GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #62

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  • #821
I am neither a psychologist or physiatrist but this has entered my mind because she did look so much like him. And Cece did too but not as much as Bella.
And this makes no sense but I wonder if he was able to do such an act because he really wanted to kill himself and it made it easier because they looked like him? We know he should have offed himself but he was to chicken to do that plus he had a new exciting life to go to.
But it makes me wonder how you can kill your children especially in such a personal way as he did.
I believe CW has some serious "mother issues." He loathes Cindy. He married a woman that she did not approve of. I think he was seeing his mother's face as he was strangling SW. CW also made a comment to NK that the girls were beginning to repeat things they heard SW say to him. I think he viewed these girls as growing up to be women, telling him what to do, and he didn't want any part of it so better to extinguish them now. The relationship with NK was obviously only physical. He didn't know her, had never seen her in the company of others, never witnessed her around her family, friends, etc. CW is exactly where he deserves to be. And he never deserved a family. MOO
 
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  • #822
Just wanted to comment on the nut issue. The watts had some ice cream with nuts and the sister put nuts on the table. Were they trying to get Shanann to leave? I wonder if CW was really running SW down behind her back to his family and they believed him doesn't seem SW could have done anything to make them dislike her that much. Small kids get into everything and a parent would literally have to have eyes in the back of ones head to make sure she didn't tKe any nuts

What about the razorblades that were allegedly laying around?? That seems pretty sadistic and intentional. Cindy hated SW and used the kids as a tool to hurt SW even if it meant costing her grandkids a trip to the ER or worse.

It seems Cindy enjoyed playing mind games with SW and the girls. She enjoyed getting a rise of out SW and then played innocent. "See... I'm not the crazy one, Shanann is! She's overreacting again!"
I have no doubt, Cindy would hate any partner CW chose to be with. No one is good enough for precious CW as Mother Watts is.
 
  • #823
In serial killers specifically, there is believed to be a bit of a mix going on:

Childhood trauma combined with some sort of genetic predisposition.

Anyone who studies these people, will tell you the same thing, they are still completely responsible for their actions.

He isn’t a sociopath because he chose to be, but he is a killer because he decided to be.

I would say, he is a killer because he chose to be. There are situations when people have no choice, e.g., war, or someone attacking them, or their kids. Even Jainism, the nicest religion ever, allows it.

But killing when there are other choices available is different.

There are other situations. Both ancient Jews (Abraham) and ancient Greeks (myth of Iphigenia) once made the opposite choice, to walk away from human sacrifices. Apparently, there are people who might be born with opposite brain structures? Always were?
 
  • #824
In thinking about CW and SW getting married- and his complicated and bizarre emotional configuration - I wonder why he went ahead and married SW even though his family clearly didn't want him to. Given what we've been discussing in terms of all of things that may have been a factor in his "emotional demise" (for lack of a better term), it seems like he would have been really scared to go against his mother. Any psychologist (or otherwise) thoughts on what would make him take that leap? Was it a just a brief attempt at finally asserting himself? And then perhaps he came to regret his assertiveness and he started to stew, etc?
 
  • #825
I think it was done purposely and as you say to drive Shanann away. I'm not sure how much of it was Cindy and how much of it was the sister.
I think that they are a team.
 
  • #826
What about the razorblades that were allegedly laying around?? That seems pretty sadistic and intentional. Cindy hated SW and used the kids as a tool to hurt SW even if it meant costing her grandkids a trip to the ER or worse.

It seems Cindy enjoyed playing mind games with SW and the girls. She enjoyed getting a rise of out SW and then played innocent. "See... I'm not the crazy one, Shanann is! She's overreacting again!"
I have no doubt, Cindy would hate any partner CW chose to be with. No one is good enough for precious CW as Mother Watts is.

Pretty sadistic, IMO...
 
  • #827
  • #828
Did they tell you they brought in the girls to clean the house, lol?
they hot footed it out of there that fast I didn't catch a blubbering word lmao!:D
 
  • #829
In thinking about CW and SW getting married- and his complicated and bizarre emotional configuration - I wonder why he went ahead and married SW even though his family clearly didn't want him to. Given what we've been discussing in terms of all of things that may have been a factor in his "emotional demise" (for lack of a better term), it seems like he would have been really scared to go against his mother. Any psychologist (or otherwise) thoughts on what would make him take that leap? Was it a just a brief attempt at finally asserting himself? And then perhaps he came to regret his assertiveness and he started to stew, etc?

Some passive, dominated people will marry a really strong personality to go to bat for them with their dominating "family of origin"...
 
  • #830
In thinking about CW and SW getting married- and his complicated and bizarre emotional configuration - I wonder why he went ahead and married SW even though his family clearly didn't want him to. Given what we've been discussing in terms of all of things that may have been a factor in his "emotional demise" (for lack of a better term), it seems like he would have been really scared to go against his mother. Any psychologist (or otherwise) thoughts on what would make him take that leap? Was it a just a brief attempt at finally asserting himself? And then perhaps he came to regret his assertiveness and he started to stew, etc?
He may have enjoyed doing it to spite his mother. He said in the interview he moved away and never went back to live with them, and it came across to me as some sort of a rebellion or point he wanted to make to Tammy, that he cut away, but he made sure to talk about his dad being his hero. It was what he didn't say about Cindy that hung in the air for me. I'm sure he didn't forgive his mother for something since he was a very young child.
 
  • #831
Hey Everyone,

I'd like to welcome our new verified attorney riolove77. Riolove77 has been a member for many years but is now a lawyer has so graciously agreed to become verified.

Riolove77 is also into the Watts case like all of us.

Welcome, Riolove77 as our latest verified member/attorney on Websleuths.
Tricia

Thanks, @Tricia ! Sorry for the delayed response, I was decorating the house for Christmas today, and the 8 ft. tree took more time than I expected! As I was decorating it, though, I couldn't help but think of Bella and Cece, and how they would and should be decorating a Christmas tree with all their favorite ornaments right about now. What an absolutely unnecessary, evil waste of life.

As Tricia mentioned, I've been here for several years, but usually have been a lurker, until the Watts case. I tried to not insert myself too much into the legal stuff that came up (but sometimes couldn't help it!) but I finally figured I should just get verified so I can try to help answer any questions.

A bit of background...after undergrad, I got a Masters in Criminal Justice with an emphasis in Criminal Behavior Analysis, so I have some in-depth understanding in that area. I also spent a few years working as a case manager at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and several of my cases were/are featured on Websleuths...that's how I first came across this site.

My area of legal practice is actually criminal prosecution...all my experience is in the DA's Office. I practice in California. I'm happy to do what I can to help. :)
 
  • #832
Check out NUA around the 2-min mark looking over at CW as he lies about SW going to a ‘friend’s house’. She knows it’s complete BS...
yup lol
 

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  • #833
  • #834
ok, so why use the term mistress at all?
If he is separated, going through the divorce wouldn't she just be the new girlfriend then? I just found the term odd.

In the United States, the definition of mistress is pretty much defined as somebody having sexual relations with somebody who's married.

Which he was.

Even if he was separated the contract of marriage is still not over ( which I found out over the top that she referred to marriage as a contract in her interview, so she would know better than anyone else that contractually she was defined as a mistress)
 
  • #835
I am thinking that our morality is a pretty new thing.
For centuries, people were making human sacrifices, killing virgins, killing firstborns, raping and killing enslaved prisoners. The morality as we see it is a pretty new trait.

(An example - a totally different condition, dyslexia, looks like a disability only till we remember how recently the alphabet was invented. 6-7 th B.C.? A tiny spot on the line of human history. Not all brains have adapted).

So if we assume that the first tribes who went away from sacrificing their firstborns did it about 3000 years ago, and in many other groups sacrifice continued, heck, the Vikings continued it in 2nd millennium AD, maybe it is easier to assume that not everyone is born with the morals? CW failed to escape the legal consequences, good, but the fact that he failed at morality? Maybe not so uncommon.

CW was taking good care of his kids because life with his sexual partner SW demanded it. His new sexual partner NK was seemingly disinterested in his kids. Financially it was easier to live without this burden. Off with the kids.

I think it is not his mom's fault. One of the parents must have passed over these genes to him. Something was off. Maybe soon we shall find out what area of the brain is over/underdeveloped in all these serial killers or FAs. Not today yet.
I do believe theres something to that - a group of people that haven't fully evolved.

I think they are born that way, but a difficult childhood can make an already bad thing worse.

We certainly see a lot of cases where murderers came from abusive homes or experienced a huge trauma, but I think they just get the most attention. It makes it easier to understand if you can say "oh..that's why they're like that", but I have read plenty of cases of arsonists, animal killers, etc that came from good homes with parents that were really trying. Unfortunately there are not good resources for families that have to raise a child with these issues.

I think most resources say it's something like 1 in 100 people are a physcho/sociopath, but one book I read says it's more like 1 in 25. That's a big number. They don't all turn into criminals.

Most households have at least some level of dysfunction. A lot of people were abused or neglected, thankfully most don't end up dumping their kids in oil.

If you search around on the internet you can find personal accounts of people with an antisocial personality disorder that are honest - they had a good home, their parents love them. They are aware they are different and have to work to fit in. It's fascinating stuff.

In the case of CW though, it's clear his family is a huge piece of the puzzle. They are an incredibly toxic group of people.
Moo
 
  • #836
Thanks, @Tricia ! Sorry for the delayed response, I was decorating the house for Christmas today, and the 8 ft. tree took more time than I expected! As I was decorating it, though, I couldn't help but think of Bella and Cece, and how they would and should be decorating a Christmas tree with all their favorite ornaments right about now. What an absolutely unnecessary, evil waste of life.

As Tricia mentioned, I've been here for several years, but usually have been a lurker, until the Watts case. I tried to not insert myself too much into the legal stuff that came up (but sometimes couldn't help it!) but I finally figured I should just get verified so I can try to help answer any questions.

A bit of background...after undergrad, I got a Masters in Criminal Justice with an emphasis in Criminal Behavior Analysis, so I have some in-depth understanding in that area. I also spent a few years working as a case manager at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and several of my cases were/are featured on Websleuths...that's how I first came across this site.

My area of legal practice is actually criminal prosecution...all my experience is in the DA's Office. I practice in California. I'm happy to do what I can to help. :)

Welcome! What a background! So glad to have you verified! :):):)
 
  • #837
She's super organized!!!
Yeah, I don't think the FBI teaches to use Pinterest to organize stuff lol

Did anybody else notice that the same shirt that he had on during the interviews in the media on Tuesday is the same shirt he was arrested in on Wednesday? I still want to know who purchased that shirt because I have doubts that his wife did for some reason,
 
  • #838
Okay, that screenshot made me burst out laughing! I would've called it side-eye before but your screenshot captures NUA giving him full-face-forward WTF-eye... And CW's posture! Guilty and caught!! LOL
 
  • #839
We're only seeing what the media is editing and releasing. I imagine there is video of him actually being arrested before this clip. Maybe we will see it. I also know the pod people groups have submitted their own CORA requests, so we'll see if someone outside of MSM gets a hold of the materials and uploads them.
Yes there is footage of the arrest and when they got to the jail.
 
  • #840
Well....it’s hard to believe anybody could do that to their family, so it’s hard to blame anybody for not being able to say someone is 100% guilty without all the facts. I think it’s great so many slid off the fence right from the get go, but I don’t see the point in continuing to rub it in to those who didn’t. jmo

Oh no. For me it has nothing to do with rubbing it in. It has to do with hypocrisy and cruelty.

Because in every case there are varying opinions and sometimes surprising conclusions. Some are right about what happened right off the bat and others aren't. For example, I was stunned that Katlynn Cargill had been involved in drugs. When posters suggested that I was defensive for her.

I was also super shocked that Jessica Ridgeway's killer was a teenager. Some astute posters had that sense early on and that seemed impossible to me.

No, I understand that we all aren't going to be accurate in our first impressions and probably the majority of the time I too need more to form a strong opinion.

In fact, this was actually one of the few cases where it was certain to me very early on.

It was also the first case where I saw such intense victim bashing and support of victim bashing via tons of "likes", under the guise of being "open minded" or on the fence (which mostly seemed to consist of only supporting arguments about how evil or bad or unstable Shanann was. Isn't on the fence supposed to be about both sides of a case and not just one?).

This case was obvious, IMO. There was an incredible amount of facts. But most important, logic had to be thrown out the window, including (but not at all limited to) things like you noted today- how a guilty person and how an innocent person respond, essentially. And how parents who are bonded and love their kids react when those kids are missing or have been killed.

More important, it became quite clear as time went on, since there was no logical alternative, IMO, as to how this man could possibly be innocent, that fence sitting and open-mindedness was actually primarily fueled by petty, mean girl gossip, cruel and baseless innuendo and the nasty whisperings of one who clearly loathed Shanann and had every reason to make things up or view things from a dysfunctional, distorted perspective.

That was unique about this case and it was utterly destructive to the family who knew about it and suffered. That upsets me.

To ignore all facts and logic as not enough but give massive, and what I think was incredibly undue consideration to nasty gossip and ridiculous judgment of an average mother, was born of pettiness and hate, IMO and so it's hard to swallow when we now see posts about, "yeah, can you believe this guy?"

No. That was the whole point. And why it was so wrong, I feel, to embrace that bashing of poor Shanann since there was nothing logical to point to her. Nothing at all except ugliness.

I can't imagine how that destroyed her family.

I don't feel I'm rubbing anything in. I feel like I'm standing up for not embracing the irrational, petty, and misogynistic bashing of victims. I hope I never see that again in the world. I mean I know we will to some degree but hopefully at least not at the level we saw in this case.

Finally, now that we have "all the facts", what is really so new? It seems like we had almost all of the facts. Not as fleshed out but we knew most of what had gone on. And what had not (like sadness, grief, concern or worry for his missing and then dead babies). As someone said, there was no real smoking gun. It's just a cumulation of circumstantial evidence that was already there.

The only thing that truly changed that was significant was the guilty plea.

In fact, right before it, some seemed to be so confident that he wasn't guilty that they fully expected a plea to lesser charges. Based on nothing at all but what I've described above.

So if in the future a guilty plea is what's needed despite a mountain of evidence, in order to conclude that there's really no reasonable doubt, because some feel drawn to blaming a victim, we are in trouble in this country when it comes to our justice system.

Because what else truly changed to slide people off their purported fences (which seemed more like heavily weighted teeter totters), besides the guilty plea?
 
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