CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[Cazzie]

raine...not bad...such compassion, much needed in this crazy world...thank you for doing that for them.... :hug:

/OT (but is compassion really ever off-topic?)

I'm also interested to hear from the legal pros...given the autopsy/updated report, tox report, and 2nd opinion (Dr. Doberson) report...what options do you think the I's have?

Or do we need to keep waiting for the police reports, etc.? And are they public?

 

[MayraMM]

After looking over the tox screen and the autopsy report, I'm satisfied he did a thorough job in the post (besides not testing the gastric contents, which is kind of understandable, considering he was under the impression M was still taking amitriptyline). There were no signs of trauma or sexual assault. I'm more convinced than ever that she committed suicide. How horrible for the family, but I hope they find resolution somehow.

One thing I do find interesting is the lividity suggested she was lying on her back, but didn't mom say she found M curled on her side? That could suggest that she as moved. Mom finds her on her side, they flip her to her back, trying CPR I would imagine, and then some time passed before they called LE?

 

[Confusion]

I have dealt with a lot of people in my time that had diapers no family, just left there to die.. I guess that is why I have a passion for the unclaimed, I have seen these people ask about their family and no would come. I have stayed with a lot also until they passed away, I would clock out and stay with them so they would not be alone. It is a hard job, but u do fall in love with them


Oh So Sorry Off Topic, Me bad

OT too: One of my aunts was like you. She had started out working in a nursing home, but for most of her life after she quit doing that (her health was bad for most of her life), she volunteered at nursing hmes and hospitals. She'd spend a few hours a day just sitting and visiting with elderly, terminally ill patients. I asked her how she could do it, knowing they were all close to dying, and she told me that we're all going to die some day, and nobody deserves to die alone and lonely. Like you, she'd often sit with them until they passed. I'm so glad there are people like you two around, I think it's bad enough being sick and incapacitated without also being alone and lonely. MOO

 

[kimmie0313]

I think she said she went to get into her "jammers" but didn't actually say she had already changed into them. My impression was that M was mad at home and went to her room, and mom sent dad in afterwards. He found her sitting in the dark texting someone. Didn't mention clothes.

Where can I find this info plz Mayra? If you are like me I keep remembering tidbits of things I have read on the blog but have a hard time trying to find them when I go back to search:banghead: Was this the same convo with M that upset Dad?


Thanks!!

 

[steff13]

Where can I find this info plz Mayra? If you are like me I keep remembering tidbits of things I have read on the blog but have a hard time trying to find them when I go back to search:banghead: Was this the same convo with M that upset Dad?


Thanks!!

I'm not Mayra, but I think I heard mom say that in the radio interview.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[MayraMM]

Where can I find this info plz Mayra? If you are like me I keep remembering tidbits of things I have read on the blog but have a hard time trying to find them when I go back to search:banghead: Was this the same convo with M that upset Dad?


Thanks!!

I'm thinking it was in the interview, because that's when mom was saying "jammers". It would be at the part where she describes M's last night. She was texting someone, dad apologized for barging in while she was on the phone, M said no worries, come on in (paraphrasing).

 

[Confusion]

After looking over the tox screen and the autopsy report, I'm satisfied he did a thorough job in the post (besides not testing the gastric contents, which is kind of understandable, considering he was under the impression M was still taking amitriptyline). There were no signs of trauma or sexual assault. I'm more convinced than ever that she committed suicide. How horrible for the family, but I hope they find resolution somehow.

One thing I do find interesting is the lividity suggested she was lying on her back, but didn't mom say she found M curled on her side? That could suggest that she as moved. Mom finds her on her side, they flip her to her back, trying CPR I would imagine, and then some time passed before they called LE?

I think the EMTs were there earlier, but from the Sheriff's Report, it sounds like the police themselves weren't informed until after she had been pronounced dead and they had done a check for drugs, etc.

I agree that he doesn't sound as unethical as he had been made to sound, but I'm still not 100% sure it was suicide. He did say that if there was any proof that someone else had been in the house, he'd change it to homicide. I just wish there was a way to know without a doubt that she didn't have the drugs in her system, or at least most of them, before she got home. It sounds like she was only home for about 1/2 hour or so before her parents went to bed. There's also still the possiblity that she had been given something that was supposed to help her sleep, but whoever mixed it (her or someone else) didn't know what they were doing. Accidental death by OD isn't totally unheard of.

 

[MayraMM]

I think the EMTs were there earlier, but from the Sheriff's Report, it sounds like the police themselves weren't informed until after she had been pronounced dead and they had done a check for drugs, etc.

I agree that he doesn't sound as unethical as he had been made to sound, but I'm still not 100% sure it was suicide. He did say that if there was any proof that someone else had been in the house, he'd change it to homicide. I just wish there was a way to know without a doubt that she didn't have the drugs in her system, or at least most of them, before she got home. It sounds like she was only home for about 1/2 hour or so before her parents went to bed. There's also still the possiblity that she had been given something that was supposed to help her sleep, but whoever mixed it (her or someone else) didn't know what they were doing. Accidental death by OD isn't totally unheard of.

The ME also mentioned her fingernails, and doesn't say that any were cut.

Anyway, her last texts would give us an idea if she went to bed or stayed up texting someone. She could have still been clothed.

I was wondering if the time lapse, and therefore the time for lividity to set in while she was on her back, wasn't used by the parents to clean up. That's often the case in suicides. The family doesn't want embarrassing items found, or whatever. They call other family members. Gather their mental fortitude to deal with what lies ahead, etc. It would also explain why mom's initial reaction on finding M was not of murder, despite the stalking. If there was a note or other sign left by M, mom wouldn't question the COD until it was suggested later.

Just my opinion, but it would fit well with the autopsy findings.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

According to the toxicology report the following are the drugs tested positive for:

• Cotinine - nicotine- a smoker?
• Nortiptyline - antidepressant- nortiptyline treatment of major depression and childhood nocturnal enuresis (bedwetting). In addition, it is sometimes used for chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome and migraine, and labile affect in some neurological conditions.
• Amitriptyline - antidepressant- used to ease migraines, tension headaches, anxiety attacks and some schizophrenic symptoms. It is also known to reduce aggression and violent behavior.
• Cyclobenzaprine (Brand name Flexeril) - muscle relaxant - used to relieve skeletal muscle spasms and associated pain in acute musculoskeletal conditions

Can you clarify if both Nortiptyline and Amitriptyline were given/taken?
As I understood it before, the one that's called Elavil turns into or produces the other. Are they two separate drugs in two different pills?
Or one somehow produces the other after it enters the body?

Gee, this is hard.

Also, Elavil seems pretty dangerous considering it's so common in that if one mistakenly double doses, it sounds as if it could cause an overdose especially if someone takes other drugs as well.

When Morgan was known to take it, she started with 10 mg. and was moved up to 25 mg. dose. I saw online that a dose can be higher than that so I suppose the danger depends on what dose one takes on a daily basis. Still, not a drug you'd want to mess around with from what I've read.

 

[LadyL]

I've been going nuts trying to find where I had read about the video from the night she died. and I've had absolutely no luck. Since I can't find a link for it and it's too late to edit my own post, is there a way to have the comment removed by someone else? If so, who would I contact about it? TIA

pretty sure I read it too ... might be a comment TI made under one of the posts?

 

[kimmie0313]

I'm really leaning towards suicide sad as it is. If this is the case the big question is why? So, do u all think that the pills had been already been digested at the time of death? So, wouldn't that have to mean that she ingested the pills before coming home?

 

[concernedmother]

I dont suppose there is any way to get a report from paramedic or LE about the scene that night? Pill bottles in M bathroom etc?

 

[Jean517]

The ME also mentioned her fingernails, and doesn't say that any were cut.

I noticed that too. And her nails had clear polish with white tips. I would think any needles inserted under the fingernails would cause some bleeding and would be noticable.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Well there you go. Perhaps she was taking it for pain. That ties in with Flexeril too. So maybe she started taking it again for back pain - I speculated that she was taking Ami again for some reason and suffered from side effects - I don't think the reason matters?

Elavil is also sometimes given to help treat bulimia and other EDs. Just throwing that out there because I brought up the possibility yesterday and there was some discussion about M's appearance in the last few weeks before her death.

ETA: i was still catching up when i posted the above and had not yet read the tox report and autopsy. My theory about ED and low body weight was wrong.

I, too, am leaning heavily on this being intentional suicide. .

 

[concernedmother]

I'm really leaning towards suicide sad as it is. If this is the case the big question is why? So, do u all think that the pills had been already been digested at the time of death? So, wouldn't that have to mean that she ingested the pills before coming home?

I think she came home and took them. I think the not eating, dark circles, tired, missing her ballet, etc were clues something was going on with M. Maybe the stalking, maybe not being able to live like the rest of her friends with having to be home at 10 , maybe seeing the ex that day. Maybe she wasnt over him. Probably a combination of things. It just piled up on her. She probably had them in her medicine cabinet from when she stopped taking them.

 

[Cazzie]

I was shocked by the "18 pills of 25 mg" in the official rpt (going by memory, I'm probably wrong) based on all the discussion here about how the huge amount in her system and how it would take so many more pills...and then all the research on ami for animals...

 

[SmoothOperator]

Ia agree that there was not enough to allow for testing thru completion of a couple of the drugs..but my understanxing is that doesnt mean the amount of the drug was so little that it did not allow for testing but rather the testing of these particular drugs were only being tested via the gastric contents which is what there simply was not enough of to continue testing for more accurate amounts of the drug in her system..

Atleast thats how i understood it...

As for others who mentioned her state of dress I will say that I too was probably out of the entire autopsy and tox reports it was this piece of info that struck me the strongest..

Something happened imo not in the middle of the night but rather imo not long after she got home..

Could she have ingested or been given the drugs within minutes of her coming home and then say possibly even dead within an hours time?

Idk those clothes just really shocked me..Ill have to go back and look at the lividy and state of rigor..does anyone recall what it was by chance?as in indicative of many hours deceased and unmoved or or otherwise?

 

[Confusion]

I guess the only other issue that needs to be resolved is if there actually was a stalker, and if he/she/they could have contributed to her suicide if that was the cause of death. It's been mentioned many times that we only have one person's view of what happened, so it's possible there were things happening away from home too. She may not have wanted her parents to know about them because she was afraid they'dnever let her go anywhere at all unsupervised if they knew.

I really wish there was a way to hear what her friends thought about the whole thing; TI said that D was the only one who tried to protect her during the later time (of her friends) so it's possible that he's also the only one she told about everything that was going on. :moo:

 

[marycarney]

I dont suppose there is any way to get a report from paramedic or LE about the scene that night? Pill bottles in M bathroom etc?

That would be part of her medical record with EMS and likely HIPPA protected = except in the circumstance we discussed a thread back.

 

[Cazzie]

Mom says she was on Elavil/ami for possible carbon monoxide poisoning (leak in furnace) that happened when Morgan was 12. And she stopped taking it 1 1/2 years before she died.
IIRC.