Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #39

[UnicornShoe]

Please forgive me- but I'm new on here. Is there a list of who the VI's are? Or is it noted on their profile thing on the left of their post?

 

[Madison418]

I’m quite surprised that MSM hasn’t named & done a story about this Andarko AP (from the affidavit) yet.

There is enough speculation and just enough facts floating around that you’d think it would have hit People, at least.

I wonder if LE has laid down the hammer on that? Is there anything they can do to prevent the AP's story getting out? I mean this is a major witness IMO. She could very well be the motive.

All MOO

 

[NuttMegg]

He almost makes himself out to be a hero, rushing into the room after seeing what she was doing, and trying to stop her.

No kidding. When what he was probably doing is coming back upstairs with big garbage bags to clean it all up.

 

[AbbyG]

Coping over this post from the last thread, it's got me thinking.

CW says he went downstairs and there's a baby monitor downstairs that he saw things on....I thought earlier it was said that the baby monitor was on Shanann's side of the bed. So what is the significance of a downstairs monitor and him going downstairs and looking in it down there? What could that mean in this part-truths scenario?

And the other thing is CW saying he saw one of the girls 'blue' on the monitor.

Did Shanann look in the downstairs monitor when she came home? Is she the one who saw something on the monitor and shouted for him as she ran up the stairs to check on the girls?

I would think that if a parent looked on the monitor and saw something amiss with a child that they'd run to that child before checking the second child? Say she saw the child laying oddly and thought maybe she'd had a fit or an asthma attack, why assume something had also happened to the other child? And if the monitor is something where you change channels, then that's a question he needs to answer in his version where it's him checking the monitor and seeing her 'actively strangling' the second child? Why would you check the second channel if you'd already seen something scarily amiss with the first child? I'm not a parent so I don't know what most parents would do in that situation?

The other thing is the blue skin. Why would he say that? He saw the bodies when he was strangling them... he might have strangled them in the dark? He might have put the blankets over the bodies in a darkened room and carried them down to the truck covered up? Then he wouldn't have seen the blue or known the extent of it? I think this helps, because it's such a strange lie to tell to say he saw the child blue on a blue-screen monitor, especially when it's not usual for the body to turn completely blue as if you were looking at the child on a blue-screen monitor, and yet that's pretty much what he's describing. This doesn't feel like the precise explanation for it, but I think it's in the ballpark.

If Shanann is the one who saw something amiss on the downstairs monitor and rushed upstairs to the first child, if she got into the room and turned the light on and the child was dead she probably would have noticed a bluish tinge to the lips...it's something she'd know to look out for with two children with asthma, and she'd know it doesn't necessarily mean the child is dead but instead indicates lack of oxygen in the blood. So if she gets into that room to check on the first child who she saw in the monitor downstairs, she turns the light on and runs over to the child and looks, she sees the blueish lips and shouts, "her lips are blue, we need to call 911!" And CW turns this into seeing the child blue on the monitor. Which again could be in the ballpark for getting to a real explanation of that oddity in his confession.

Thoughts?

Your scenario makes heartbreaking sense. I had come to believe that he killed their children earlier in the evening. I think if he really was grilling alone at 7:15, that is far too early for the children to be fast asleep on a late summer day. If he was alone, and no giggling children to be heard, that is suspicious. Your scenario got my heart pounding because it explains the shoes kicked off, suitcase at bottom of stairs... if she saw her baby lying their blue, ran up... so that kernel of something true in CW's lies. And then she tried to call 911, he grabbed her phone, and killed her. I hope this is not true and not how it happened. I am sure he is the one who killed all of them, however, MOO.

 

[Amandaaa]

The other reason was they said they had to do interviews for their investigation that had not been completed. It will be very interesting if the defense came back, and asked if the investigations are finished, and the prosecution said no they have not finished. Therefore the defense would think oh my gosh who are they still wanting to interview?

I hope to read the papers filed by the media because their argument seems dead on: the motion to seal is supposed to be filed by the custodian - the coroner, not the prosecution. I noted that as being strange back when the motion was first filed. Because it was done in the context of a pending criminal proceeding, the judge treated it the same as any other motion made by a party - requiring a response from the other side.

But CORA, the open records statute, really has nothing to do with pending proceedings - criminal or otherwise. The statute simply governs access to public documents. The custodian (in this case the coroner) needs to file the motion if they want to hold the document back from being disclosed to the public - and the court will then hold a hearing. You can see reference to the proper “usual” procedure in the court’s second order on this topic - no longer requesting a response from the defense, just scheduling a hearing on the matter.

Under CORA, there is only ONE permissible reason to withhold an otherwise public document - the custodian has to demonstrate serious injury to the public (not to private individuals - to the public). It’s a fairly high burden. The only ones that I’ve seen be successful have been things like columbine - enormous widespread tragedies that really couldn’t have been anticipated. Murders, as horrible as they are, just don’t seem to fit the “public injury” situation.

Autopsy reports are NOT considered “law enforcement” documents - which are treated differently under CORA. It is interesting to see the prosecutor (not the proper party, IMO) try to assert the exception (public injury) for law-enforcement related purposes during the pendency of a criminal proceeding. That rationale (witnesses) seems odd too: a suspect has already been arrested and charged, i’m Not sure that the autopsy report will impact anything - or that the argument can be made under CORA.

It’s interesting stuff, for sure

 

[MsBetsy]

Exactly- why is her name on the affidavit, even redacted, unless she is involved in some way? But someone else made a good point about her being threatened/in danger if her name got out...what if that's why they have the autopsy results sealed- because the autopsy showed that the pattern of bruising around the girls' necks was consistent with a hand size smaller than CW's, ie, a woman's? He says SW did it- no sane person would think that a mother like SW would kill her daughters for any reason- so people would automatically be looking at AP, but without solid evidence to charge AP, and with CW claiming it was SW and not AP, they can't arrest her?

It's a bit Perry Mason-ish haha, but perhaps they're waiting until court, to try to trip him/her up on their testimony? He's already shown he's not a good liar.

(And your comment about mean political comment boards made me laugh!)

She is listed as a witness because she was having an affair with him. We have no indication that she knew about the murders at all, until he was charged. Jmo

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I hope to read the papers filed by the media because their argument seems dead on: the motion to seal is supposed to be filed by the custodian - the coroner, not the prosecution. I noted that as being strange back when the motion was first filed. Because it was done in the context of a pending criminal proceeding, the judge treated it the same as any other motion made by a party - requiring a response from the other side.

But CORA, the open records statute, really has nothing to do with pending proceedings - criminal or otherwise. The statute simply governs access to public documents. The custodian (in this case the coroner) needs to file the motion if they want to hold the document back from being disclosed to the public - and the court will then hold a hearing. You can see reference to the proper “usual” procedure in the court’s second order on this topic - no longer requesting a response from the defense, just scheduling a hearing on the matter.

Under CORA, there is only ONE permissible reason to withhold an otherwise public document - the custodian has to demonstrate serious injury to the public (not to private individuals - to the public). It’s a fairly high burden. The only ones that I’ve seen be successful have been things like columbine - enormous widespread tragedies that really couldn’t have been anticipated. Murders, as horrible as they are, just don’t seem to fit the “public injury” situation.

Autopsy reports are NOT considered “law enforcement” documents - which are treated differently under CORA. It is interesting to see the prosecutor (not the proper party, IMO) try to assert the exception (public injury) for law-enforcement related purposes during the pendency of a criminal proceeding. That rationale (witnesses) seems odd too: a suspect has already been arrested and charged, i’m Not sure that the autopsy report will impact anything - or that the argument can be made under CORA.

It’s interesting stuff, for sure

This post is extremely helpful. Thank you.

 

[Steelhead]

Your scenario makes heartbreaking sense. I had come to believe that he killed their children earlier in the evening. I think if he really was grilling alone at 7:15, that is far too early for the children to be fast asleep on a late summer day. If he was alone, and no giggling children to be heard, that is suspicious. Your scenario got my heart pounding because it explains the shoes kicked off, suitcase at bottom of stairs... if she saw her baby lying their blue, ran up... so that kernel of something true in CW's lies. And then she tried to call 911, he grabbed her phone, and killed her. I hope this is not true and not how it happened. I am sure he is the one who killed all of them, however, MOO.

Or, SW tosses her phone to CW. “Call 911!” CW hides the phone in the couch cushions and goes back for SW.

 

[Serena Angelique]

Yes, if he really thought they were missing he would have said, Bella is supposed to be in school right now, or she missed her first day of kindergarten, or something like that. I had no idea they were killed the day before. I assumed it was the next week too. Maybe he did intend to kill them before school started, and that was the last day he could do it. To think that Bella was excited about school and instead she was murdered is so horrible. I would think SW would have gone straight to bed as she was so tired, and now the idea that he would wake her up to tell her he wanted a separation at 4:00 in the morning on the first day of school is even more ridiculous. Jmo

I have always thought instigating a discussion of separation at 4am was ridiculous, particularly when your wife has just come home from a long trip, (with delays) and you had to leave for work at 5:30 (if he actually did need to leave that early). Adding in the fact that you have a child starting her first day of school the next day, makes this even more ludicrous, unless you have absolutely no sense of decency or timing (even if you don't kill your wife too).

I think the fact that he likely killed his daughter on what would have been her first day of kindergarten is truly so sad and heinous that I don't like to dwell on it much. But the fact that he was wily enough to be misleading about this by indicating that it was supposed to occur "NEXT" week, makes him even more guilty in my eyes.

Again-I was always struck by the fact that he had said "WAS" going to start when she was presumably still missing...as if that were never going to happen. It seemed obvious that they were dead. But maybe he was about to say "Bella WAS going to start school on Monday" which would obviously have not indicated they were dead yet, but he was trying to distance himself from the horrible details of what he had perpetrated.

I also think that it's fair to say that SW would have been looking forward to this as being a momentous occasion as well, to immortalize with pictures and videos, and she would have certainly thought to check on her after she got home.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes I totally agree if Bella looked blue it was from after he killed her, not because he saw her on the monitor. I hate saying this but maybe when he went back in to get her body to take to the oil vat she looked blue to him at that point. I would hope that it haunts him everytime he remembers it.

I do wonder why he chose the baby monitor story. I don't believe it for a second but there's some reason he spoke about the baby monitor.

Yes, I think you are right that he noticed at some point her color was blue so he inserted it into his story. They may have been that color hours after they were dead. Jmo

 

[AbbyG]

And also, regarding the scenario in which SW rushes upstairs because of what she saw on monitor -- do we know when SW last spoke to her children? I imagine her friend knows. Did CW put her off, claim they were sleeping or not available to speak? I don't know why anyone here would want to give this liar and murderer the benefit of the doubt. All MOO, JMO.

 

[pocketaccent]

Since I think most of what he says are bald faced lies, I wonder what little bit of truth the monitors do represent. He wove them into the story of seeing Bella blue, etc, and then during his voluntary media appearances he referred to seeing the girls on the monitors just before going to work on Monday. IE mentioned the monitors twice, woven into the whole tale. I think others have mentioned this too, but there has to be "something" about the monitors. Maybe SW awoke to see HIM strangling the kids on the monitor by her side of the bed, ran over to try to stop him, he kills her, is tired after bagging them in trash bags, lays down to rest and sees the BAGS on the monitors. In some way, monitors are burned into his brain.

I think the monitor represents an alibi. That he wasn't there when Shanann was strangling the babies. He is distancing himself from the crime.

 

[Thepoet]

I've thought a lot about CW's claim that SW killed the girls and he flew into a rage. I've also thought about some of the posts supporting CW's version. I can't make it work, at all.

1. CW had the opportunity to push the panic button, probably more than once, he didn't.
2. CW had the opportunity to call 911, as he raced to the bedroom, he didn't.
3. He should have been yelling at the top of his lungs. He didn't.
4. The natural reaction, for someone in a rage, especially male, is to strike out. He didn't.
5. The natural response would have been to hit SW or push her aside and go to Cece's aid.
He didn't. (I believe he would have said so, if he did.)
6. He should have tried to revive Bella. He didn't (I believe he would have said so, if he did.)
7. At least Cece should have been able to be revived.
8. Rage cools and logic usually prevails. He had the opportunity to see things clearly and call
for help. He didn't.
9. Rage cools and logic usually prevails. He had the opportunity to think and realize that
any hope he had to be believed and for the truth to come out, was to preserve the (crime)
scene and call the police. He didn't.
10. Rage cools and logic usually prevails. He had the opportunity to think things out and
realize hiding bodies, for any reason, is perceived as the act of a guilty person. He didn't.
11. He could have hidden the bodies in a humane way. He didn't.
12. He had the opportunity to tell LE the truth when they met him at the house. He didn't.
13. After a day of processing all the events of the night before and meeting with NUA and LE
he should have been overcome with doubts, fear, and grief that night and his face and
demeaner should have mirrored it the next day. And yet, he next day he was well rested,
clean, and chipper.
14. He knew the truth; he knew they weren't missing and weren't coming back. He knew they
were all dead. He knew LE was involved, he knew the "ball" was rolling. He chose to lie and
to pose and to continue the charade, as a guilty person would do.

If even one or two of the above items were not true, I might, consider his story, consider only, but all of them are true and there can only be one conclusion; he lied and he killed all of them!

 

[Quinquin]

“She is on trial”


I went on rant and didn’t address my original point.

He is on trial. The victims are not. We can never get adequate justice for the deceased. There is a higher power that will take care of that for us. The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of the murders and they will make the case for what they believe occurred and all will have to be proven. If he is truly a psychopath then it shouldn’t be too complex for a jury ie psych profiles along with damning forensics etc. My point is that we should be free to theorize about mitigating factors. The balance is delicate in trying to formulate a case for the accused without coming across as insensitive to the victims. I try to look at these things objectively and to not personalize these crimes. That is for my mental health. I had my first panic attack while watching live coverage of Columbine. I don’t think it serves anyone to try to “live” in this or any tragedy unless you are directly affected ; if you can at all help it. This “detachment “ in no way implies a disregard for a fellow human beings profound suffering. I certainly have had and most definitely will have my own tragedies to come because I am human. The pondering of method , motive , psychological factors, and legal strategy are the reasons that I come on these forums. This is his trial and fortunately, or conversely ,unfortunately, an accused can not be tried in a vacuum. I always hope that fairness and sensitivity can maintained for the victims. As a nursing student years ago I worked at a children’s burn unit. I had to interact with a parent that I sensed was responsible for placing her child in a pot of boiling water. Well, I told my professor that I felt like I was going to “lose it” and I walked out. She later told me about the importantance of objectivity and how my “stall” would be grossly unproductive. Especially for the child before us. She also said my action/inaction are even detrimental to understanding how horrific acts could be prevented in the future.

 

[MsBetsy]

I have always thought instigating a discussion of separation at 4am was ridiculous, particularly when your wife has just come home from a long trip, (with delays) and you had to leave for work at 5:30 (if he actually did need to leave that early). Adding in the fact that you have a child starting her first day of school the next day, makes this even more ludicrous, unless you have absolutely no sense of decency or timing (even if you don't kill your wife too).

I think the fact that he likely killed his daughter on what would have been her first day of kindergarten is truly so sad and heinous that I don't like to dwell on it much. But the fact that he was wily enough to be misleading about this by indicating that it was supposed to occur "NEXT" week, makes him even more guilty in my eyes.

Again-I was always struck by the fact that he had said "WAS" going to start when she was presumably still missing...as if that were never going to happen. It seemed obvious that they were dead. But maybe he was about to say "Bella WAS going to start school on Monday" which would obviously have not indicated they were dead yet, but he was trying to distance himself from the horrible details of what he had perpetrated.

I also think that it's fair to say that SW would have been looking forward to this as being a momentous occasion as well, to immortalize with pictures and videos, and she would have certainly thought to check on her after she got home.

Yes, about the last part, I also would think she would have her clothes and the backpack out with her snack in it as well. Even I did that everyday, and I'm not nearly as organized as Shanann was...

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I hope to read the papers filed by the media because their argument seems dead on: the motion to seal is supposed to be filed by the custodian - the coroner, not the prosecution. I noted that as being strange back when the motion was first filed. Because it was done in the context of a pending criminal proceeding, the judge treated it the same as any other motion made by a party - requiring a response from the other side.

But CORA, the open records statute, really has nothing to do with pending proceedings - criminal or otherwise. The statute simply governs access to public documents. The custodian (in this case the coroner) needs to file the motion if they want to hold the document back from being disclosed to the public - and the court will then hold a hearing. You can see reference to the proper “usual” procedure in the court’s second order on this topic - no longer requesting a response from the defense, just scheduling a hearing on the matter.

Under CORA, there is only ONE permissible reason to withhold an otherwise public document - the custodian has to demonstrate serious injury to the public (not to private individuals - to the public). It’s a fairly high burden. The only ones that I’ve seen be successful have been things like columbine - enormous widespread tragedies that really couldn’t have been anticipated. Murders, as horrible as they are, just don’t seem to fit the “public injury” situation.

Autopsy reports are NOT considered “law enforcement” documents - which are treated differently under CORA. It is interesting to see the prosecutor (not the proper party, IMO) try to assert the exception (public injury) for law-enforcement related purposes during the pendency of a criminal proceeding. That rationale (witnesses) seems odd too: a suspect has already been arrested and charged, i’m Not sure that the autopsy report will impact anything - or that the argument can be made under CORA.

It’s interesting stuff, for sure

Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood as because in this document, it specifically States the prosecution is the custodian.

Not the medical examiner?

I guess you are saying that is incorrect or I am misinterpreting it. Thank you

"The prosecution is the “official custodian” as defined in C.R.S. 24-72-202(2). Coroner’s autopsy reports on homicide victims are public records subject to disclosure pursuant to the Colorado Open Records Act (“CORA”)"

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...ict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/ORDER (C14).pdf

 

[MassGuy]

I think that when we see these autopsy reports, we may see people “come down off the fence.”

Most of us see the complete disregard with which CW treated the bodies, especially those of his children, as absolutely appalling. This fact alone, to the exclusion of everything else, makes his story sound ridiculous.

If the autopsy reports show that he had to damage the bodies of one or both of his children when he dumped them in those oil tanks, it will be even more damaging to his image, and make his appalling actions, seem even more heinous.

 

[Amandaaa]

Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood as because in this document, it specifically States the prosecution is the custodian.

Not the medical examiner?

I guess you are saying that is incorrect or I am misinterpreting it. Thank you

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/ORDER (C14).pdf

See screenshot where I misinterpreted when it said the prosecution was the custodian.

View attachment 149846

The prosecution filed the motion - but it was supposed to be filed by the custodian of the document, which should be the coroner
However the judge either did not notice or did not see a big deal about that fact - so he issued orders that didn’t address whether the prosecution was the proper party to file and whether the criminal proceeding was the proper place to file

It appears the media is now raising both of those issues

 

[human]

If it was premeditated, then he would have killed SW as soon as he could. It could be he waited until she fell asleep.I would imagine it would be quickly as traveling is tiring . I don’t think she could sleep on the plane nor in the airport waiting area. Perhaps she belonged to a VIP lounge or purchased access while she was stuck there? Then she could get some rest.

Anyway, I think if it was premeditated, he would have some plans even though they had to be changed when the three hour delay happened. However, I do not think he would be driving earlier even if there was not the delay.

If it was premeditated, what did he do between two and five AM? Certainly no taking care of business.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The prosecution filed the motion - but it was supposed to be filed by the custodian of the document, which should be the coroner
However the judge either did not notice or did not see a big deal about that fact - so he issued orders that didn’t address whether the prosecution was the proper party to file and whether the criminal proceeding was the proper place to file

It appears the media is now raising both of those issues

Oh, I interpreted differently when it was said...

The prosecution is the “official custodian” as defined in C.R.S. 24-72-202(2). Coroner’s autopsy reports on homicide victims are public records subject to disclosure pursuant to the Colorado Open Records Act (“CORA”)

..... so what you were saying is the court is incorrect and can be something the defense comes up against!

Interesting!

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...ict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/ORDER (C14).pdf