Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #41

[kkdj]

Just my own issue, but I’m still stuck on The lack of bruising or any kind of injuries on CW. There was that little red spot on his neck, but that’s it. Also, in the porch video, he was holding his arms close to his body, one in particular. Man, my eyes were glued to that one motionless arm because I was sure he injured it during the murders. Then at the end, he gestures with it, seemingly painlessly. So maybe it was just a defensive posture or “holding himself together”.

And this is my long-winded way of wondering if he had drugged the kids and Shanann, so he could kill them without resistance. Even if he ambushed shanann from behind, she would still struggle and inflict SOME kind of injury.

JMO

I suppose we have to wait for toxicology.

Maybe there were more marks under his clothing or in his mouth.

 

[Seattle1]

He might have been quite enmeshed with his kids and in fact viewed them as mini mes. And when he killed them he killed a part of himself he hated.

Or, he hated his wife or others who adored the kids, much more than he loved his children. A simmering hatred and rage against those who subsumed his identity. So he took what mattered most to them and thus got revenge for being annihilated himself.

I'm still looking forward to hear more from our VI professional whether or not CW killing of daughters easier for revenge (knowing they will become and/or represent wives and mothers).

 

[gitana1]

I could NOT have said this better myself! It really does make sense of it all. Wouldn't it be nice if it were required reading/watching/listening before sleuthing? I should have done this a while ago and only found the time because things are slow right now with no new info released. Thanks again for making these comparisons! Do we know of any others that fit this closely with this case besides (in order IMO of how close it fits): Entwistle, Longo, Peterson, and Coleman?

Yes. Pommymommy had a whole list. Michael Blagg is another. There are a ton.

 

[riolove77]

IMO the girls where probably easy especially if used a pillow, they were tiny girls. Hence the pillow cases in the trash. Just my opinion though. Also I feel he may have perhaps used a stun gun or something similar on SW. Another factor will be if strangled her from behind or was over her. I have said this to many times to count on this thread but I have been there and I have been strangled. My ex would straddle me and put his arms straight and locked, I could not reach his face, I could only buck and try and pry his hands off or attempt to kick him and knee him in the back. So it's all going to depend on how he strangled her but my guess he did something prior also I believe her pregnancy, exhaustion and sickness played a factor. I don't feel SW even had a chance

I'm so sorry you went through this, and am so glad you got out of it. I often wonder about SW's last thoughts when she was being strangled. She must have been so confused and felt so betrayed. She also was likely so horrified at the thought of her children. I can't even imagine. The poor girl.

 

[PommyMommy]

I'm thinking about them being drugged because I can't figure out a way that he could strangle SW without his arms being vulnerable to scratches, and she would scratch! With her long, acrylic nails, she would have left marks! I have over ten years of martial arts training and I can only come up with two scenarios; he was wearing layers of clothing (sweatshirts?) and gloves or he used a ligature with his knee in her back. Conceivably with a ligature, and his longer arms, he could have kept out of reach. I don't recall reading that he had any martial arts background. Someone being strangled is going to attack the hands, arms, and/or face of their attacker. In the interview videos there are no marks on his face, hands or arms. If he jumped on her in bed, while she was sleeping, there would still be an adrenaline surge and momentary self-defense. It needs more thought.

It's a possibility they were drugged.

BBM
Yes, they will, but they won't be able to if their arms are pinned down. If SW was on her back and CW straddled her with his legs pinning down her arms, he could have rendered her unconscious in seconds.

MOO

 

[LittleFleurDeLys]

Just my own issue, but I’m still stuck on The lack of bruising or any kind of injuries on CW. There was that little red spot on his neck, but that’s it. Also, in the porch video, he was holding his arms close to his body, one in particular. Man, my eyes were glued to that one motionless arm because I was sure he injured it during the murders. Then at the end, he gestures with it, seemingly painlessly. So maybe it was just a defensive posture or “holding himself together”.

And this is my long-winded way of wondering if he had drugged the kids and Shanann, so he could kill them without resistance. Even if he ambushed shanann from behind, she would still struggle and inflict SOME kind of injury.

JMO

I suppose we have to wait for toxicology.

I thought this "red spot" on his neck looked like either a hickey or a "shallow" bite wound from a small mouth (Celeste?). But it's very unpleasent to think about it... and the location doesn't make so much sense to me. Otherwise I was wondering the same.
To strangle somebody you need to be very close to this person and I believe it is more likely that if somebody fights the attacker while being strangled (at least with bare hands) it will rather leave injuries on him/her than it will not.

 

[Thepoet]

Wh

That's the author I read who did an incredible analysis of scott Peterson. How could this smiling, perfect golden boy who has so many people testify for him and as to what a good person he was, a man with no criminal history or mental health issues, how could he murder his wife and unborn son for an affair?

As Laci's mother wailed, "Divorce is always an option."

Not for some. Cleary not for Chris.

Ablow's psychological expose is very intense and interesting. Peterson's mother was orphaned at two after her father was murdered. She gave up a couple children for adoption. Barely kept another. Then she Scott's father. They combined their families. She had scott. The perfect golden boy. A baby who never cried. Always smiled. Ablow hypothesizes that he had to always smile and never cry or he would be rejected by his annihilating mother.

What happens to create family annihilators? Why is divorce not an option for people like Scott Peterson, Neil Entwistle, Christopher Coleman, Chris Watts?

It appears there is this narcissistic panic that the mask will slip. That people will see they aren't perfect. And that could combine with rage against the people who created them or trapped them or "made" them live a life they now hate.

Something in them makes murder much more appealing than the appearance of imperfection.

I suspect it's a combination of rage and fear.

I agree with you that it's a combination of rage and fear, and probably a desire for revenge against the person(s) they blame for all their problems and for denying them (FA) what they deserve!

 

[Gardener1850]

And he referred to one of them as a "troublemaker". That seemed weird (IMHO) for a father with a missing family to say. Just didn't sit right with me.

You're right, for some reason the "troublemaker" part was left out of the Heavy article I quoted earlier. Here it is in People:

“Celeste, she’s just a ball of energy, I call her ‘Rampage’ because she’s got just two speeds: go or she’s sleeping. And she’s always the troublemaker, she’s always the one just yelling at you,” he said. “And Bella, she’s the more calm, cautious, mothering type. She’s more like me, she’s more calm. But Celeste has definitely got her mom’s personality to where she’s always just gung-ho, ready to go.”
'I Am Living in a Nightmare': Husband Gave Interviews a Day Before Arrest in Family's Slayings

It sounds like something Shanann would say in a joking tone when Celeste was being a little bad (like when she climbed up on the bathroom sink to drink water from the faucet) but he's saying it with an even tone as if that is seriously how he thinks of his kids.

 

[kkdj]

I wonder what the investigators will find on CW's computer re murderers, getting away with murder, different styles of murdering, how long it takes to strangle to death etc. If any of it was looked up it will show planning and premeditation. However, true premeditation can happen in an instant as we know but I would like to know if he planned this out and for how long.

 

[Best of What's Around]

IMO the girls where probably easy especially if used a pillow, they were tiny girls. Hence the pillow cases in the trash. Just my opinion though. Also I feel he may have perhaps used a stun gun or something similar on SW. Another factor will be if strangled her from behind or was over her. I have said this to many times to count on this thread but I have been there and I have been strangled. My ex would straddle me and put his arms straight and locked, I could not reach his face, I could only buck and try and pry his hands off or attempt to kick him and knee him in the back. So it's all going to depend on how he strangled her but my guess he did something prior also I believe her pregnancy, exhaustion and sickness played a factor. I don't feel SW even had a chance

My goodness, I am so very sorry that you ever had to go through that. I hope he has somehow paid in life for it. Your experience is invaluable here. Thank you for shedding light (it must be painful).

 

[MassGuy]

I wonder what the investigators will find on CW's computer re murderers, getting away with murder, different styles of murdering, how long it takes to strangle to death etc. If any of it was looked up it will show planning and premeditation. However, true premeditation can happen in an instant as we know but I would like to know if he planned this out and for how long.

I think they will find a trove of information. Whether they find anything that indicates he was thinking about this for a long time, remains to be seen. But at the very least, I think they’ll find trolling for, or interaction with, multiple sexual partners.

They’ll learn a lot about this guy for sure. Maybe more than they want to.

 

[Thepoet]

It's a possibility they were drugged.

BBM
Yes, they will, but they won't be able to if their arms are pinned down. If SW was on her back and CW straddled her with his legs pinning down her arms, he could have rendered her unconscious in seconds.

MOO

Very good point about the arms being pinned by legs. Hadn't considered that. I'm going to think about it because a bed isn't a stable surface and there will almost, always be an adrenaline rush. I also believe SW was a fighter. Still, what you describe makes sense. So horrifying!

 

[human]

That's the author I read who did an incredible analysis of scott Peterson. How could this smiling, perfect golden boy who has so many people testify for him and as to what a good person he was, a man with no criminal history or mental health issues, how could he murder his wife and unborn son for an affair?

As Laci's mother wailed, "Divorce is always an option."

Not for some. Cleary not for Chris.

Ablow's psychological expose is very intense and interesting. Peterson's mother was orphaned at two after her father was murdered. She gave up a couple children for adoption. Barely kept another. Then she Scott's father. They combined their families. She had scott. The perfect golden boy. A baby who never cried. Always smiled. Ablow hypothesizes that he had to always smile and never cry or he would be rejected by his annihilating mother.

What happens to create family annihilators? Why is divorce not an option for people like Scott Peterson, Neil Entwistle, Christopher Coleman, Chris Watts?

It appears there is this narcissistic panic that the mask will slip. That people will see they aren't perfect. And that could combine with rage against the people who created them or trapped them or "made" them live a life they now hate.

Something in them makes murder much more appealing than the appearance of imperfection.

I suspect it's a combination of rage and fear.

Interesting re Scott P. Hiding his self. Makes sense.

Any info like that on any of the other killers?

Infants learn to quit crying when no one answers their cries. It used to be, and still is with some people, thought that babies should not be responded to. It spoils them.

The interactions babies learn are very interesting. There are many studies about parental interaction even at the smallest levels of eye movements.

I wonder if anyone will study the FA so there are more clues to pathology.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

Maybe there were more marks under his clothing or in his mouth.

I feel like if he went after her in a rage like he says while she was actively strangling CeCe then he should definitely have defense marks on him. They would have both been in a rage and it would have been sudden and manic and a free for all. If he doesn’t, it leads me to think he may have done it while she was sleeping or in a more vulnerable position like from behind during a sneak attack. If he did it suddenly from behind I would still think he would have nail marks at least on his hands and maybe face. That’s why I think it’s more likely he sat on her while she was sleeping and her arms were pinned down. But yes we don’t know if he has injuries under his clothing.

 

[Davia18]

I'm so sorry you went through this, and am so glad you got out of it. I often wonder about SW's last thoughts when she was being strangled. She must have been so confused and felt so betrayed. She also was likely so horrified at the thought of her children. I can't even imagine. The poor girl.

If I had to guess her only thought was the girls and Nico. You really don't worry about yourself but very much please don't let the kids see this. Luckily you do pass out pretty quickly but everything does seem slow motion
The only comfort in all this, is I 100% believe SW is with her babies right now.

 

[Serena Angelique]

I think they will find a trove of information. Whether they find anything that indicates he was thinking about this for a long time, remains to be seen. But at the very least, I think they’ll find trolling for, or interaction with, multiple sexual partners.

They’ll learn a lot about this guy for sure. Maybe more than they want to.

I tend to think the fact that he erased his Facebook profile made him aware that he might need to be careful about looking things up on his computer, but he also seems a little naive and may have actually given himself away through his web history.

I also think he may have had 2 phones or a few devices to use for clandestine dalliances which he may have kept from SW because she seems to have had access to at least his phone from her videos.

 

[MassGuy]

I thought this "red spot" on his neck looked like either a hickey or a "shallow" bite wound from a small mouth (Celeste?). But it's very unpleasent to think about it... and the location doesn't make so much sense to me. Otherwise I was wondering the same.
To strangle somebody you need to be very close to this person and I believe it is more likely that if somebody fights the attacker while being strangled (at least with bare hands) it will rather leave injuries on him/her than it will not.

Any marks on his body will obviously draw scrutiny, especially with the obvious implications here.

It really could be present from any number of innocuous reasons though. Razor burn, mosquito bite, pimple, I mean there are any number of reasons why that mark could have been there.

Scott Peterson was able to kill his pregnant wife, and he apparently didn’t have a mark on his body.

 

[Seattle1]

You're right, for some reason the "troublemaker" part was left out of the Heavy article I quoted earlier. Here it is in People:

“Celeste, she’s just a ball of energy, I call her ‘Rampage’ because she’s got just two speeds: go or she’s sleeping. And she’s always the troublemaker, she’s always the one just yelling at you,” he said. “And Bella, she’s the more calm, cautious, mothering type. She’s more like me, she’s more calm. But Celeste has definitely got her mom’s personality to where she’s always just gung-ho, ready to go.”
'I Am Living in a Nightmare': Husband Gave Interviews a Day Before Arrest in Family's Slayings

It sounds like something Shanann would say in a joking tone when Celeste was being a little bad (like when she climbed up on the bathroom sink to drink water from the faucet) but he's saying it with an even tone as if that is seriously how he thinks of his kids.

CW required child #1 for society (i.e., favorable and she's like me); child #2 is nothing more than surplus. It should be noted that these are CW's descriptions of his children after they're dead (when missing to media).

 

[MassGuy]

I tend to think the fact that he erased his Facebook profile made him aware that he might need to be careful about looking things up on his computer, but he also seems a little naive and may have actually given himself away through his web history.

I also think he may have had 2 phones or a few devices that he may have kept from SW because she seems to have had access to at least his phone from her videos.

He could have been very careful, but data can still be recovered.

If it ever existed, it can still potentially be found. His arrogance could really hurt him in this regard, as it’s possible that he never thought he’d have to turn over his devices in the first place.

 

[Davia18]

I feel like if he went after her in a rage like he says while she was actively strangling CeCe then he should definitely have defense marks on him. They would have both been in a rage and it would have been sudden and manic and a free for all. If he doesn’t, it leads me to think he may have done it while she was sleeping or in a more vulnerable position like from behind during a sneak attack. If he did it suddenly from behind I would still think he would have nail marks at least on his hands and maybe face. That’s why I think it’s more likely he sat on her while she was sleeping and her arms were pinned down. But yes we don’t know if he has injuries under his clothing.

I 100% agree, if his story is true he would have marks all over. She seemed like a very protective mother and your instinct is to FIGHT and fight like hell.

 

[flourish]

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #26

Did that idea really only originate from me? I mean, I didn't hear it anywhere else first but I can't possibly be the only person to consider it.

To be clear, though, I'm not saying that I THINK it's reasonable or loving or symbolic, I'm suggesting it MAY HAVE BEEN for CW.