GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #64

[MsBetsy]

Oh. I see. Just with all the lies she told it's easy to not take her word for anything.
MOO

Yes, I'm sure she wasn't their favorite witness to interview. But in the second interview he had alot more control and didn't let her ramble on as much as the first. He was definitely in charge and I think they handled it well and got exactly what they needed. I don't think they missed a thing. No way would they just "take her word." If there was any question in their mind they would have called her back and interrogated her. Imo

 

[Herat]

Hello all, thanks for all the brilliant insights and information in this tragic and dreadful case.

I was looking around at stuff that might go towards explaining Chris Watts' behaviour. I am a retired unverified social worker, and these puzzles really interest me especially as my background is in child protection, and assessing abusers was my stock in trade.
A couple of observations that I have made suggests that Watts has an attachment disorder which has already been alluded to, he is attached to no-one deeply. He may have some surface feeling for his dad, but remember that his dad didn't save him from his mum, so he is probably angry at him subconsciously.
I don't think he trusts anyone, and the reason I believe this is at very early stage of life, his needs were not mirrored by his mum who saw him as an extension of herself. If you can't resolve this very early damaging issue, the chances are that you won't meet all the other individuation processes either. (Erickson). So he was underdeveloped emotionally, and very immature. That's kind of obvious lol. A toddler in a man's body.

As a child of a narcissistic parent, he had two choices beat them or join them. We can't beat narcissists especially ones who are responsible for our needs so we are stuck as children, you enter their skewed world, or you suffer. He joined them.
I don't think he was a good parent, just based on what I observed. His behaviour was likely superficial at best, and I can image that he was not a tolerant person who actually liked chicken nuggets being thrown at him. I believe Shan'ann probably thought it was funny (I would too). He was insulted. It's sensitive to him.
He is one of those narcissists who is an angel on the street and a devil at home. I think we know that from the neighbour.

I also think Shan'nan was the subject of domestic abuse perhaps not physical, but abuse nonetheless. Her declarations of love for him reminded me of the cycle of violence, almost like she needed to to keep him calm and engaged, she was sensitive to his needs. I just wish she hadn't chosen him, his behaviour would have affected the children, but I sense Shan'ann mediated this in some way.

I am horrified at the family Watts' behaviour and think Shan'ann was brave to take it on. They are a dysfunctional family of enablers who are incapable of self reflection or the needs of others, particularly children.

Narcissism is one of those things so damaging to children, but by it's very nature it actually causes narcissism. That's why it's not unusual to find one or more in the same family.

That's it from me, hope it adds rather than detracts from the discussion.

Mr Jitty I recognise you from the MK forum.
Dave are you masquerading as Harassed Wilsod? lol

Thank you for these comments.

Having experienced a very high-functioning malignant narcissist and researching about it, and talking with friends who have disclosed they also have had experience with family members with narcissism, I really agree with your comments.

I'm convinced this is a disorder that perpetuates itself through a parent who unknowingly selects one child as more special than the others and alternately elevates and degrades that child. This family pattern is then "transmitted" to the children of this now-grown child.

Once you see the pattern, it's amazing how characteristic it is in it's symptoms - like a common disease.

And I'm convinced it's incurable in the sense that the narcissist can never see themselves as flawed. It's always someone else's fault or persecution. I'm also convinced that SW endured a lot of very latent narcissistic abuse from CW.

 

[MsBetsy]

He said "her", but given the context, and what finally sounded like actual crying, I think he was referring to NK...

I guess I'll have to listen to it again. If the context was about the affair maybe he was talking about her. I thought he may have been talking about the girls. I remember him saying those were my babies or something.

 

[Thinker Belle]

Do we know if CW had any legitimate friends of his own? SW was surrounded by people that seemed to genuinely care for and love her while CA also appeared to be surrounded by people yet no one was truly close to him. Maybe that was why he thought he could get away with this. In his sociopathic mind, he didn’t connect that people would actually start looking for SW immediately because he can’t fathom what it’s like to truly care for another individual in a manor that is not self-seeking. He honestly seems void of any human emotion at all.

 

[Layla123]

Hello all, thanks for all the brilliant insights and information in this tragic and dreadful case.

I was looking around at stuff that might go towards explaining Chris Watts' behaviour. I am a retired unverified social worker, and these puzzles really interest me especially as my background is in child protection, and assessing abusers was my stock in trade.
A couple of observations that I have made suggests that Watts has an attachment disorder which has already been alluded to, he is attached to no-one deeply. He may have some surface feeling for his dad, but remember that his dad didn't save him from his mum, so he is probably angry at him subconsciously.
I don't think he trusts anyone, and the reason I believe this is at very early stage of life, his needs were not mirrored by his mum who saw him as an extension of herself. If you can't resolve this very early damaging issue, the chances are that you won't meet all the other individuation processes either. (Erickson). So he was underdeveloped emotionally, and very immature. That's kind of obvious lol. A toddler in a man's body.

As a child of a narcissistic parent, he had two choices beat them or join them. We can't beat narcissists especially ones who are responsible for our needs so we are stuck as children, you enter their skewed world, or you suffer. He joined them.
I don't think he was a good parent, just based on what I observed. His behaviour was likely superficial at best, and I can image that he was not a tolerant person who actually liked chicken nuggets being thrown at him. I believe Shan'ann probably thought it was funny (I would too). He was insulted. It's sensitive to him.
He is one of those narcissists who is an angel on the street and a devil at home. I think we know that from the neighbour.

I also think Shan'nan was the subject of domestic abuse perhaps not physical, but abuse nonetheless. Her declarations of love for him reminded me of the cycle of violence, almost like she needed to to keep him calm and engaged, she was sensitive to his needs. I just wish she hadn't chosen him, his behaviour would have affected the children, but I sense Shan'ann mediated this in some way.

I am horrified at the family Watts' behaviour and think Shan'ann was brave to take it on. They are a dysfunctional family of enablers who are incapable of self reflection or the needs of others, particularly children.

Narcissism is one of those things so damaging to children, but by it's very nature it actually causes narcissism. That's why it's not unusual to find one or more in the same family.

That's it from me, hope it adds rather than detracts from the discussion.

Mr Jitty I recognise you from the MK forum.
Dave are you masquerading as Harassed Wilsod? lol

I thought it was very interesting that 4 1/2 year old, Bella, didn’t want anything to do with CW when they were in North Carolina. I know toddlers often have mommy attachments, but have you come across 4 1/2 year olds rejecting their fathers? Is that normal? Or a sign that something might be wrong?

 

[MassGuy]

Do we know if CW had any legitimate friends of his own? SW was surrounded by people that seemed to genuinely care for and love her while CA also appeared to be surrounded by people yet no one was truly close to him. Maybe that was why he thought he could get away with this. In his sociopathic mind, he didn’t connect that people would actually start looking for SW immediately because he can’t fathom what it’s like to truly care for another individual in a manor that is not self-seeking. He honestly seems void of any human emotion at all.

From what we have been able to gather, it appears that any friendships that he had were superficial ones.

He wouldn’t have been able to connect with anyone on a deeper level, and likely didn’t want to.

He was nothing more than a facade, and didn’t want people to see through that.

 

[MsBetsy]

Do we know if CW had any legitimate friends of his own? SW was surrounded by people that seemed to genuinely care for and love her while CA also appeared to be surrounded by people yet no one was truly close to him. Maybe that was why he thought he could get away with this. In his sociopathic mind, he didn’t connect that people would actually start looking for SW immediately because he can’t fathom what it’s like to truly care for another individual in a manor that is not self-seeking. He honestly seems void of any human emotion at all.

He had one friend that his parents referred to as his good friend, but even he didn't seem to know him very well. I think it's true that he really did not connect with people, and I think that's why he didn't anticipate all the immediate concern for Shanann.
He just seemed to kind of drift through life going through the motions, imitating what he learned to be normal human behavior. He was quiet, always compliant, and enjoyed being seen as the good guy. I guess it was bound to end sometime.
If he had had a different family, or even the right relationship after he left home, or got therapy or help or something at a younger age, maybe things would have been different. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I thought it was very interesting that 4 1/2 year old, Bella, didn’t want anything to do with CW when they were in North Carolina. I know toddlers often have mommy attachments, but have you come across 4 1/2 year olds rejecting their fathers? Is that normal? Or a sign that something might be wrong?

I think little ones are very good at sensing when a parents love is not genuine. He had already begun distancing himself from them at that point, and she may have picked up on that. It must have been a stark contrast to Shananns love for her babies. Imo

 

[MassGuy]

I think little ones are very good at sensing when a parents love is not genuine. He had already begun distancing himself from them at that point, and she may have picked it up. It must have been a stark contrast to Shananns love for her babies. Imo

That’s certainly possible.

It’s also possible that he began to lose his temper with them.

 

[Jennifer17]

He had one friend that his parents referred to as his good friend, but even he didn't seem to know him very well. I think it's true that he really did not connect with people, and I think that's why he didn't anticipate all the immediate concern for Shanann.
He just seemed to kind of drift through life going through the motions, imitating what he learned to be normal human behavior. He was quiet, always compliant, and enjoyed being seen as the good guy. I guess it was bound to end sometime.
If he had had a different family, or even the right relationship after he left home, or got therapy or help or something at a younger age, maybe things would have been different. Imo

BBM. He had no hope of growing up normally in that family IMO. His mother and sister seem emotionally immature to me. The nut episode was an immature power play to me.

 

[human]

We have told you, over and over and over again. He has some type of defect like the other FA’s where they don’t form the same enotional bonds and attachments like other people. Chris Coleman strangled his 9 and 12 year old boys and his wife.

Some of us have a harder time wrapping our heads around this. It is so inconceivable to me that he could do this to his little girls. A wife I can understand. Little children? Not yet for me.

 

[Layla123]

He had one friend that his parents referred to as his good friend, but even he didn't seem to know him very well. I think it's true that he really did not connect with people, and I think that's why he didn't anticipate all the immediate concern for Shanann.
He just seemed to kind of drift through life going through the motions, imitating what he learned to be normal human behavior. He was quiet, always compliant, and enjoyed being seen as the good guy. I guess it was bound to end sometime.
If he had had a different family, or even the right relationship after he left home, or got therapy or help or something at a younger age, maybe things would have been different. Imo

Maybe that explains how clueless CW was when he accepted the Thayers’ invitation to spend the second night his family was missing at their house, or how inappropriate and suspicious his behavior seemed to them. He didn’t know the correct motions to act out when your family goes missing.

 

[human]

I just watched the slowed down video of Chris dragging Shannan to his truck.

I hope every time he closes his eyes to sleep, he sees Shannan, Bella and Ceces beautiful faces, I hope every time he breathes he smells Shannans perfume and the precious babies. I hope every time he hears a laugh, the sound of his babies playing and laughing echos in his mind, “My Daddy is my hero”. I hope every time he dreams, it’s paralyzing nightmares where he’s unable to awaken from the cold hard metal bunk as he has to gasp for air and bites his tongue so hard that he bleeds like beautiful Shannan, Bella and Ceces final moments.

I hate this man and truly hope he never has another peaceful moment in this world.

Why would he care about them? He didn’tin real life. That phase of his life is over. Now it’s time to fit into the prison system. Ho hum

 

[MassGuy]

Some of us have a harder time wrapping our heads around this. It is so inconceivable to me that he could do this to his little girls. A wife I can understand. Little children? Not yet for me.

We’re not sociopaths. We can form loving bonds with others, and don’t need to Google “When to say I love you.”

We are incapable of fully understanding him and what he did.

It’s frustrating to us all.

 

[margarita25]

Margarita! Hurry and catch up.
Did you see that the FBI lady who conducted the CW's polygraph said she did the polygraphs for the Jessica Ridgeway case? (She says it about 4:38 in the first video) That polygraph lady, Tammy, is awesome!
She was so amazing at her job and at getting CW to talk. JMO.

Here's the first polygraph video (1 of 6):

Maybe you guys already talked about this, did anyone else find it interesting/ironic that the CBI Agent Tammy conducting the polygraph is wearing black and white stripes?

 

[bonjoviblonde]

Some of us have a harder time wrapping our heads around this. It is so inconceivable to me that he could do this to his little girls. A wife I can understand. Little children? Not yet for me.

I understand but we are not like him. We are not sociopaths. For those who are still exploring the reason he did this.....is there something specific you are looking for? Is there something in the evidence you would like to see or something Chris could tell you that would then make you understand why he murdered his children?

 

[MassGuy]

I understand but we are not like him. We are not sociopaths. For those who are still exploring the reason he did this.....is there something specific you are looking for? Is there something in the evidence you would like to see or something Chris could tell you that would then make you understand why he murdered his children?

Exactly. There is never going to be that “AHA moment” here.

This is never going to make sense.

He wanted a new life, is the best I can come up with.

 

[MsBetsy]

That’s certainly possible.

It’s also possible that he began to lose his temper with them.

Yes, that's the scary part. He may not have bothered to keep up the act when he was alone with them.

 

[MassGuy]

Yes, that's the scary part. He may not have bothered to keep up the act when he was alone with them.

Yeah, I fear that he wasn’t nice to them in those final few days.

Around others he would have kept up appearances, but he had no such incentive when he was alone with them.

 

[Noreen McGurl]

Yes, Nick found it under a few pillows on the couch. Chris tried the code but it didn't work. Nichole was on the phone with Addy ( I think) and she said to try the babies due date and that worked.

Thank you so much MsBetsy! Thought I was totally losin it LOL and Gitana was asking me where I saw it and I thought if she was asking me I was really out in space so I was questioning myself and wanted to clue her in so I am so grateful ..this case has me sideways backwards and totally messed up!!!