Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #41

[Starkville]

Just my own issue, but I’m still stuck on The lack of bruising or any kind of injuries on CW. There was that little red spot on his neck, but that’s it. Also, in the porch video, he was holding his arms close to his body, one in particular. Man, my eyes were glued to that one motionless arm because I was sure he injured it during the murders. Then at the end, he gestures with it, seemingly painlessly. So maybe it was just a defensive posture or “holding himself together”.

And this is my long-winded way of wondering if he had drugged the kids and Shanann, so he could kill them without resistance. Even if he ambushed shanann from behind, she would still struggle and inflict SOME kind of injury.

JMO

I suppose we have to wait for toxicology.

 

[human]

CL didn't have twins or quints. He had a 2 year old, 3 year old, and 4 year old.

Obviously, lol, this is not clear.

The cases are like they are twins, triplets, whatever. Not sure how many cases there are of guys with almost the identical scenario.

Longo, Coleman, Entwhistle are not like the father who tskes out his family because of job loss or whatever, The father who thinks that they cannot survive without him.

No. These other guys hava almost an identical story with their individual twists

 

[human]

I'm so glad you took the time to read the article (IIRC, I think it was gitana1 who first shared it here) and watch the Real Crime videos.

We've been saying for 41 threads now, that the fact there were NO SIGNS fits with the profile of a family annihilator and is one of the biggest reasons that people can't believe it when this happens. It would make it oh so much clearer if people would take the time to review some of these cases. It's like a light bulb goes off in your head!

MOO

So many cases, so many things to do in real life.

Great that people put easy to read info on here now. Thanks

 

[PommyMommy]

Just my own issue, but I’m still stuck on The lack of bruising or any kind of injuries on CW. There was that little red spot on his neck, but that’s it. Also, in the porch video, he was holding his arms close to his body, one in particular. Man, my eyes were glued to that one motionless arm because I was sure he injured it during the murders. Then at the end, he gestures with it, seemingly painlessly. So maybe it was just a defensive posture or “holding himself together”.

And this is my long-winded way of wondering if he had drugged the kids and Shanann, so he could kill them without resistance. Even if he ambushed shanann from behind, she would still struggle and inflict SOME kind of injury.

JMO

I suppose we have to wait for toxicology.

We don't know that there weren't some hidden injuries, though. Underneath his clothing, perhaps? It wouldn't surprise me really, if there weren't any bruises or scratches, because I tend to think he caught her by surprise - either from behind, or he pinned her down (including her arms). In either of those instances, it is unlikely that she could have fought back.
MOO

 

[Serena Angelique]

These guys are all so much alike that it's a little freaky.

Christian Longo described what it was like to strangle his youngest child (age 3). He had already strangled his wife and said it was so horrible to strangle his little girl that he couldn’t do it again to his remaining 2 children.

Instead, he tied weights onto their feet and dropped their sleeping bodies off a bridge into freezing water while they were still alive. Just so he wouldn’t have to strangle them too.

Then he claimed when he was caught that his wife had done that and then he had killed her and her youngest in a rage. Some people actually believed him!

But this case scenario never makes sense which is why CW’s story is so wholly implausible. I too wish people would look at these cases with FA who accuse their spouses of “making them do it” because the mothers murdered their kids first. It’s getting old, and I am tired of having to give any credence to such fabrications all because of the .00001 possibility that it MIGHT have happened that way.

 

[PommyMommy]

So many cases, so many things to do in real life.

Great that people put easy to read info on here now. Thanks

Well, that is a valid point! It does require having enough time to read through them.

 

[gitana1]

I found a Real Crime show on youtube last night on Neil and Rachel (and Lilly Rose, their 9 month old daughter) Entwistle. Shout out to PommyMommy for the article about him! I found it very "on point" for this case. **Note if you read my post last night about Chris Coleman, I mistakenly referred to James List when I meant to say Christian Longo (had my FAs mixed up for a moment - what is it with FAs named Chris by the way??).

So many parallels with CW IMO with the Entwistle case. For those unfamiliar (I was): About 30 year old British guy with an American wife. He was quiet, shy, well liked, educated, and good looking. She was a teacher who loved kids and was considered very outgoing and full of life. In this case, as a computer savvy guy of the times (early 2000s), he is the one who creates and posts pictures online on a family web site of their life and travels and has a tag line of "happy family" for the pics with their new daughter on the site. Meet in England and move to Massachusetts. Her father bonds with him and teaches him how to shoot guns at his club (big mistake). He point blank shoots her and the 9 month old daughter while she is holding the baby in bed. He then drives to the airport (Boston) and flies home to England to stay with his parents, never reporting a thing. When authorities find his wife and child on a wellness check days later, they get ahold of him by phone and he says he just found them like that and in a state of shock, left. His story changes multiple times over the years. First he says he drove toward her parents house to get a gun to shoot himself after he "found" them like that because he was at a store when it happened, but no one was home so he left for the UK. He was asked on the phone call with police how he knew they were dead and he said he saw a gun shot burn hole on the baby's jumper but didn't see anything on the wife. So he just assumed she had been shot, too. Later, he is arrested (before it looks like he was about to go on the run after staying with his parents) and extradited. At trial...shocker...comes a new story by the defense after it has been figured out her father's gun was used in the crime (so how did a stranger do it?). Now he says he had found the gun on the bed and blames his wife - his wife had shot herself and the baby. To protect her reputation for being a murderer and committing suicide, he says took the gun and left. At trial they prove she probably couldn't have easily shot her baby (the bullet went through the baby and into her plus another in her own head) even though there is gun residue on the front and back of her hands (a point people, including his parents and brother, cling to to this day as evidence of his innocence). No gun residue is found in his car that he drove at some point afterward to the airport. He does not testify. Unsurprisingly, like all FA fathers, he has a SECRET LIFE. He lied about proceeds from his old job and was living on credit cards in America while living the high life. He was trying to produce hard core porn sites and frequently trolled for escorts online. Was even online after the murders trolling for escorts on his computer (at the house). Her family and friends felt re-victimized by him blaming it all on his wife and throwing mud at her at trial. Also, no surprise, a fangirl who wrote to him after trial years later was convinced of his innocence until he wrote her of seeing the look in his wife's eyes when she pulled the trigger and his daughter call out in pain, hence putting himself now in the room at the time of the killings even though he had always maintained he wasn't home. Now, she is convinced he is guilty after all. Anyway, amazing parallels IMO, no?

-Devoted husband and dad.
-No criminal record or history of mental health issues.
-Lack of previous strong romantic relationships.
-Not a lot of close male friends.
-An introvert or antisocial.
-Secret life (affair, financial issues, lies about identity/job/etc).
-Fake reaction or bizarre reaction to death of family.
-Consciousness of guilt behavior (trying to cover involvement, escape, etc).

Yup. Check check check.

The only thing missing here is evidence of an enmeshed family of origin who defiantly and angrily defend him.

BTW, Entwistle actually shot his little baby girl in the stomach, leaving her to slowly die. It's one of the most painful deaths there are.

 

[Seattle1]

Not sure if this has been posted yet - but I thought it was a good discussion of the issue
Potential release of Christopher Watts case autopsies is focus of conflicting arguments

Yes, and it's also a good discussion of issue. Don't imagine a hearing if required by defense will not be prior to 19 Nov hearing.

 

[gitana1]

I'm so glad you took the time to read the article (IIRC, I think it was gitana1 who first shared it here) and watch the Real Crime videos.

We've been saying for 41 threads now, that the fact there were NO SIGNS fits with the profile of a family annihilator and is one of the biggest reasons that people can't believe it when this happens. It would make it oh so much clearer if people would take the time to review some of these cases. It's like a light bulb goes off in your head!

MOO

Yeah it's very strange. Family annihilators who are male typically don't have mental health histories and aren't psychotic or anything when they commit the crimes. Family annihilators who are female, however, often do have signs of mental health issues, bizarre, out of control behavior prior to the murders, etc.

It's a stark difference.

 

[Serena Angelique]

I think those were really weird, general comments about his children. Like "Look what a good dad I am! I know what cartoon characters my kids like!" When, in reality, those are very famous cartoon characters and most toddlers I know are into them. Almost everything he said, other than the "motherly" and "rampage" comments were general things that could be applied to many kids that age. Telling them to eat their supper, that one had a Sofia the First chair, etc. That whole interview made me feel like he didn't really know his kids at all so he was pulling out superficial traits.

I don’t think he knew his kids at all from his rote comments. I tend to think he saw them both as extensions or small attachments of Shannan Watts, which enabled him to kill them too.

 

[gitana1]

I am thinking of some men I know, narcissistic, and as I can guess, with problems in youth, but who managed to heal and become successful. They love, sometimes adore, their kids because they view them as "mini-me"s. And they love kids regardless of their feelings for the women.

I wonder what was the defect in CW's ego that prevented him from loving his kids.

He might have been quite enmeshed with his kids and in fact viewed them as mini mes. And when he killed them he killed a part of himself he hated.

Or, he hated his wife or others who adored the kids, much more than he loved his children. A simmering hatred and rage against those who subsumed his identity. So he took what mattered most to them and thus got revenge for being annihilated himself.

 

[gitana1]

Thank you! So chances are, he did turn them on that fateful night. At least they were put to sleep.

Yes except noone dies in their sleep when they're suffocated or strangled. They wake up and struggle in terror to survive.

 

[riolove77]

I could NOT have said this better myself! It really does make sense of it all. Wouldn't it be nice if it were required reading/watching/listening before sleuthing? I should have done this a while ago and only found the time because things are slow right now with no new info released. Thanks again for making these comparisons! Do we know of any others that fit this closely with this case besides (in order IMO of how close it fits): Entwistle, Longo, Peterson, and Coleman?

I'd add Michael Blagg to this list. His daughter Abby's case was mine when I was at NCMEC. He was really something else too. His wife's body was eventually found in the landfill but Abby was never found. Some people also speculated that he had buried her elsewhere in a grave because he wanted her to be somewhere clean and not in the landfill with her mother. I never believed that; he killed her, why would he be worried where she was buried? I just think she was never found because she was so small. It was pure luck that Jennifer was found...

 

[whisperOFwings]

I forgot about the Bubble Guppies/Princess chair comment. That didn't make any sense either. Was something pink taken out of the house along with the yellow thing (possibly emoji bean bag) seen in the bags? Could it have been the princess chair?

I think Chris got some of the descriptions of the girls personalities from things Shanann* or other people had said before. The "mothering type" comment strikes me as something a mother might say about her oldest girl but it comes off sounding strange when he says it. JMO.

Here are some videos of Bella with a pink chair I think might be the "princess chair" he was referring to:
Shanann Watts
Shanann Watts



*ETA: Shanann called Bella "motherly like me" in this video caption: Shanann Watts

Bolded by me...
Hi Gardener, yes there is something pink at the top of the bag. It looks light pink??
From here...
Photojournalist for Denver7, KMGH-TV in Denver, CO.
James Dougherty on Twitter
And here...
Christopher Watts is denied bail in the murder of his wife and young children | Daily Mail Online

 

[Gardener1850]

Symbolic and loving? Wow that’s pretty sick. Was that from a “devils advocate” talking head or a guest comment on AB? Even if he didn’t kill them (which he did) putting them in oil tanks is the opposite of loving and I can’t imagine what’s symbolic about it. I can’t imagine anyone thinking those babies being in crude oil was in any way a positive thing. This is a perfect example of bending over backgrounds to make every excuse for this man.

I'm not sure where it originated but it was being discussed here sometime before we found out the 8 inch hatch size. A few might have changed their minds after realizing CW might have had to contort their little bodies and break bones to get them into the tanks. And I agree, it takes a sick mind to try to make that into a loving gesture.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Christian Longo described what it was like to strangle his youngest child (age 3). He had already strangled his wife and said it was so horrible to strangle his little girl that he couldn’t do it again to his remaining 2 children.

Instead, he tied weights onto their feet and dropped their sleeping bodies off a bridge into freezing water while they were still alive. Just so he wouldn’t have to strangle them too.

Then he claimed when he was caught that his wife had done that and then he had killed her and her youngest in a rage. Some people actually believed him!

But this case scenario never makes sense which is why CW’s story is so wholly implausible. I too wish people would look at these cases with FA who accuse their spouses of “making them do it” because the mothers murdered their kids first. It’s getting old, and I am tired of having to give any credence to such fabrications all because of the .00001 possibility that it MIGHT have happened that way.

This ^^ and it's very evil to speak lies on the dead.

 

[Thepoet]

We don't know that there weren't some hidden injuries, though. Underneath his clothing, perhaps? It wouldn't surprise me really, if there weren't any bruises or scratches, because I tend to think he caught her by surprise - either from behind, or he pinned her down (including her arms). In either of those instances, it is unlikely that she could have fought back.
MOO

I'm thinking about them being drugged because I can't figure out a way that he could strangle SW without his arms being vulnerable to scratches, and she would scratch! With her long, acrylic nails, she would have left marks! I have over ten years of martial arts training and I can only come up with two scenarios; he was wearing layers of clothing (sweatshirts?) and gloves or he used a ligature with his knee in her back. Conceivably with a ligature, and his longer arms, he could have kept out of reach. I don't recall reading that he had any martial arts background. Someone being strangled is going to attack the hands, arms, and/or face of their attacker. In the interview videos there are no marks on his face, hands or arms. If he jumped on her in bed, while she was sleeping, there would still be an adrenaline surge and momentary self-defense. It needs more thought.

 

[gitana1]

Sorry to quote from the same article again, but the similarities are just so extraordinary.

"Some men are good at portraying the role of a loving husband. As long as marriage suits their needs, that's fine," he said.

"They love people for what they supply and once those people no longer fulfill their needs, they become expendable."

He added: "This is not a disease of the mind. It's a disorder of the character. They are bad not mad, crafty not crazy, and when the wife and child is no longer needed and seen as a liability, they will either leave or kill."

Keith Ablow, a psychiatrist who wrote a best-selling book about Scott Peterson, who murdered his pregnant wife, said Entwistle may have feared his wife was about to find out about his financial problems or his obsession with internet sex.

"The dangerous times to be around people like that is when they feel their delicately constructed artificial personas are dissolving and they are going to be revealed as vulnerable, unlikeable and even shameful," he said. "They can then feel as though they are dying or under attack."
Neil Entwistle: A manipulative sociopath who fooled everyone

That's the author I read who did an incredible analysis of scott Peterson. How could this smiling, perfect golden boy who has so many people testify for him and as to what a good person he was, a man with no criminal history or mental health issues, how could he murder his wife and unborn son for an affair?

As Laci's mother wailed, "Divorce is always an option."

Not for some. Cleary not for Chris.

Ablow's psychological expose is very intense and interesting. Peterson's mother was orphaned at two after her father was murdered. She gave up a couple children for adoption. Barely kept another. Then she Scott's father. They combined their families. She had scott. The perfect golden boy. A baby who never cried. Always smiled. Ablow hypothesizes that he had to always smile and never cry or he would be rejected by his annihilating mother.

What happens to create family annihilators? Why is divorce not an option for people like Scott Peterson, Neil Entwistle, Christopher Coleman, Chris Watts?

It appears there is this narcissistic panic that the mask will slip. That people will see they aren't perfect. And that could combine with rage against the people who created them or trapped them or "made" them live a life they now hate.

Something in them makes murder much more appealing than the appearance of imperfection.

I suspect it's a combination of rage and fear.

 

[Davia18]

Just my own issue, but I’m still stuck on The lack of bruising or any kind of injuries on CW. There was that little red spot on his neck, but that’s it. Also, in the porch video, he was holding his arms close to his body, one in particular. Man, my eyes were glued to that one motionless arm because I was sure he injured it during the murders. Then at the end, he gestures with it, seemingly painlessly. So maybe it was just a defensive posture or “holding himself together”.

And this is my long-winded way of wondering if he had drugged the kids and Shanann, so he could kill them without resistance. Even if he ambushed shanann from behind, she would still struggle and inflict SOME kind of injury.

JMO

I suppose we have to wait for toxicology.

IMO the girls where probably easy especially if used a pillow, they were tiny girls. Hence the pillow cases in the trash. Just my opinion though. Also I feel he may have perhaps used a stun gun or something similar on SW. Another factor will be if strangled her from behind or was over her. I have said this to many times to count on this thread but I have been there and I have been strangled. My ex would straddle me and put his arms straight and locked, I could not reach his face, I could only buck and try and pry his hands off or attempt to kick him and knee him in the back. So it's all going to depend on how he strangled her but my guess he did something prior also I believe her pregnancy, exhaustion and sickness played a factor. I don't feel SW even had a chance

 

[PommyMommy]

Symbolic and loving? Wow that’s pretty sick. Was that from a “devils advocate” talking head or a guest comment on AB? Even if he didn’t kill them (which he did) putting them in oil tanks is the opposite of loving and I can’t imagine what’s symbolic about it. I can’t imagine anyone thinking those babies being in crude oil was in any way a positive thing. This is a perfect example of bending over backgrounds to make every excuse for this man.

I'm not sure where it originated but it was being discussed here sometime before we found out the 8 inch hatch size. A few might have changed their minds after realizing CW might have had to contort their little bodies and break bones to get them into the tanks. And I agree, it takes a sick mind to try to make that into a loving gesture.

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #26