Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #47

[MsBetsy]

No I can't.

To me that sounds like they can't admit they were wrong. That level of imagination, and the lying about Santa comment too, isn't coming from a healthy mind.

MOO

I think that's exactly it. To be so intent on making her look bad that one has to resort to being completely irrational is beyond my understanding. The only explanation that makes sense is that this perception is based on jealousy or a hatred towards the " type" of person they perceive her to be. I can't see any other reason for it. Although I have never read any of it myself, what I have heard seems so irrational. But I did see for myself the videos that were used as examples to "prove" Shanann was this horrible, controlling, even abusive wife, and it was just so far from reality that I just could not understand it. I found it very alarming and discouraging. I would like to think that this is just a small group compared to the majority and like you say, comes from an unhealthy mind.

 

[MsBetsy]

Great podcast! I am so thankful I found this site. Intelligent discussion, open minded yet able to follow where the evidence leads.

Yes! Haven't listened yet but thanks to Judge Judi have read some great stuff so far. I'm very interested in the family dynamics and in CW's childhood. Hope to read about it one day in a book. Although I do feel badly about his family background being exposed, unfortunately their son has put them in this position. Jmo

 

[JudgeJudi]

Continuation of summary of the main points of the podcast: Tricia, liltexans, gitana1, Levi Page. Some but not all is verbatim.

T: Levi Page, do you have any idea why Chris’s side just did not want these autopsies released? Everybody was clamouring for them. They would have been released at some point anyway?

LP: Because I think they were wanting him to plead not guilty and if the autopsy reports were released, then everyone would see what the victims went through, what exactly he did to the victims and it would get people angry all over again, even more angry than before because we’re getting the details in such a gruesome way, in black and white on paper, and I think that it would make him look good and they don’t want him to look bad, so they didn’t want them released.

T: There might be some really horrific things in that autopsy report.

[Discussion re social media]

T: I can tell you that CW’s family definitely, at least when he was first arrested, vehemently denied that he killed all 3. They absolutely believed that he killed Shan’ann because Shan’ann was killing the girls, had killed the girls. I don’t know how they feel now. It sounds like the mother still believes that but I’m wondering if maybe some of his family members might be coming around a bit. You know, “This kid that we know and love, maybe he did do this”, and I’m sure it was a shock. Gitana, what is next? He’s sentenced. Now will he be allowed [sound breaks up] and find some piece of evidence and they want to appeal his guilty plea. Can they do that? Is there a way that they can try and overturn later his plea?

G1: Yes, there is. After sentencing that’s pretty much one of the only ways that you can withdraw a guilty plea is if there exists evidence of material facts that weren’t presented before, weren’t heard and that they could not have with reasonable diligence discovered at the time of the plea. So if something came up that no-one involved in this investigation and in this case, no-one knew of and could not have discovered before the plea, that’s one of the rare ways that you could actually overturn a guilty plea after sentencing, after the 19th. The other ways, you’ve got a conviction that was obtained or a sentence that’s imposed in violation of the Constitution or a violation of the law, the laws of the United States or the Constitution, the laws of the state, and big things like his due process rights were violated or there was a failure to advise him of his rights. That’s why they write these things out, these waivers and pleas, because all the due process requirements are right in there. So he can’t assert that. Or the law was a law that was in violation of the Constitution. It’s exceedingly hard and very difficult and I don’t see any of that happening successfully for this guy.

THE END

Thank you Tricia, liltexans and gitana1 for this fantastic podcast.

NB. JJ's transcription service has closed for the night. zzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Tortoise]

OMG, I just had a lightbulb moment listening to gitana1 talking about the typical FA's relationship with their own mother.

Paraphrasing, or at least this is the way I understood what she said - wtte that their own personality has been annihilated by the mother who demanded perfection.

It makes so much sense to me in that case how the FA would then have such a fragile sense of his true personality not being acceptable if he is about to be unmasked by his wife or unmasked by himself in leaving the family, as being imperfect. It doesn't explain to me why they would kill the babies, but I suppose they may be looking to the future and imagining the children also not viewing their father as perfect and godlike because he recognizes they adore their mother. In a way it is the recognition of his own flaws that drives him to wipe out all who may judge him the same way. If his wife and children are gone, it is then understandable that he will find a new partner - so no need to kill his family of origin.

I think it is certainly an angle that I'll be thinking more about. I am sure it could relate to fathers too.

 

[mtnlites]

No I can't.

To me that sounds like they can't admit they were wrong. That level of imagination, and the lying about Santa comment too, isn't coming from a healthy mind.

MOO

I agree. Most of those attacks on SW's parenting really got to me, not only because my parenting is very much along the same lines but because when I was a Crisis Intervention Specialist, I worked with state social workers. If a family was considered at risk for child removal, the state would call us in to work with the family to help them make the necessary changes they needed to make in order to keep their kids. I've seen tons of abuse, from sexual abuse to emotional and educational abuse. Even religious abuse. Nothing in SW's videos would have given us any kind of pause. A case would not have been open on her. Abuse can manifest itself in many different ways, and there are varying degrees of it, but SW's videos exhibited nothing that would've raised our eyebrows. In fact, I applauded many of the things she did.

You can't point to something in a video, a parenting choice that you don't agree with but something that's not abuse, and declare it as "evidence" for murder when everything she did with her kids was totally subjective.

 

[Colorado303]

I didn't even think about that! Could explain why he talked mostly about the girls and avoided mentioning his wife. If he deleted his FB account so the AP didn't know what was going on, he may have been thinking about her during the interview, too. Jmo

Of course! I had noticed he hadn't said he missed his wife during the interview, and just thought it was more proof that he hated her and he was too stupid to pretend like he missed her. But as soon as I read your post it clicked--he was thinking of his AP during the interviews and couldn't say he missed SW. Someone in an earlier post said they thought the whole content of the interviews was for her benefit, and now that it's been mentioned I don't doubt it at all. I wouldn't be surprised to find out his AP is the person who bought him that shirt he was so happy about. Not surprised at all.

 

[Tortoise]

Of course! I had noticed he hadn't said he missed his wife during the interview, and just thought it was more proof that he hated her and he was too stupid to pretend like he missed her. But as soon as I read your post it clicked--he was thinking of his AP during the interviews and couldn't say he missed SW. Someone in an earlier post said they thought the whole content of the interviews was for her benefit, and now that it's been mentioned I don't doubt it at all. I wouldn't be surprised to find out his AP is the person who bought him that shirt he was so happy about. Not surprised at all.

Yes what was upmost in his mind was 'she is watching me', IMO. I feel certain of it, he wanted her to know he did not care about Shan'ann. I bet he was calculating when it would be viewed as acceptable for him to go to her. His story - she would comfort him through his 'trauma' and then they would develop a relationship.

Sick.

 

[Tortoise]

Kudos to you Colorado303 (and Mr Thayer) for waiting to talk.

 

[Colorado303]

My guess would be that their antennas went up at this point.

They probably weren’t sure what they were dealing with though, so until they got a clearer picture of something nefarious occurring, it’s just something they would have made a mental note of.

But once they realized that something very bad had happened, they were looking directly at him.

His interviews would have completely convinced them that he was responsible.

Personally I think the doors being locked from the inside and her purse and the girls medicine still in the house made them suspicious, but the video of him backing the truck into the garage is what clinched it for LE.

 

[Tortoise]

Personally I think the doors being locked from the inside and her purse and the girls medicine still in the house made them suspicious, but the video of him backing the truck into the garage is what clinched it for LE.

I think they would have everything they needed to move in on him after hearing him speak of Bella in the past tense too. Mind you they probably already had the drone up by that stage, and had the dogs indicating death.

 

[Colorado303]

Kudos to you Colorado303 (and Mr Thayer) for waiting to talk.

Thank you. I hate to back out of anything and I'm truly grateful people understand.

 

[Colorado303]

I think they would have everything they needed to move in on him after hearing him speak of Bella in the past tense too. Mind you they probably already had the drone up by that stage, and had the dogs indicating death.

His interviews are painful to watch but I have to admit I get a kick out of seeing his face when the cadaver dogs start barking. I'm sure he thought they were search dogs and had no idea what the barking really signified, but that's a moment when LE no doubt thought "we have him".

 

[mtnlites]

His interviews are painful to watch but I have to admit I get a kick out of seeing his face when the cadaver dogs start barking. I'm sure he thought they were search dogs and had no idea what the barking really signified, but that's a moment when LE no doubt thought "we have him".

There's nothing funny about it, but I may have paused the video on several occasions, just to prolong my enjoyment of his "oh crap" moment.

 

[Tortoise]

Herculean task transcribing the podcast JJ! Thank you.

Hopefully the posts can be copied over (in sequence) into a sticky, without the interrupting posts.

 

[Colorado303]

His description of Bella and Celeste and their personalities in relation to himself and Shanann has always sat wrong with me, and it being the mention of Celeste that set him off in tears kind of solidified my feelings. I'm not sure if I can describe this well, but I'm going to try.

He said:

'Celeste, she’s just a bubble of energy, she’s called rampage because she’s like… she’s always… it’s… she’s got two speeds - go or she’s sleeping and she’s always a troublemaker, she’s always the one jumping off things, you know, and she’s yelling at you and all kind of things. Bella she’s the more calm, cautious, mothering type and she’s… she’s more like me, she’s more calm, she’s… but Celeste has definitely got her mom’s personality where she’s always hung-ho ready to go.'

The things he initially says about Celeste sound... less than complimentary, and when you add that at the end he says she has her mom's personality, it sounds like victim blaming. She's a troublemaker, she's yelling and all kind of things. 'She's always gung ho and ready to go' definitely sounds like a quality Celeste has received from Shanann... but I think the 'rampage', the troublemaker and the yelling... are all CW.

Bella being the more calm, the more mothering type, more like HIM? Nope. I'm not buying it. I do not and cannot buy that he was the mother in this family.

I think the descriptions of the girls may be fairly accurate (but more in the sense of feisty vs. structured), but he is distributing their qualities in a manner that makes him look like the good guy. Don't look at CW for this, for he is the voice of reason, the calm in a storm. Pfft.

He used 63 words to describe Celeste. He used 18 to describe Bella. For what that's worth.

Rampage vs. Mothering.

If we had to pick, who do you think he identified with more strongly?

One of SW's friends told me recently that CeCe was clearly his favorite. I was surprised for the exact reasons you outlined in his description of the two. And reports from people who were in the courtroom Tuesday said he didn't cry until he said "guilty" to her murder--it was the third count read.

 

[Colorado303]

I actually thought he had no idea, but reading the bit of the affidavit that was posted in the last thread, I think he did know.
It says that on scene, the Detective asked CW to walk him through the time he last saw Shanann. CW says she arrived home at at approximately 1:48AM.
It later notes that cameras recorded NUA's car leaving their home at exactly 1:48AM.
On scene, CW says he backed the truck up to the garage at approximately 5:27AM.
It later notes that cameras recorded this event at....5:27AM!

This sounds to me like someone very aware of the cameras, making careful note of things that would be captured, and when.

If I am reading this correctly, that he gave them exact times using 'approximately', which were later backed up by cameras as precise, this had to have been one of the first (of many) red flags that something was very, very wrong.

I think CW was questioned about the timeline after he and LE viewed the neighbor's security footage together.

 

[Tortoise]

One of SW's friends told me recently that CeCe was clearly his favorite. I was surprised for the exact reasons you outlined in his description of the two. And reports from people who were in the courtroom Tuesday said he didn't cry until he said "guilty" to her murder--it was the third count read.

I'm really torn about this detail.

On the surface it looks to be some level of remorse. But very controlled remorse if so - very late in the day. Didn't exist when he was denying it. He was capable of strangling (or otherwise killing) her. He was capable of ramming her tiny body inside an oil vat. Why did grief not show itself in his eyes as he spoke of his little Rampage? I am suspect of the tears. But maybe there was a tinge of acknowledgement of his own depths of depravity? Or shame. I don't know.

 

[Colorado303]

This would be ideal.
Let this horrid person, CW, see that he is insignificant, in their lives.
He is already removed.
This would have a great bearing on CW: not important at all.
He is a fizzle, that has disappeared.

If he walked into the courtroom to an empty gallery and was told no-one came because no-one cared, do you think he would be relieved or dismayed?

 

[mtnlites]

If he walked into the courtroom to an empty gallery and was told no-one came because no-one cared, do you think he would be relieved or dismayed?

Maybe relieved? I think he's more likely to feel embarrassment over remorse. I wager that's what the tears may have been about. As much as SW gets attacked for being all about appearances and trying to project a "perfect" life, I think HE is the one who did that. Although ego might get wounded over the idea of nobody caring, I think having to do all of this in front of the public may be one of his worst nightmares.

 

[Thepoet]

I'm really torn about this detail.

On the surface it looks to be some level of remorse. But very controlled remorse if so - very late in the day. Didn't exist when he was denying it. He was capable of strangling (or otherwise killing) her. He was capable of ramming her tiny body inside an oil vat. Why did grief not show itself in his eyes as he spoke of his little Rampage? I am suspect of the tears. But maybe there was a tinge of acknowledgement of his own depths of depravity? Or shame. I don't know.

Maybe it had nothing to do with grief or with Cece, maybe it was at that point, as he said another "guilty" the realization hit him that he was done and going away to prison forever! I can't bring myself to believe he feels remorse, except for being caught.

However, if it was a tinge of remorse, perhaps it will grow until it consumes him and tortures him!