Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #47

[gitana1]

If a conviction is overturned, can the case be retried or does double jeopardy apply and he would be free as a bird?

It would be a retrial. Because it would be as if the conviction never happened.

And I'm very certain that won't happen.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Thank you for listening to the podcast and for the compliment. I was born and raised in the Midwest. I guess I was too old when I moved to Texas to pick up the accent. haha

I’m so glad you enjoyed the podcast.

You, and the moderators, did an extraordinary job in moderating the site.

I have never seen so much time put into a thread to moderate.

You overwhelmingly didn't delete things that people posted as replies on that were deleted, you left their post without the original one that you deleted. That takes a lot of time.

And you did so many mods snips, and that took such a lot of time I'm sure.

Thank you so much for your time and what you do to volunteer for victims. You guys went Above and Beyond on this case and thank you

 

[liltexans]

I was super impressed by you. And the fact that you have moderated these boards during such a divisive time without letting your personal opinions get in the way of trying to accomplish fair moderation.

That could not be easy!

Thank you. That is so kind. I could listen to you speak about this case or any case for hours. Someone suggested that you should start a YouTube channel. I second that thought! I would be one of your first subscribers if you ever decide to that.

 

[gitana1]

I remember hearing about this years ago. Why is it only coming up now as a possible reason to overturn the verdict?

It's not. They've tried to make those claims already and they failed. This is not new. It's another step after being shot down in the initial appeal.

This was a writ of habeau corpus. A long shot after the appeal has been denied.

Understand that appeals are only successful if the defendant can show there was serious, "reversible" during trial, that violated his or her constitutional rights. Errors can be made at trial but most don't arise to that level.

The appellate court gives the trial court a lot of latitude when it comes to running the show. The trial court has a lot of discretion.

And when it comes to things like ineffective assistance of counsel, that's also a super high burden to meet. Things like falling asleep during trial or waiving a client's right to something by not objecting, aren't typically enough.
The Appeal, Writ and Habeas Corpus Petition Process - FindLaw

Peterson is not going to win his writ/appeals just as CW is not going to be successful at withdrawing his plea, IMO.

 

[gitana1]

Will CW feel the need to get something on the record at the Nov. 19th hearing? Apology? Explanation? Blame? Something unexpected?

Or just stony silence?

@gitana1 will his attorneys want him to speak or shut up?

They'd probably want him to express appropriate remorse without much explanation or justification.

I have a feeling that will be hard for him to do. But I was wrong about him giving in to a plea. So we shall see.

 

[gitana1]

One particularly unbelievable case is that of Christopher Panayiotou who paid street criminals to murder his wife Jayde and make it look like a mugging gone bad. We have a thread for it. The police had video evidence (a bugging device with audio and visual) of him sitting in a car with the guy he paid, a few days after the murder, telling him off for not taking her rings and now it looked like it wasn't a mugging. His parents will not accept his conviction and continue to believe in his innocence, funding an appeal. It's like they wouldn't watch the video, or something. They also behaved appallingly towards Jayde's family in the court. He was also carrying on a love affair and wanted his wife out of the picture.

How did his family act?

 

[Thepoet]

They'd probably want him to express appropriate remorse without much explanation or justification.

I have a feeling that will be hard for him to do. But I was wrong about him giving in to a plea. So we shall see.

Thanks. I agree. I also agree with your assessment that the defense team has been very good. Especially with what they have had to work with (against?).

 

[gitana1]

On a darker note; I've thought about it a great deal and I've come to the conclusion, IMHO, that CW will have a lifespan of, no more than, two to five years. I believe he's at high risk of being murdered because of his crimes, including what he did with his daughter's bodies, and also because of his personality. He expects to be catered to and for no demands to be put upon himself. That won't fly in prison and will create a conflict. Conflicts in prison are very dangerous. Beyond that, even though I believe he's a coward, I also believe the hopelessness of his life and existence will overwhelm him and he'll pull the plug at the first opportunity. He's a weak, cowardly man who has used those who loved him. Now he's going to a place. with no escape, where he'll be used. What he wants and needs no longer matters, in any way. He no longer matters, in any way. And I believe it's beginning to hit home with him. I just cannot see him accepting and adjusting. He murdered three people who loved him, and his unborn baby, to get what he wanted, so he'll murder himself to get what he wants; final escape and closure.

You're probably right. But sometimes I think these sorts do well in prison because inexplicably they're more free inside than they were when they were out.

 

[mickey2942]

You're probably right. But sometimes I think these sorts do well in prison because inexplicably they're more free inside than they were when they were out.

The thing about prison society is that you have to find a group that you fit into, that group becomes your "family", and has your back. If CW doesn't find his "group", things won't go well for him. Already he has low status, for several reasons, killing women and children are "low status" crimes.

I don't see him as being able to really fit well into any group. He will probably end up as a "go-fer" for someone in a group. That is really low. If he gets that lucky.

 

[Tortoise]

How did his family act?

Obnoxiously. I can't remember the details of it but there were things like deliberately shoving into them as they walked past, asking their counsel to say very rude things about them (lies) to the judge (the trial was livestreamed), horrid glances, that kind of thing. Jayde's family meanwhile were impeccable, really undeserving of any of it.

 

[gitana1]

The thing about prison society is that you have to find a group that you fit into, that group becomes your "family", and has your back. If CW doesn't find his "group", things won't go well for him. Already he has low status, for several reasons, killing women and children are "low status" crimes.

I don't see him as being able to really fit well into any group. He will probably end up as a "go-fer" for someone in a group. That is really low. If he gets that lucky.

True. But I think they try to house baby killers and low status together and sort of isolate them.

Who knows? He could be a big man among all the other baby killers.

 

[Tortoise]

We ought to write it all out - like a list of ingredients - the recipe for the family annihilator. If only Shan'ann could have known she was at risk, she never would have entered her house alone that night. I think I would start off the list by saying be alarmed by a change in behaviour. Deleting facebook - out of character. Being distant and unaffectionate (when the pregnancy should have been a time of greater closeness and excitement - not the opposite).

 

[mickey2942]

We ought to write it all out - like a list of ingredients - the recipe for the family annihilator. If only Shan'ann could have known she was at risk, she never would have entered her house alone that night. I think I would start off the list by saying be alarmed by a change in behaviour. Deleting facebook - out of character. Being distant and unaffectionate (when the pregnancy should have been a time of greater closeness and excitement - not the opposite).

I don't think that you ever really "know". But I know this much, I was married to someone very much like Drew Peterson, they draw you in, as someone you feel sorry for, and slowly it becomes a web of unending drama and lies. You still live this "fantasy" life in your head, that everything is "perfect", even though the reality of the disconnect continues to hit you over the head.

I am sure SW was very close to leaving. And CW knew it. That is the worst, and most dangerous time for a woman, who is leaving someone who is a psychopath. When you leave a psychopath, just leave everything. Get as far away as possible. Don't be fooled by anything they say...because they don't change.

 

[Charlot123]

Chris Watts Pleads GUILTY to Killing Wife & Kids/The Cruelty of Social Media/

Listening to it. Beautiful voices, wonderful speakers. I wish we had a printed version, though, because I am a very fast reader. And the podcast raises quite a few questions. Not sure childhood or upbringing play such a role. I also wonder how EEGs of these people would look like because in all cases of family annihilators and serial killers that I am thinking of, there is evidence of extreme detachment, almost like dissociation.

 

[Mentalheadslap2018]

Suspects have told ridiculous lies to turn the spotlight on others in the past, but never before have I known so many people to actually believe it, and come up with so many crazy stories to support it. This is definitely a first for me.... well I just thought of Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony so maybe it's not so unusual after all. Jmo

I agree. This woman and her beautiful innocent woman were brutally wiped off the face of the earth forever. Nothing can explain or justify that in any way whatsoever. Full stop.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think that you ever really "know". But I know this much, I was married to someone very much like Drew Peterson, they draw you in, as someone you feel sorry for, and slowly it becomes a web of unending drama and lies. You still live this "fantasy" life in your head, that everything is "perfect", even though the reality of the disconnect continues to hit you over the head.

I am sure SW was very close to leaving. And CW knew it. That is the worst, and most dangerous time for a woman, who is leaving someone who is a psychopath. When you leave a psychopath, just leave everything. Get as far away as possible. Don't be fooled by anything they say...because they don't change.

But you probably don't know they're a psychopath. If there was more widely accessible information or teaching about some danger signals or commonalities, like we might learn about the different types of snake for instance, at least you get to say well my relationship is in trouble and all those items check off on the list, I'm taking precautions just in case. Better to be wrong and safe.

 

[AbbyG]

Listening to it. Beautiful voices, wonderful speakers. I wish we had a printed version, though, because I am a very fast reader. And the podcast raises quite a few questions. Not sure childhood or upbringing play such a role. I also wonder how EEGs of these people would look like because in all cases of family annihilators and serial killers that I am thinking of, there is evidence of extreme detachment, almost like dissociation.

I agree, I don't think upbringing can explain the ability to plan an execute the murders of your own children. This goes way past an overindulged child never taught consequences -- most of us do not need to fear consequences to not WANT to kill our loved ones. Most of us, even extreme narcissists, are able to form attachments and would be unable to kill their children. People mentioned the Susan Powers case but that is quite different, imo - in that case he killed his wife, and only killed his wife (and self) when the walls were closing in on him. Sick, vengeful, spiteful, hideous man, but a different species imo. One thing that continues to boggle me about CW and his ilk -- why do they not consider that there is a good chance they will be caught? It seems to not enter their minds. So in that sense, they cannot understand consequences -- it is so delusional -- but I think that coexists with something else. So the upbringing may create a lethal inability to think through impulses but the desire and ability to wipe out their own children is something else, IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think that you ever really "know". But I know this much, I was married to someone very much like Drew Peterson, they draw you in, as someone you feel sorry for, and slowly it becomes a web of unending drama and lies. You still live this "fantasy" life in your head, that everything is "perfect", even though the reality of the disconnect continues to hit you over the head.

I am sure SW was very close to leaving. And CW knew it. That is the worst, and most dangerous time for a woman, who is leaving someone who is a psychopath. When you leave a psychopath, just leave everything. Get as far away as possible. Don't be fooled by anything they say...because they don't change.

I think a book "Why is he so mean to me?" by Cindy Burrell is pretty helpful. It is about enablers-abusers, but the way I see the problem with wives of Chris Wattses or Drew Petersons, they might not see the psychopathy because they have been in the relationships for quite a while. In case of SW, she clearly missed all the signs. What she thought was CW had no game (and he was dating multiple partners), that he wanted to have one more baby (I believe it was his idea), that he had a history of being loyal to her in the time of the illness, that he was a good dad to the girls. And it all was true. How can anyone see that the person is thinking of murder?
One sign could be "Chris has changed. He is not old Chris". But this is surely not enough to suspect murder.
And I bet if SW were asked, "do you think CW is capable of killing you, for whatever reason, and the girls, and hiding their bodies in oil tanks?", she'd energetically say, no.

One thing why he was able to pull it off with the person like SW (very intuitive and strong) was his ability to compartmentalize aspects of his life. CW with his relationships, whoever they were, CW with AP, CW with kids, CW the husband, CW the metallica lover, CW planning to kill his family.

I wonder if other people do it. I know I used this mechanism several times, when my life was going to change (usually related to long-distance moves and starting anew). Once I wanted to move, the other time had to follow the family. But I have noticed that when things in old life are OK and in a new one, hard to predict, I mentally continue living in old life, making plans, what not.

I wonder if it is normal human response, or some people just cling to stability.

But this can explain why no one saw it in CW. If he, picking up his kids from the party, did not think "tomorrow you will be dead", but mentally drew the lines of their lives longer, "tomorrow we have to watch this movie", or whatever, then, of course, no one else would see it.

 

[MsBetsy]

I agree, I don't think upbringing can explain the ability to plan an execute the murders of your own children. This goes way past an overindulged child never taught consequences -- most of us do not need to fear consequences to not WANT to kill our loved ones. Most of us, even extreme narcissists, are able to form attachments and would be unable to kill their children. People mentioned the Susan Powers case but that is quite different, imo - in that case he killed his wife, and only killed his wife (and self) when the walls were closing in on him. Sick, vengeful, spiteful, hideous man, but a different species imo. One thing that continues to boggle me about CW and his ilk -- why do they not consider that there is a good chance they will be caught? It seems to not enter their minds. So in that sense, they cannot understand consequences -- it is so delusional -- but I think that coexists with something else. So the upbringing may create a lethal inability to think through impulses but the desire and ability to wipe out their own children is something else, IMO.

I think you are right. There is sometimes a genetic trait which may or not develop into a personality disorder. I think it depends largely on the family dynamics and environment.
As for CW not considering whether or not he would be caught, it may be that he thinks he is smarter than anyone else. Jmo

 

[Charlot123]

One thing he forgot to factor in is you can't predict what other people will do. Like finding a way of climbing up to look in through 8ft high windows to see if the car is in the garage. Had the car been gone I suspect NUA might not have been as persistent. Could be wrong.

Everyone says, NUA. And really, a lot of honor goes to NUA.

But ultimately, it is SW.

Because it was SW's ability to make friends, a lot of friends, everywhere, good friends, devoted friends, being a good friend, that made one of them who saw her last, NUA, care enough to check on her friend and then go through the motions and call the police.

Let us review this aspect of SW. What we see in the media is SW the vendor. I am ironic about all these home sales, so to distance myself from it, I am saying, Gwyneth Paltrow sells a lot, J-Lo sells a lot, lots of other celebrities have brands and lifestyle products, this is how the world goes. (Even Di Caprio sells lab-grown diamonds). So the fact that everyone else starts selling "whatever" using social media should not be surprising.

But the SW we saw on the media was the glamorous SW, trying to sell some thingy. Perhaps in life she was a very different person. It would help if we could have more of her friends and not only from the vendors' world, talk about real SW, better even before the sales. Just to tell what kind of a person she used to be. I am now thinking that because of the girls, she is somehow halfway forgotten in this situation. And she was a lupus survivor, and no one knowing her said a bad word about her.