GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #57

[MassGuy]

What were they talking about for 12 minutes?

That may have been a FaceTime call with the kids.

Ronnie’s father said he though the call was made at around 1700.

Phone records show he was close.

 

[kiwilaura]

What happened to Anardarko mistress #2, the married one? Where was she is the pdf? Did I miss her interview?

There is a document, sorry can’t remember the page number, where a married co-worker, Amber F, contacted LE to say that rumours were circulating that she was the AP. She tried to make a police complaint as she says she had never even met CW, but she was told the situation did not meet the threshold for a crime.

Unfortunately there were so many rumours on FB that were just total BS. Which was exactly why we were not allowed to discuss them here. MOO

 

[cailleach]

Because I'm behind, forgive me if this has been discussed previously today.

My belief is he had been planning the murders for some time. I think the urgency that it was going to happen the night it did is because he had gotten his butt in a sling by agreeing to go away with SW to work on their marriage. (SW had already arranged childcare with her friend.) He knew that following through with that weekend trip with Shan'ann was going to jeopardize his relationship with NK.

Further, we know he doesn't experience real love so he didn't love NK any more than he had SW. He HAD chosen NK just like he did SW (another woman with her own house, btw, and much more in assets and family connections in the industry). I think he was after NK for what she could do for him, and once he got what he needed and tired of her she would have been next and he would have ended up with a nice inheritence. It would have been so much easier the second time around if he had gotten away with the first round of murders.

Anyone else thinking the same types of things?

 

[felix5]

He absolutely lied about things that were frivolous to lie about.

In the case of not remembering NA’s son’s name, he may have forgotten because he’s a complete idiot, or he is so narcissistic that he doesn’t bother to learn other people’s names.

The world revolves around him.

I've got one of these in my family. She lies when the truth would serve her better. She lies about her scams but she also lies about meaningless nonsense. She's smart but she contradicts herself with every word. If you call her on it she ducks and runs or gets vicious. She is ruthlessly vengeful if you see under her mask and question anything. She only has emotions for herself, otherwise evil robot. Then I go and date one. That was fun. Love bomb, devalue, destroy, discard.

This whole thing is chilling to me because the basic makeup of these people (things?) that I've known is the same. So many things about this guy ring so familiar to me it makes my skin crawl. Of course they don't all kill. They seem to all come in the same packaging though.

Reading the demise of their relationship while he's hooking the new one and his choice of how to discard is making me ill. I read that covered up doll as "Run. Now." She didn't pick up the message.

The confirmation that he sent that doll is the scariest thing to me in these findings.

 

[Mitch11]

I have my own theories with this. Killers like Edmund Kemper took their rage for their overbearing and cold mothers out on their victims. Many have noticed that Cindy and SW are both strong personalities (though Shanann showed she can be very warm and caring). I think he resents women like this, women who are assertive.

NK may have been assertive sexually but I get the sense she was, like most affair partners, more accommodating and passive emotionally. I think he began to see his daughters as bossy extensions of his wife. I keep seeing examples of CW speaking of them in a negative light and it's so sad.

Nichol said CW mentioned he knew he needed to separate from Shanann because the girls started to repeat the same negative things to him Shanann would say. And then there's this part of the document where he describes his routine with the girls. He sounds like he was full of disdain for them and found them demanding. His toddler children.

It's so so sad that I believe you are right. Breaks my heart as they are just wee little kids who adored him. His comment about them being bossy appears as if he was going to say 'just like SW'

The awful thing is he did a full 180. My kids annoy me too at dinner time. My partner can't stand it either. Lots of people I know hate that particular time of day. Boo hoo! That's what kids do. IMO I get the impression his kids really started getting on his nerves when he wanted to spend all his time obsessing over NK, searching websites for hotel stays and metallica lyrics.

 

[Mitch11]

Yes. That passage was memorable. It surprised me when CW said Cece was Daddy's Girl and Bella was Mommy's Girl because Cece was the spitting image ad a firecracker like SW. Bella was shy and hesitant and looked just like Chris.

How could you smother your flesh-and-blood who looks like a little version of you?

Because deep down under his facade he hates himself

 

[mrjitty]

There’s also the report that SW’s credit card was declined when she tried to order hair products online after 2:00 in the morning. Could have caused her to challenge him about his recent credit card charges— and he decided ok, tonight is the night.

On this point - it seems she was already challenging him about the credit card charge from Saturday night. I think he did this because he no longer needed to hide anything. But maybe he didn't realise she would get an alert.

On the declined haircare products, i wasn't sure if she ordered at 2am or if it was merely declined at that time?

 

[kkdj]

On this point - it seems she was already challenging him about the credit card charge from Saturday night. I think he did this because he no longer needed to hide anything. But maybe he didn't realise she would get an alert.

On the declined haircare products, i wasn't sure if she ordered at 2am or if it was merely declined at that time?

Or...CW ordered with her CC, to make it look as if she was alive.

 

[MassGuy]

I've got one of these in my family. She lies when the truth would serve her better. She lies about her scams but she also lies about meaningless nonsense. She's smart but she contradicts herself with every word. If you call her on it she ducks and runs or gets vicious. She is ruthlessly vengeful if you see under her mask and question anything. She only has emotions for herself, otherwise evil robot. Then I go and date one. That was fun. Love bomb, devalue, destroy, discard.

This whole thing is chilling to me because the basic makeup of these people (things?) that I've known is the same. So many things about this guy ring so familiar to me it makes my skin crawl. Of course they don't all kill. They seem to all come in the same packaging though.

Reading the demise of their relationship while he's hooking the new one and his choice of how to discard is making me ill. I read that covered up doll as "Run. Now." She didn't pick up the message.

The confirmation that he sent that doll is the scariest thing to me in these findings.

You’re not the first person to draw comparisons to this guy from first hand experience. That is scary.

Clearly there are many of them out there, but as you say, most don’t kill.

There were no real warning signs, and certainly nothing that would portend this horrific crime. That is also scary.

As for the doll, it is certainly ominous, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Still though, that wouldn’t be enough to make most people run.

It is incredibly sad to almost see their marriage collapsing, and Shanann’s efforts to save it, which were obviously in vain.

She was losing her mind with grief, and he slept soundly at night.

Only a monster could do that.

 

[MassGuy]

On this point - it seems she was already challenging him about the credit card charge from Saturday night. I think he did this because he no longer needed to hide anything. But maybe he didn't realise she would get an alert.

On the declined haircare products, i wasn't sure if she ordered at 2am or if it was merely declined at that time?

I definitely agree with your point.

I think that the 2am order was placed and declined at the same time.

 

[mrjitty]

***Did they ever locate the children's blankets and toys he took from the house that day? And did they locate the shovel? I skipped around the documents and did not see where they definitively recovered each of these. Thanks in advance!

The shovel was his work shovel that he always kept in his truck.

The blankets / toys he claimed were left with the sheet and "blew away"

I think he trashed those items and didn't want to admit it.

 

[mrjitty]

I've got one of these in my family. She lies when the truth would serve her better. She lies about her scams but she also lies about meaningless nonsense. She's smart but she contradicts herself with every word. If you call her on it she ducks and runs or gets vicious. She is ruthlessly vengeful if you see under her mask and question anything. She only has emotions for herself, otherwise evil robot. Then I go and date one. That was fun. Love bomb, devalue, destroy, discard.

Yes I had a similar experience with a borderline psychopath.

What is strange is that even in a 1:1 situation where you both know the truth of key matters - psychopath lies anyway. I often wondered what is the point of that - like who is the lie for? It was only when I read up on abusive personalities that i discovered that they prefer not to confront the truth internally so they frequently lie even in absurd situations

 

[MassGuy]

The shovel was his work shovel that he always kept in his truck.

The blankets / toys he claimed were left with the sheet and "blew away"

I think he trashed those items and didn't want to admit it.

Yeah. If that sheet didn’t blow away, there’s no way those stuffed animals did. That area was thoroughly searched.

He had to have dumped stuff somewhere.

 

[mrjitty]

NUA tells me the shirt she was found in is the one she was wearing on the plane ride home and SW never removed her makeup. If she was awake enough to order hair products as OCD as she was it’s unlikely she’d abandon her pre-bed routine. Which IMO points to her being awake when she was killed.

I think if you read the initial confession and polygraph test - there are statements from visual memory included there

She was crying. The Mascara running down her face. I think that was real, vivid detail. But just not the last time he saw her. It was the last time she was alive.

"i did the same thing to fncking her.... those were my kids"

This strong statement is IMO, a pure confession of what happened. He speaks of pure rage.

[... she knew he was cheating and he denied it]

Ronnie asked Chris if that was the point SW went off and CW said it was when SW started crying.

He corrects Ronnie. IMO this really happened.

 

[mtnlites]

The shovel was his work shovel that he always kept in his truck.

The blankets / toys he claimed were left with the sheet and "blew away"

I think he trashed those items and didn't want to admit it.

A man who wouldn't even put his babies in the same damn tank wouldn't have cared about placing comforting toys nearby.

 

[katydid23]

I am really starting to believe that CW was starting to resent the kids attitude towards him. It annoyed them when they screamed for their Mom when she wasn’t around. It annoyed hin that they seemed to prefer Grampa over him in NC. After all he did for them. Why bother going broke and losing the love of his life for those ungrateful brats. I think he had that thought and nurtured it until he was ready for them to just be gone.

The girls had not seen him, hardly at all, for 6 weeks. That is an eternity for 3 and 4 yr olds. I am pretty sure they were crying for Mommy at some point, that weekend. When toddlers get cranky and tired, they want Mommy. I bet he didn't like that much at all. He has very thin skinned.

 

[pocketaccent]

August 13, 2018

0905 hours- Watts called Ann Meadows (realtor) and held a three minute forty second conversation.

1227 hours - Meadows told Watts, "hi, I'm working on your market analysis - I would like to bring my listing coordinator with me when I bring it. Did you finish the basement? Any other upgrades? (These messages were also found in Shanann's phone, likely sent as a group text by Ann.)

1243 hours - Watts to Meadows : "Basement is still unfinished. No other upgrades"

1303 hours - Meadows to Watts: Suggested a house at 6508 Saratoga* may be viable.

1314 hours - Meadows asked if Watts preferred a three car garage. Watts replied, "3 car garage. I will drive by the 6508 address when I get home."

*6508 Saratoga Trl, Frederick, CO 80516
https://www.trulia.com/p/co/frederick/6508-saratoga-trl-frederick-co-80516--2073647552
Listed for sale June 30. 2018 $620,000 -> Price change July 18, 2018 to $599.900
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It looks like CW was planning to sell his current house and also asked the realtor to look for another house he can buy. What a guy.

 

[k-mac]

You know.... I have "met" the kindest people here. It's been amazing. And learned so much from @Mrspratcher and @gitana1

It's been such a long road with Shanann, Bella, CeCe, and Nico. But thankfully so much shorter than it could have been.

I've read every page, every note. It's as horrifying as we knew it would be. The desperation of Shannan trying to save her marriage through this new world of texts not only broke my heart, but opened it. It's all so very horrific.

Women.... please... talk out loud to each other. Speak your truth. You are loved even if by strangers we are here. I promise it will be ok if you speak your truth. We believe you. Just like we believed Shannan. Thank God for NUA.

Men, like the new world I have entered.... stop. Just stop. Please stop.

Shanann, Bella, CeCe, and Nico, your family, YOU ARE LOVED! And you are all that matters.

Edited to add jmo and thank you @PommyMommy for being so awesome.

your pretty awesome too johnny
through some of those early dark days fighting against 'them' your championing of shanann was a highlight for us all

 

[katydid23]

You get fired when ... you do something wrong / violate the code of ethics. So ... why didn’t they see her as a “victim” and keep her employed?

Most companies don't allow coworkers to date. Especially if infidelity is involved...

 

[Mitch11]

Do you believe that a murderer can ever be rehabilitated?

Yes depending on the circumstances. Someone who murders someone in their late teens/ early twenties who shows guilt, remorse, full awareness of what they have done and completely owns up to it and the impact they had on others could very well be rehabilitated.