"Damning Proof Found"

[Texana]

I love dogs and trust dogs but I am skeptical of cadaver dogs picking up on a scent. When it works to finding a body I think what special, wonderful creatures but when it comes to picking up on a scent of a body and no body is found I have to put that aside as 'real' evidence.

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

 

[colomom]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree, these dogs are AMAZING. I read (and I am too darn tired to look for a link and it's my birthday

) but I read that one of these dogs was able to detect blood in a car that had been burned....

AWESOME!!!

 

[mic730]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

I don't doubt what you say for a second! I grew up in the South and still live in the South and I love dogs. I am suspect of any eyewitness testimony and I am also suspect of any dog hitting on a cadaver scent with no cadaver found. Scent dog testimony is very often reviewed before the courts in the US before being allowed and I thing that is the right thing.

 

[aj1020]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree, these dogs are AMAZING. I read (and I am too darn tired to look for a link and it's my birthday

) but I read that one of these dogs was able to detect blood in a car that had been burned....

AWESOME!!!

HAPPPYYYYYYYYY BIRTHDAYYY! :HappyBday

cheers to that!

 

[MrsG728]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

 

[concernedperson]

I don't doubt what you say for a second! I grew up in the South and still live in the South and I love dogs. I am suspect of any eyewitness testimony and I am also suspect of any dog hitting on a cadaver scent with no cadaver found. Scent dog testimony is very often reviewed before the courts in the US before being allowed and I thing that is the right thing.

Mic, cadaver scent can be all consuming depending on the days of decomposition and where the scent was detected. If the cadaver was moved after it was in the position for a time then the scent would remain for awhile. I went into a home for sale and the agent was baking chocolate chip cookies and burning candles and I could still smell decomposition of the owner who had passed away some time before. It permeated the walls. Now, with this said, it was an enclosed space so out in the open the scent would travel to the lowest point.

 

[Texana]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

Well, we don't know about the Pope. He's probably far more used to human failings than one might think--after all, he runs the Vatican and has survived church politics! :blushing:

Seriously, I would love to see some hard-core evidence that exonerates the McCanns. I felt the same way about Scott Peterson. I kept examining the evidence desperately hoping for something that proved innocence, not guilt.

I've been the same way with the McCanns. I just can't come up with anything that proves they were not involved, but so much else being reported that shows they were.

They are an attractive, well educated, personable couple. It is easier to believe in a faceless evil abductor, than it is to believe two such people could make a stupid or arrogant mistake, and then try to cover it up in the mistaken belief they were doing the right thing.

 

[poco]

Just reported on Nancy Grace that the McCann's have five days to return to Portugal.

 

[MrsG728]

Well, we don't know about the Pope. He's probably far more used to human failings than one might think--after all, he runs the Vatican and has survived church politics! :blushing:

Haha, true. :crazy:

MG

 

[englishleigh]

Just reported on Nancy Grace that the McCann's have five days to return to Portugal.

Or what?? British police will arrest them and drag them there?

 

[mic730]

Mic, cadaver scent can be all consuming depending on the days of decomposition and where the scent was detected. If the cadaver was moved after it was in the position for a time then the scent would remain for awhile. I went into a home for sale and the agent was baking chocolate chip cookies and burning candles and I could still smell decomposition of the owner who had passed away some time before. It permeated the walls. Now, with this said, it was an enclosed space so out in the open the scent would travel to the lowest point.

I believe you totally! However, I think if dogs could be that accurate we would have way more solved cases rather than 'the dog hit here'. I am just not convinced that we should trust a dog scent when it resulted in no body.

 

[colomom]

HAPPPYYYYYYYYY BIRTHDAYYY! :HappyBday

cheers to that!

Thank you very much aj1020...and I meant to post a "right on" to one of your posts...sorry I am fading fast...but I wanted to tell you that "you rock".

 

[colomom]

Watching NG now, and a woman just brought up the fridge thing. I must say that I am amazed at all of your sleuthing abilities. I didn't suspect the parents until a few weeks ago...

Now I've pieced together a whole theory based on all of yours. What horrible thoughts I am having about what happened to poor Maddie. We've been duped, and so has the Pope :banghead:

MG

OMG MG...anybody who has DE SR. on their sig is AOK in my book....

Please share your theory on the Theories thread...we need more.

Man, I missed NG again....

 

[s_finch]

For generations these dogs have been bred both in Britain and the U.S. to be trackers and earn their keep--My father is old school Depression era, and I can tell you that any animal that did not and does not "earn" its keep was an animal that at best, is/was not bred to other animals, and at worst, is/was an animal that does not last long.

Consequently, the dogs that are the best of the tracker dogs now, are typically the result of generations of breeding to maximize the survival skill of tracking, be that downed game or escaped slave. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the reality for generations of past breeds. I'm sure it's somewhat different now for owners, but still only the dogs that can prove themselves successful at tracking are the dogs that will get hired for these jobs.

The dogs that would be brought in a high profile case like this would be dogs with high success rates in the past that would justify the pay to their owners and the keep for the dogs.

I believe the dogs in this case would be more reliable witnesses than someone like Jane Tanner, who in twilight/approaching darkness claims she saw a man carrying a child around 9:15, and days later identified the man as Robert Murat carrying Madeleine.

There's even an idiom in the South, "I don't have a dog in this hunt" meaning, I don't have a personal stake in this argument or issue, and I can't justify just an opinion because I don't have a reliable advocate.

Agreeing with you Texana, cept I've always heard , "I don't have a dog in this fight"----and yes, Whoopie was right, dog fighting is very much part of the deep south heritage, right along with rooster fights (Gamecocks).

I'm not quite ready to crucify Gerry and Kate, but it certainly doesn't look good for them IMHO.

 

[Zelda]

I'm going to throw out something else. I have read unsubstantiated rumors that the car the McCanns used after Madeleine's disappearance was the same car as the one Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner used when they were in Portugal in May.

Who are the other couple?

 

[MrsG728]

OMG MG...anybody who has DE SR. on their sig is AOK in my book....

Please share your theory on the Theories thread...we need more.

Man, I missed NG again....

haha, DE sr. was a great man. I loved the movie the other nite, and added him back to my siggy. :blowkiss: The intimidator rides forever, 3 lanes wide...


I'll post my theory in the theories thread. I'm afraid it's not original; just a conglomerate of all of your brains put together. I need to know where this poor little girl is.

MG

 

[Zelda]

If Madeleine's body was stashed somewhere for 25 days and not found why would she be moved? Why not leave the body in the hiding place? If she hadn't been found in 25 days chances are she wouldn't be found. Unless the situation at the hiding place was such that she had to be moved. Like in someone's vacant house but owners were coming back.
Very sad story.

 

[Texana]

If Madeleine's body was stashed somewhere for 25 days and not found why would she be moved? Why not leave the body in the hiding place? If she hadn't been found in 25 days chances are she wouldn't be found. Unless the situation at the hiding place was such that she had to be moved. Like in someone's vacant house but owners were coming back.
Very sad story.

My question exactly, unless where she was being kept was a temporary location such as a room or car or similar location.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

I believe you totally! However, I think if dogs could be that accurate we would have way more solved cases rather than 'the dog hit here'. I am just not convinced that we should trust a dog scent when it resulted in no body.

I really don't understand your logic here. Perhaps you don't understand what a cadaver dog is trained to do. They don't just locate dead remains, They find the scent of dead remains in the air and follow that scent to its most concentrated point... which may result in a body being found or may result in a place where that body was before it was removed, which in turn may reveal evidence that points to a suspect.

For example, say a dead body was taken out of the trunk of a car and dragged or carried to a spot in a field where it was left, but later the person who dumped that body got nervous the body would be discovered, so they went back to the body, and threw it back in the trunk to be moved elsewhere. The dog would find the scent "cone" in the air and track it to the spot where the body was dumped. The dog insists this is where the body was, so the search team digs thinking the body must be in the ground... but find no body. This doesn't mean the body wasn't there, only that it HAD BEEN there but moved in such a way that the scent couldn't be followed. What the dog found was the most concentrated area of scent. The dog handler knowing this is the most conentrated area of scent knows by the dog's reaction that the body WAS there but had been moved. So the team checks around the area and finds tire tracks that may lead to identification of the car used to transport the body. Or in the dirt they find tiny scraps of decomposed material like skin or blood. They can take samples of the dirt and find that there is a high concentration of decomposed material that proves a body lay in that spot decomposing. Now they have other leads they can use like checking the shoes of certain people to see if they can match dirt or other seeds/grasses that show a certain person was in that field. They can also check whatever is on the shoes to see if there is any decomposed dead body material in the dirt or other seeds/grasses on the shoes which would identify who it was that dumped the body and/or retrieved it again to dump somewhere else.

This is how ALL dogs scent whether they're tracking prey, live fugitives on the run, dead remains, or whatever. But specialty trained dogs are dogs that have a highly developed scenting ability plus the desire to follow a particular scent without being distracted or giving up. The rest is pretty much just the training to respond to signals from and handler and give the handler signals of a find.

 

[CaliKid]

Who are the other couple?

Russell O'Brien is a doctor friend of Gerry McCann's, and along with his girlfriend, Jane Tanner (who is one of Kate McCanns's friends) have a daughter the same age as Madeleine.

On the night she disappeared, Russell O'Brien was missing for most of the time from the rest of the group at the Tapas bar, supposedly because their daughter was ill and vomiting. His gf, Jane Tanner, is the woman who claims she saw a man with "something" in a blanket; then later after a suspect emerged, she swore it was him with Madeleine. I think her testimony has almost completely been disproved.

In any case, several weeks ago the Portuguese police said that Russell O'Brien was a suspect in Madeleine's disappearance. I think he and Jane Tanner are two of the 4 people wanted back in Portugal for questioning.