as I stated, it’s my opinion. IMO

https://www.krdo.com/news/top-stori...perienced-increase-in-violent-crime/801908043
These Are The 10 Murder Capitals Of Colorado For 2019 - RoadSnacks
Defense wants separate trials for 2 Colorado Springs men charged with murder

 

[gitana1]

District 4 is comprised of El Paso County (Colorado Springs) and Teller County. In 2018, there were 29 murder cases in Colorado Springs, and this 1 murder case in Teller county. In 2017, there were also 29 murders in Colorado Springs, and none in Teller county. So, the total cases is obviously 59.
I searched pretty extensively and could find no other case in which the Alternate Suspect Defense was used in 2018. I did find a case in 2017 in which two men that the state wanted to try together had asked for separate trials, and the 4th district attorney’s office was able to use the same type of filing that he used in this case.

I think twice in 59 cases is unusual, but as I stated, it’s my opinion. IMO

2017 Crime Report: Colorado Springs experienced increase in violent crime
These Are The 10 Murder Capitals Of Colorado For 2019 - RoadSnacks
Defense wants separate trials for 2 Colorado Springs men charged with murder

Except you stated that the state was unusual in filing the motion to exclude such evidence without asserting the defense pretrial. That's what we are talking about. Not whether it's rare to use the defense.

 

[gitana1]

I’m not the kind of person to jump up and down with excitement, but if I was, that’s what I’d be doing right now.

I fully expected the defense to blame this on KK, despite the fact that the evidence was not on their side.

Apparently they realized that pointing the finger at someone who wasn’t there, would have been insane.

I could have told them that months ago.

Yup. It is just one giant step closer to conviction IMO.

I'm sure Kelsey's loved ones are pleased.

Indeed this shows how strong the state's case is.

 

[ilovechili]

Thank you. This is more what I was looking for or asking. As I said, I probably did not word it right and was truly asking for a legal opinion on all questions and all questions were something I truly wanted answers to and not a one leans towards my opinion.

I am just being honest and seeing some possible issues and I enjoy discussion if one can be had. There are issues here with LE not noticing blood, etc. something like three times. I am not rooting for them nor am I wanting PF found anything but guilty but if honest, there are holes that can be poked (as far as we know now, maybe they have it covered) and even without an alternate suspect, jurors that will pick up on if KK lies.

In CA I agree sequestering was an issue but there still was the fact of the time before that child was even reported missing. I guess we are all different, no one could make me acquit or convict even if my life was falling apart at home while I was sequestered.

I so agree with you G1 about Mark Furhmann, I think that part of the OJ trial may have been a big part of the percentage that turned things. He lied and it was proven.

I don't like KK's deal and I get the deal has been struck. It won't stop me from hoping though that she will screw up one day and be put away as well.

Thanks for discussing it. I just am going to worry in a case such as this is. I will bet every victim's family hoping for a conviction goes through such fear as well, even if they think there will be a likely conviction, there is always that doubt.

Have a good one!

 

[gitana1]

Thank you. This is more what I was looking for or asking. As I said, I probably did not word it right and was truly asking for a legal opinion on all questions and all questions were something I truly wanted answers to and not a one leans towards my opinion.

I am just being honest and seeing some possible issues and I enjoy discussion if one can be had. There are issues here with LE not noticing blood, etc. something like three times. I am not rooting for them nor am I wanting PF found anything but guilty but if honest, there are holes that can be poked (as far as we know now, maybe they have it covered) and even without an alternate suspect, jurors that will pick up on if KK lies.

In CA I agree sequestering was an issue but there still was the fact of the time before that child was even reported missing. I guess we are all different, no one could make me acquit or convict even if my life was falling apart at home while I was sequestered.

I so agree with you G1 about Mark Furhmann, I think that part of the OJ trial may have been a big part of the percentage that turned things. He lied and it was proven.

I don't like KK's deal and I get the deal has been struck. It won't stop me from hoping though that she will screw up one day and be put away as well.

Thanks for discussing it. I just am going to worry in a case such as this is. I will bet every victim's family hoping for a conviction goes through such fear as well, even if they think there will be a likely conviction, there is always that doubt.

Have a good one!

Yes and my apologies for the statement about "said so" versus filing a writ. I realize I sometimes expect everyone here to have a similar legal knowledge as attorneys. So it skews how I read a response. But that's not fair and made my response come off as rude.

 

[ilovechili]

Yes and my apologies for the statement about "said so" versus filing a writ. I realize I sometimes expect everyone here to have a similar legal knowledge as attorneys. So it skews how I read a response. But that's not fair and made my response come off as rude.

Not really, I am fine and that is why I explained further. I did say IANAL, I know a wee bit more than the average bear as Yogi would say, but only in my own area as well and only as a bystander. And that is exactly why I asked you, I rarely tag someone

Thank you again.

ETA: The "not" really was in regard to you did not hit me as rude, I understood which is why I continued discussing or asking. I did feel my points were missed but that is explained by the fact you live in a legal world which is why I wanted to clarify it. I asked you as someone I thought would know but very likely I did not use legalese.

 

[PommyMommy]

SEP 17, 2019
No 'alternate suspect' allowed at Berreth murder trial
Florissant rancher Patrick Frazee cannot identify his mistress as his fiancée Kelsey Berreth’s killer when he heads to trial in Cripple Creek in late October.

[...]

The missed court deadline would appear to cap speculation that Frazee will try to pin all the blame on Krystal Kenney, the woman who pleaded guilty and awaits sentencing for cleaning blood at Berreth’s town house at disposing of her cellular phone.

For an effective defense based on alternate suspect, the person must have motive, opportunity and some other witness or piece of evidence connecting them to a crime, said longtime Colorado Springs attorney Phil Dubois, also uninvolved.

Short of that, running an alternate suspect could backfire by straining a jury’s credulity.

“If the jury says ‘No way,’ you are worse off than if you left open the question of who did it,” Dubois said.

 

[gitana1]

Not really, I am fine and that is why I explained further. I did say IANAL, I know a wee bit more than the average bear as Yogi would say, but only in my own area as well and only as a bystander. And that is exactly why I asked you, I rarely tag someone

Thank you again.

ETA: The not really was in regard to you did not hit me as rude, I understood which is why I continued discussing or asking. I did feel my points were missed but that is explained by the fact you live in a legal world which is why I wanted to clarify it. I asked you as someone I thought would know but very likely I did not use legalese.

I will try to take a breath before posting in the future. No one wants to reach out to someone else and get shot down for reaching out!!

You're right. You really did say IANAL!!

 

[MassGuy]

DBM

Damnit @PommyMommy

 

[PommyMommy]

I am no attorney as I said and that is where I am probably not clear at times.

When you talk about the writ or appeal, I mean basically the same thing, but probably said it as to let the county court know they were filing one, asking for time, etc. meaning I do agree, they apparently did not do that yesterday, as far as we know. However, I would not count on reporters knowing that, they have been asking about filing the alternate suspect thing, not whether anything else was filed. As i said, I am just asking. Each thing presents more questions and I like to hear the answers so thank you.

So you think they let go of their best defense and KK would have been the best defense as an alternate suspect?

I think I made it clear to you my remarks as if some think KK murdered her and PF was guilty was not directed at you saying that to me, but seems to be mentioned in any remark in general sometimes if something is questioned.

Everyone should know my opinion by now and long since but I keep hearing that in replies to me. If I had my way we would go back, they would negotiate a bit stronger and she would be on trial too for her part and not just one nothing charge. I know again that will be disagreed with but I can wish. I don't know how the setup is laid out but if she was in the female part of jail awaiting trial as well, maybe they could pass notes, wave at each other through a little cell window and try to create a code... and sext in hand signals or something... Just trying to lighten it up...

To each their own, but assuming anything I believe is a dangerous thing to do by either prosecution or defense.

I know your opinion of jurors in CA (Casey Anthony not California) and I expected both cases of OJ and CA to be guilty convictions. Some assume that here, a guilty verdict, and it worries me but I certainly PRAY for it. It is in no way that I want that but I do worry about it. Nothing could be worse than both of these two partners in crime going free. On the other hand, I was TICKLED with the Scott Peterson verdict and that the jury saw what was what. Of course he did not have a gf that was complicit or talked about murdering his wife with him or cleaned up or even knew his wife was alive and or that he was married. That ain't KK. AF did the right thing, knew she had been played and sought justice for the "other" woman she did not know about. Again that ain't KK who at minimum did not go to LE or stop a murder of the other woman.

Jmo. With all due respect

Edited to clarify a bit.

BBM

Rob McCallum isn't a reporter. He is the PIO for CO Supreme Court, CO Court of Appeals, and CO Courts. See profile at link below. MOO

Rob McCallum on Twitter
People v Frazee: No motions or notices were filed overnight #KelseyBerreth
8:27 AM · Sep 17, 2019

DBM

Damnit @PommyMommy

Lol. ​

 

[Sweetsbeach]

Well, no. I think they let go of their best defense if they actually had a shred of evidence that someone else committed the crime. They don't have anything else that will be as successful as a possible alternate suspect, in my legal opinion.

The fact that they let it go is fact that they have no such evidence. Nothing. So it is total confirmation that there is nothing available for them to show KK murdered Kelsey and not PF.

Thanks for clarifying. One thing I do assume too much is that everyone on here has a lot of legal knowledge!

I do think KK's deal is too good to be true. Sounds like she was a real conspirator and accessory. But it was the only way to not let the main culprit go free. And we have to also keep in mind what that would've meant to Kelsey's child and the relatives desperate to protect her.

It was a good decision IMO.

OJ and Casey Anthony were anomalies based on things outside of the evidence or lack thereof in my opinion. One based on a history of inequity in the system toward people of color, a failure on the part of the state to challenge the change of venue and an unfortunate witness who liked to use the N word.

The second based primarily on an extremely harsh and punitive jury sequestration that had the jury refuse to find guilt on ANY of the multiple criminal charges available that would've resulted in a sentencing phase. Not even child endangerment. Those jurors were desperate to go home and got their wish.

Dumbest mistake Belvin Perry ever made in holding that jury hostage. You can see his face realizing his mistake when he scanned through the verdict form.

In any event, two anomalies out of the hundreds of murder cases we follow on here actually prove the rule. They don't reasonably portend a possible exception.

It is scary to think of the anomalies. I pray there isn't one person among those future jurors that will forget who the real victims are in this case. I could just see the defense using claims of abuse to gain sympathy...and I don't mean PF's lies about KB. Would it surprise anyone if suddenly PF's history is rewritten to show him suffering multiple forms of abuse as a child? That seems to be an effective strategy for whatever reason.

 

[MassGuy]

Thanks to today’s developments, it looks like the trial will begin as scheduled on October, 28.

As it’s expected to last about three weeks, the jury could be delivering their verdict almost a year to the day of Kesley’s murder.

That would be stunningly fast, and ironically beautiful.

Last year PF ate Thanksgiving dinner just hours after bludgeoning Kelsey to death.

This year, PF will enjoy that meal from behind bars.

I hope it’s one of those tofu turkeys, with a side of sweet justice.

 

[MassGuy]

It is scary to think of the anomalies. I pray there isn't one person among those future jurors that will forget who the real victims are in this case. I could just see the defense using claims of abuse to gain sympathy...and I don't mean PF's lies about KB. Would it surprise anyone if suddenly PF's history is rewritten to show him suffering multiple forms of abuse as a child? That seems to be an effective strategy for whatever reason.

That’s a common strategy, but not an effective one (anecdotally atleast).

I can’t imagine any member of the jury being swayed by abuse accusations directed at PF’s mommy (or whoever).

The evidence is strong, the victim sympathetic, and the killer a vile monster.

This guy won’t score any sympathy points from the jury.

 

[PommyMommy]

Bringing over from the media thread.

People v Frazee: No motions or notices were filed overnight #KelseyBerreth
8:27 AM · Sep 17, 2019

Kind of scares me. Makes me think that there defense is so strong they don't need an alternate suspect JMO and hoping its wrong.

Don't be scared. They got 'nuthin. They'll object, pick apart this, pick apart that, and in the end PF's going down. Assuming the jury is made up of folks with some cotton pickin' sense of course! MOO​

 

[katydid23]

I am not going to be reading too much into this. It was an unusual legal move by the prosecution, which met no resistance at all from either the defense or the judge. It does not indicate the strength of the prosecution case, and it only indicates that the defense, including PF himself, believe they have a better line of defense than Alternate Suspect. IMO

What great line of defense could they have? He traveled around with both cells phones during the killing and the aftermath, he sent phony texts, and then he lied to several important people, pretending to be contact with her, after she was murdered. And he shared his murder plans with someone with a big mouth.

I don't see many options for constructing a solid defense.

 

[ilovechili]

I will try to take a breath before posting in the future. No one wants to reach out to someone else and get shot down for reaching out!!

You're right. You really did say IANAL!!

I thought I did Never even been near law school or the bar. I truly wanted your opinion.

All is good

 

[GordianKnot]

Thanks to today’s developments, it looks like the trial will begin as scheduled on October, 28.

As it’s expected to last about three weeks, the jury could be delivering their verdict almost a year to the day of Kesley’s murder.

That would be stunningly fast, and ironically beautiful.

Last year PF ate Thanksgiving dinner just hours after bludgeoning Kelsey to death.

This year, PF will enjoy that meal from behind bars.

I hope it’s one of those tofu turkeys, with a side of sweet justice.

BBM:
HaHaHaHa!
Yes.
No more of Ma F's home cookin' for her baby.

From here on out, every holiday will spell "Tofurkey Time!" for PF.
And cold, lumpy instant mashies w/ congealed gravy.

 

[MassGuy]

What great line of defense could they have? He traveled around with both cells phones during the killing and the aftermath, he sent phony texts, and then he lied to several important people, pretending to be contact with her, after she was murdered. And he shared his murder plans with someone with a big mouth.

I don't see many options for constructing a solid defense.

Exactly.

We know when Kelsey was murdered, how she was murdered, and where she was murdered.

That cell phone evidence, lies, and KK, will show who killed her.

Good luck with that.