CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[Confusion]

Some animals (and some people) won't/can't take pills. Rather than giving injections, which could cause a lot of discomfort if they needed it every day, so people choose to mix a liquid into a food or drink. :twocents:

 

[MayraMM]

I really want to see that postmortem. Was there any aspiration in her lungs? Was there trauma to the throat by something like a tube being jammed down in there. Were there any bruises on her cheeks like someone was holding her head still? Puncture wounds?

If she was conscious and force-fed this medication, I would think it would take at least 2 people to do it; one to hold her down, one to force the meds. But it's hard enough imaging one person getting in thru all that security, much less 2.

We're there any other injections she might have been taking; Vitamin B12, MVI or insulin, for instance? Something that could have been switched.

Even a bad autopsy could tell us something useful. I wonder if that's been released to the parents yet.

Edit: Wait, I forgot dad said there was ami in her stomach, so forget injection. Would have had to have been oral.

 

[Lera213]

How do you rule a suicide or accidental overdose if you don't have pills in the stomach content and at that high of levels? This to me shows that the coroner is incompetent. CBI should check what this guy drinks or smokes on his breaks. Maybe too much formaldehyde. /sarcasm I'm still upset

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Does ami have an enteric coating?

 

[Confusion]

Does ami have an enteric coating?

I don't believe so because I'm pretty sure it's okay to split them in half.

 

[txsvicki]

This sounds awful, but are horses given meds by suppository? A person could have some meds put into food secretly then when asleep the large doses inserted rectally. A liquid med could be mixed with coconut oil or something and formed into suppositories.

 

[NancyA]

I was invited to stop by and I'm picking my way seeing where I can answer a question or two. You are so right about the medical complexity. An internist I think is quite brilliant set out to answer it all in simple terms for me and fifteen minutes later was saying, wow this gets very complex in a hurry! Kudos to anyone that can figure it out correctly. Even our experts don't completely agree but there is a complete consensus the the Amitriptyline is what killed her and it was a very large, one time dose.

Thank you for taking the time to come by here and respond to some of the many many questions we have. In turn, I hope this site may prove useful to you in maybe helping find some answers to some of your own questions, as you have already noted, we have some exceptionally well-qualified posters here and not just in the medical field.

Like everyone else here, I am extremely sorry for the loss of your daughter, Morgan, my condolences to you and your wife.

 

[rollinginit]

This will teach me to actually go to sleep. Now I have 10 pages to process of some amazing information. Good discussion everybody.

I'm glad to see morgansfather on here.

 

[21merc7]

This will teach me to actually go to sleep. Now I have 10 pages to process of some amazing information. Good discussion everybody.

I'm glad to see morgansfather on here.

Lol, I know. I just got caught up.

It is interesting that the meds were also in her stomach. This does suggest food or drink to me.

Morgan's Father,

Please know we all are very, very sorry for your loss.

Our questions are not intended to upset. This is what we do for every case that comes across the board. We are a curious bunch, and we like to see all angles, and try to piece it all together. So, please do not be offended, shocked or hurt by anything we may say. We too would like to know just what happened to such a lovely and gifted young lady.

Thank you for joining and answering our many questions, you have already cleared up some big ones!

 

[NancyA]

I'm finding all this drug talk fascinating, loving the experts here bouncing ideas and questions off each other.

I have a question about the 'cumulative effect' - the only drug familiar to me that I knew was cumulative before now was acetominophen (paracetamol in the UK, Tylenol here). I always understood, wrongly I guess, that it built up over time in the organs - ie stayed in the body forever - which is why it is dangerous to take it continuously for long periods of time even if you stay within the 'safe' daily dosage. Reading here I'm realising that 'cumulative' probably doesn't mean what I've always thought it means and to discover also that one drug can metabolize into another drug altogether that's mind-boggling!

Google is NOT being my friend in this instance since all I'm getting is pages and pages of words I can't even pronounce let alone understand or a very bald definition which doesn't really explain much:

"Cumulative effect: the state at which repeated administration of a drug may produce effects that are more pronounced than those produced by the first."

So I'm thinking the answer to the question I was going to ask: would the prescribed ami Morgan had been taking 2 years earlier have built up in her system and contributed to the high readings - is 'no'.

But that definition raises another question though - if Morgan had taken some ami during the stalking period would succeeding doses or, more specifically, one sudden higher dose take effect quicker than normal and produce a more pronounced reaction to it?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can make sense of and answer my question.

 

[21merc7]

Thanks for asking about cumulative Nancy A. I could not think of the right term for it, but would also like to know.

 

[Confusion]

I'm finding all this drug talk fascinating, loving the experts here bouncing ideas and questions off each other.

I have a question about the 'cumulative effect' - the only drug familiar to me that I knew was cumulative before now was acetominophen (paracetamol in the UK, Tylenol here). I always understood, wrongly I guess, that it built up over time in the organs - ie stayed in the body forever - which is why it is dangerous to take it continuously for long periods of time even if you stay within the 'safe' daily dosage. Reading here I'm realising that 'cumulative' probably doesn't mean what I've always thought it means and to discover also that one drug can metabolize into another drug altogether that's mind-boggling!

Google is NOT being my friend in this instance since all I'm getting is pages and pages of words I can't even pronounce let alone understand or a very bald definition which doesn't really explain much:

"Cumulative effect: the state at which repeated administration of a drug may produce effects that are more pronounced than those produced by the first."

So I'm thinking the answer to the question I was going to ask: would the prescribed ami Morgan had been taking 2 years earlier have built up in her system and contributed to the high readings - is 'no'.

But that definition raises another question though - if Morgan had taken some ami during the stalking period would succeeding doses or, more specifically, one sudden higher dose take effect quicker than normal and produce a more pronounced reaction to it?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can make sense of and answer my question.

It would have been out of her system long before that. When you start taking an antidepressent and many other drugs, it can take weeks for them to get up to a theraputic level in your system. That's basically because the dose you take is slightly higher than the amount your body metabolizes. Once you stop taking them, it can sometimes take weeks for all traces to be out of your system, but unless there is a physical problem that keeps your body from metabalizing it, it will eventually be gone.

What I was told about the second question is that with many drugs you can build up a tolerance to them, just like with alcohol, and it will take more to achieve the same effect. With some it's possible that even after you stop using them, you keep the tolerance (or at least for a fairly long time) and it actually takes more to reach the same point. I have no idea if it's true with amitriptyline, but if it is, it would actually take longer rather than be quicker. Sorry I can't give more definite answers, but it was explained to me many years ago and it isn't the same drug that was being discussed.

As always, my opinions sprinkled with my typos.

 

[NancyA]

It would have been out of her system long before that. When you start taking an antidepressent and many other drugs, it can take weeks for them to get up to a theraputic level in your system. That's basically because the dose you take is slightly higher than the amount your body metabolizes. Once you stop taking them, it can sometimes take weeks for all traces to be out of your system, but unless there is a physical problem that keeps your body metabalizing it, it will eventually be gone.

What I was told about the second question is that with many drugs you can build up a tolerance to them, just like with alcohol, and it will take more to achieve the same effect. With some it's possible that even after you stop using them, you keep the tolerance (or at least for a fairly long time) and it actually takes more to reach the same point. I have no idea if it's true with amitriptyline, but if it is, it would actually take longer rather than be quicker. Sorry I can't give more definite answers, but it was explained to me many years ago and it isn't the same drug that was being discussed.

As always, my opinions sprinkled with my typos.

Thanks so much for that prompt - and clear - response. I was guessing that any residual drugs from her previous - years ago - use would have already long since dissipated, you confirmed that for me. Trouble is I'm still having problems understanding 'cumulative effect' if, as you noted, the body builds up a tolerance to certain drugs necessitating higher and higher dosages - wait, strike that, the light went on as I was typing LOL. I wasn't allowing for the build-up period to therapeutic levels, you explained it so well and I missed the point, got it now. THANKS!

 

[twinkiesmom]

It might have...but it would be hard to mask that taste. Not that I've tasted it, but from what I've read today, that stuff is about as bad as anything you've ever tasted...not like "ew, tastes bad but I can get it down", rather more like the body takes over and decides to get rid of it through vomiting kind of taste.

Best-
Herding Cats

What if it was compounded? I found a company that flavors these drugs for animals with fruit flavors.

The other thing I was thinking of...a large veterinary practice would have their own in-house pharmacy. The doses for dogs and cats may be small, but they would likely have to be dispensed into the take-home size from a larger bottle. It's possible the pharmacy has the drug at a higher concentration which is mixed with water to provide to the patients.

 

[keeponsearching]

I think the stalker cleaned up the crime scene. If Morgan mistakenly overdosed, there should of been some evidence of the drugs, bottles, baggies or needles.
The house is huge in my mind, a 2200 ranch and rooms are I believe on opposite sides? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

What if it was compounded? I found a company that flavors these drugs for animals with fruit flavors.

The other thing I was thinking of...a large veterinary practice would have their own in-house pharmacy. The doses for dogs and cats may be small, but they would likely have to be dispensed into the take-home size from a larger bottle. It's possible the pharmacy has the drug at a higher concentration which is mixed with water to provide to the patients.

Why bother going through all of that? Elavil can be more commonly found circulating amongst humans; ex. High Schools, Colleges, etc

Point is this, it is not a drug that is commonly found at horse ranches.

 

[inthedark14]

A bit OT but I'm happy to see pics of Wylah and Mogwai. Id been worried that something happened to them too. I hope their Newf is ok too.

I'm thrilled MorgansFather is here and that her mom will talk to Tricia tonight.

I hope they know that even while we are throwing theories around, trying to sort this out, we are doing it with respect for both them and MI and the extraordinary life she would have had.

I'm a firm believer in the stalker(s) and I'm fearful that someone ended MI's life. I wholeheartedly thank the posters here for making me look in all directions and making me educate myself to understand their brilliant posts.

<3 to MI's family and to all the dedicated posters here. You all totally rock.

 

[21merc7]

Why bother going through all of that? Elavil can be more commonly found circulating amongst humans; ex. High Schools, Colleges, etc

Point is this, it is not a drug that is commonly found at horse ranches.

I agree. No need to stretch into fantastic realms when all this happening is a large dose of medication, easily obtained, some right in the home.

 

[Herding Cats]

Does anyone know the street name for ami? I did some searching, and got a bunch of names associated with Ecstacy...but I don't think X is the same thing at all.

Good morning all...here's hoping we have a productive day for the Ingrams!

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[SmoothOperator]

Can someone post what amounts Of amitriptyline were present in Morgans blood that was tested within 5 hours of her passing