CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[Tawny]

I posted this before, but since we are on the subject of the pathologist's letter, I want to remind everyone that there had been reported cognitive impairment in M from the CO poisoning, and according to the same report, the hyperbaric treatment helped alleviate some of the symptoms (inferring that it did not help in all the symptoms, nor cure all of one symptom), so she could have had residual stomach pain, headache, and cognitive impairment.

An uncommon side effect of chronic CO poisoning is: "A more unusual carbon monoxide poisoning symptom is an unexplained sense of a presence or something is watching. Many ghost houses have been found to have carbon monoxide leaks - usually from cracks/partial blockages in old chimneys and faulty boilers." http://www.carbon-monoxide-survivor.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-symptoms-multiple-exposures.html

Does anyone know if the rest of the family had suffered the CO poisoning, as well?

This has been seriously nagging at me for days. Now, I don't want anyone to take this as me calling ANY members of their family liars or saying they are crazy. It's simply speculation!

M had been treated for carbon monoxide poisoning before.
They rented/leased that home.
Were the (I think it was) faulty flues that caused the carbon monoxide issue ever repaired??

Is it possible the entire family, at least the 3 still living at home anyway, were suffering the ill effects of severe carbon monoxide poisoning? The paranoia (again, not being negative toward them, either way it's a tragedy), the feeling of being harassed/watched, and M's deteriorating health, both mental and physical?

I almost don't want my theory to be true, but then the alternate suspicion (a true murder) is terrifying. *sigh*

I hope we get some answers. My heart goes out to T and the rest of the family

 

[itsreenw]

FWIW, In January I found out I have congenital spinal stenosis. I am 45 and have never had symptoms until this year. It causes excrutiating nerve pain. I don't like to take pain meds because of the addictive nature of them, and have expressed that to my doctor on multiple occassions. I had to take something during the 4 weeks I was experiencing the pain and asked what I could take that was mild. Well, everyone's system is different.

My doctor first prescribed me Flexeril. I slept for literally 24 hours after my first dose. I told him I didn't like taking it. He prescibed me a variety of pain meds which I either tried once or twice or didnt take at all.

Finally, he prescribed me Nortryptiline (sic). It came in a box that had 5 dividers between the weekly doses which I was supposed to increase weekly until I found a comfortable dose. For instance, the 1st week, I was supposed to take 1 pill per day. If that didn't work, on week 2 I was supposed to increase the dosage to 2 pills a day, 3rd week 3 pills a day, etc...until I got to 5 pills a day. Mind you, you have to know how much is too much so you don't OD. The pills were green capsules. I don't recall the dosage of each pill.

I had never heard of the drug and called my brother who is a nurse. I told him what the Dr. gave me and he said it was normally used as a psychiatric drug. In small doses its used for nerve pain. I refused to take those. SO, I had 100+ Nortryptilne pills, plus the Flexeril, the Norco and the Vicodin the doctor prescribed...whatever it took to get me off the phone each time I called to ask what else I could do for the pain.

While the focus has been on using the large doses on animals, I believe if that was what M died from, it was possibly a person that had a muscle or nerve condition that just had a lot of drugs. i'm skipping over most of the drug posts because I dont understand them anyway.

 

[Tawny]

Also, hi everyone, I'm new!

 

[bearx]

This has been seriously nagging at me for days. Now, I don't want anyone to take this as me calling ANY members of their family liars or saying they are crazy. It's simply speculation!

M had been treated for carbon monoxide poisoning before.
They rented/leased that home.
Were the (I think it was) faulty flues that caused the carbon monoxide issue ever repaired??

Is it possible the entire family, at least the 3 still living at home anyway, were suffering the ill effects of severe carbon monoxide poisoning? The paranoia (again, not being negative toward them, either way it's a tragedy), the feeling of being harassed/watched, and M's deteriorating health, both mental and physical?

I almost don't want my theory to be true, but then the alternate suspicion (a true murder) is terrifying. *sigh*

I hope we get some answers. My heart goes out to T and the rest of the family

Holy cow, I somehow missed the info in the post you quoted. Oh, oh my.

I don't know how long they had been in that home or where the exposure happened but I have been wondering how only 1/3 of the family living together could have any effects...

 

[21merc7]

Also, hi everyone, I'm new!

:welcome:

 

[Tawny]

I don't know how long they've lived there, so my theory could be completely moot! Anyone know how many years they've been in that home? You guys seem to pick up a lot more than I have been able to

 

[MayraMM]

Holy cow, I somehow missed the info in the post you quoted. Oh, oh my.

I don't know how long they had been in that home or where the exposure happened but I have been wondering how only 1/3 of the family living together could have any effects...

I think they were at the house 6 years? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong), and the CO poisoning happened 8 years before, when M was 12, so I would assume a different house.

I would love to hear from Morgansdad about that incident of CO poisoning. There's no place that says other family members did not get sick. But it also doesn't say they did. I've been curious about this for a while now.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I noticed a lot of posters discussing what quantity of meds she would have had to take to produce the high levels in the autopsy results. I came across this article. It is way above my head but I thought maybe others with more knowledge may understand it better.

I apologize for my ignorance if it is completely irrelevant.

Case 6 discusses amitriptyline.

From the table in the article:

Estimating antemortem drug concentrations from postmortem blood samples: the influence of postmortem redistribution

Comparison of postmortem peripheral blood (PM)/perimortem (AM) plasma ratios with C/P ratios for a selection of drugs

Drug PM/AM C/P‡ C/P range‡
Amitriptyline 3.9 2.9 0.9–13.9

http://jcp.bmj.com/content/53/4/282.full

 

[gitana1]

I'm wondering if when the I's had quiet nights is when it snowed. Stalker's tracks in the snow would be a dead giveaway or will we learn in later blog post of foot tracks in the snow?

Right, we're not up to snowy weather yet, are we?

But does the weather service keep a record of rainfall?

Yes, and I looked on the Farmer's Almanac for every day in their zipcode, from October 1, 2011 to the day Morgan died. No discernible snowfall at all during that time period. A few days that reported some snow and/or ice pellets but the temp. did not seem low enough to sustain any snowfall on the ground and no precipitation inches were reported. http://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/search-results/

Morgan died on December 1, 2011, just before the season of heavy snowfall would have begun, if they have such a season. Just before tracks would have been easily seen in piles of snowfall.

I'm thinking she could have been looking forward to a time of some peace from stalking, and that's exactly when she died. But I'm not sure whether Carbondale is a place that gets tons of snowfall. I have seen it described as a high desert, with snow one moment and t-shirt weather the next, on the same day. It's coldest average temps are in Dec.-March, but I can't figure out the snowfall patterns.

Also, hi everyone, I'm new!

:welcome4:

 

[21merc7]

I noticed a lot of posters discussing what quantity of meds she would have had to take to produce the high levels in the autopsy results. I came across this article. It is way above my head but I thought maybe others with more knowledge may understand it better.

I apologize for my ignorance if it is completely irrelevant.

Case 6 discusses amitriptyline.

From the table in the article:

Estimating antemortem drug concentrations from postmortem blood samples: the influence of postmortem redistribution

Comparison of postmortem peripheral blood (PM)/perimortem (AM) plasma ratios with C/P ratios for a selection of drugs

Drug PM/AM C/P‡ C/P range‡
Amitriptyline 3.9 2.9 0.9–13.9

http://jcp.bmj.com/content/53/4/282.full

Thank you for posting. Great find!

Unfortunately, it is all gobbeldy gook to me. Lol.

I'll wait until someone can tell us in lay person terms what was ingested and what that means in the postmortem report. Just a simple 5 year old explanation will do.

 

[21merc7]

Yes, and I looked on the Farmer's Almanac for every day in their zipcode, from October 1, 2011 to the day Morgan died. No discernible snowfall at all during that time period. A few days that reported some snow and/or ice pellets but the temp. did not seem low enough to sustain any snowfall on the ground and no precipitation inches were reported. http://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/search-results/

Morgan died on December 1, 2011, just before the season of heavy snowfall would have begun, if they have such a season. Just before tracks would have been easily seen in piles of snowfall.

I'm thinking she could have been looking forward to a time of some peace from stalking, and that's exactly when she died. But I'm not sure whether Carbondale is a place that gets tons of snowfall. I have seen it described as a high desert, with snow one moment and t-shirt weather the next, on the same day. It's coldest average temps are in Dec.-March, but I can't figure out the snowfall patterns.



:welcome4:

Oh great!

I also remember Mom said on the blog that the snow fell the day - after she was found deceased, and that Morgan had looked forward to the snow, but it was after she was found. So, no snowfall during the stalking.

ETA: Here is says a light snow began to fall on Dec. 2.

http://morganingram.com/murder.html

 

[MayraMM]

M liked the outdoors. I wonder if she was doing any hiking at high altitudes the day or so before her death. That might explain the pulmonary edema, but obviously not the cause of death.

 

[Marshmallow]

Disguises, hat down where you cannot see the face. My guess as of now.

but at some point one of the cameras or vigilent parents would have seen someone around the house or signs of someone.

 

[Marshmallow]

I was a very bad kid in high school (in the 80's). I was prescribed Elavil. I decided to try to "get high" with it. Alas, it does not make a person "high" and it is not a fun experience. I will refrain from describing due to the sensitivity of the subject at hand. Needless to say, I could have easily died, in retrospect.

Today, kids have many more drug options, they have the internet and they have the benefit of years of idiots like my teenage self trying stuff out.

This really does not seem to be a drug that kids are fooling around with at parties or trying to get high with today.



No. You're not the only one. I am on the fence about all of it. But I want to be extremely sensitive, especially if one of our posters is a parent of the victim. So I am not sure how much farther any kind of discussion that does not assume the account or beliefs of Morgan's family are 100% accurate, can really go.

I came onto this thread horrified, fascinated and scared to death by what I was reading on the blog. As a former stalking victim myself, I couldn't help but put myself in Morgan's shoes. I was about the same age when it began happening to me.

But, I rapidly found things that didn't make sense to my logical lawyer brain.

I am very willing to stay open but the circumstances essentially preclude my concerns from being analyzed in a manner that can resolve any inconsistencies, contradictions, etc.

But, what happened to Morgan is listed here as a crime and it is assumed that her death is connected to crimes against her. Thus, she is a victim on websleuths as is her family.

I surely accept that but with that I must also accept the fact that at present, it sort of makes it impossible to discover the truth.
You know what? It's frustrating to me but it's okay. It's a great site here, free of the offensiveness and nonsense of other sites. So, while I'm frustrated, I understand.

So for now, I can only hope that something breaks this case open, like a new investigation, a lawsuit, something, so that the discussion can become more productive (for me).

bolded by me, thank you for finding the words to say how I feel.

 

[bearx]

bolded by me, thank you for finding the words to say how I feel.

It's how many of us feel. I'm not sure at what point more...stuff..is allowed to be discussed. I've read the rules, but I don't know what criteria is needed to turn the tide so to speak.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I noticed a lot of posters discussing what quantity of meds she would have had to take to produce the high levels in the autopsy results. I came across this article. It is way above my head but I thought maybe others with more knowledge may understand it better.

I apologize for my ignorance if it is completely irrelevant.

Case 6 discusses amitriptyline.

From the table in the article:

Estimating antemortem drug concentrations from postmortem blood samples: the influence of postmortem redistribution

Comparison of postmortem peripheral blood (PM)/perimortem (AM) plasma ratios with C/P ratios for a selection of drugs

Drug PM/AM C/P‡ C/P range‡
Amitriptyline 3.9 2.9 0.9–13.9

http://jcp.bmj.com/content/53/4/282.full

The postmortem redistribution is yet another issue for the toxicologists to argue over.

When I went digging, I found this article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.ezproxy.welch.jhmi.edu/pubmed/1588667
Amitriptyline and amitriptyline metabolites in blood and cerebrospinal fluid following human overdose.
Bengt-Åke Hultén, Andrew Heath, Kai Knudsen, Gösta Nyberg, Charlotte Svensson, Eric Mårtensson
Clinical Toxicology Jan 1992, Vol. 30, No. 2, Pages 181-201: 181-201.

Sorry, the full text is not available free on the web, but I could email the pdf to Herding if she wants. The patients in this study took overdoses of 1000 to 5000 mg, and the highest plasma ami concentration measured was about half what was in Morgan's system (e.g., 4400 ng/mL). These were severely overdosed patients brought into the hospital alive, so no postmortem redistribution issue here. (Another point is all of these patients survived their overdoses.)

One of the questions to ask the parents tonight is if any of the toxicologists or pathologists involved estimated the ami dose Morgan received. My guess is its at least as high if not more than what this series of patients took.

 

[AbbeyR]

I am confused about the pics from the wildlife cam. It's super creepy, and it raises a lot of questions about whether/ how the stalker was able to detect and avoid the motion detectors/ cameras

* Morgan's dad (and the blog post) said that 12 photos were taken, but 8 were of him setting up the camera, which leaves the four posted on the blog.

The first 2 photos are only 1 second apart:

0:43 we see first officer in the shot, truck in the background.

00:44 2 officers in the shot, and the truck is gone. The 1st officer has walked a few steps, and the 2nd is at just about the same spot as the first officer was 1 second ago.

00:45 No shot - Why didn't it capture the officer leaving the frame?

00:46 Stalker appears - blurry and distorted. Is this from movement? No blur on officers walking, so he must be moving fast. Direction: into frame, but away from camera. Hard to tell what direction he is looking.

00:47 No shot. If he caught a glimpse of the camera, while moving quickly, one would assume he would turn around, and have to slow down or pause while locating the camera. how did he find and avoid the camera so quickly?

0:48 Camera records blur of tree, different angle, as it has been knocked slightly up and over. How did the stalker get to the camera (12 ft high) so quickly without him or object being caught on camera again?

Was the camera actually broken or just moved? Did SI notice it was broken or out of place when he went to retrieve the card, or only after he saw the pics?

* TI says in the blog post the photos are date and timestamped. But the time must be wrong, as she says the officers are at the house at 12:45 am. Is the interval correct? (Just wondering, because sometimes timestamps can be added when photos are uploaded onto a computer or website. For example, Flickr assigns 1 second intervals to photos without a date stamp, to keep your photos in their original order) If it is wrong it would be possible that the 'assault' on the camera did not happen 2 seconds after the stalker, and could even be SI moving the camera to retrieve the card.

* What about the other photos the camera didn't take? i.e. between the 8 shots taken while setting up the camera (late afternoon) and 00:45 when we see the officers leaving? For example:

- 11 pm, when TI describes motion detectors going off and then going off again as SI circles all around the house?
- arrival of officers at the house
- SI retrieving camera card

Anyway, I don't exactly know how these wildlife cameras work, and it might help to know the range, as a limited range might help explain some of my questions.

I'm curious to know what happened once they installed a better camera system... They obviously worked very hard to try to protect Morgan

 

[JBean]

It's how many of us feel. I'm not sure at what point more...stuff..is allowed to be discussed. I've read the rules, but I don't know what criteria is needed to turn the tide so to speak.

Typically we roll with LE and MSM in terms what is open for discussion.
We repsect the privacy of those that may be under suspicion but not named by LE directly or indirectly.
If an MSM source should report that someone is a POI or suspect to LE then we will usually open up the discussion to that person.
If more events are reported through MSM or in this case on the mom's blog we would probably open up the discussion to that.

Yes following a blog is an unusual foundation for a case, but in this instance it is the source of almost all the information. Please feel free to find MSM articles that add more information to the discussion.

But anything accusatory in nature towards anyone is not the style here, unless a person has been named by LE as a POI or suspect.

But as I mentioned previously, I respect the fact that some of you feel hindered in your posting and the point is taken.

I hope we can get past posting about it in the thread, though.

TIA

 

[rollinginit]

AbbeyR. Those are very good questions.

The only thing I could come up with is using my hubby's wildlife camera as an example. He can walk in the picture to lay some deer corn down. It will snap his picture as soon as he walks in view. Say he's out there for 2 minutes. It will snap him again. Then the picture will snap and nobody will be there. So it does not snap them in fast movement (like sports pictures) there seems to be some sort of processor delay. (I think you can read back and morgansfather explains)

Sometimes we would get tons of pictures with nothing on them. Some times it would be just the leg of a deer walking out of frame.

 

[rollinginit]

Here's one of the most popular brands of wildlife cameras. They are found in most walmarts, targets, etc. For the more high tech, you usually have to go to a sports store or hunting store. There seems to be a problem with "motion blur" on these cameras that they are working on (from what I read on amazon reviews) that is the biggest complaint.

Anyway, you can click on the camera and read the specs on these cameras.
http://www.wildgameinnovations.com/products/game-scouting-cameras.html