• #401
Why do you think he fired behind himself? Witnesses said he fired at the officer.
How would you argue this in court as the prosecutor? I never said I thought he fired behind himself, that is a misrepresentation of my post.

From the link I just posted:

  • In its review, a Secret Service team estimated that Allen was running nine miles an hour, one person in the briefing said, and then stumbled somehow and fell a few yards from the checkpoint. That raises the question among law enforcement professionals of how a person moving that fast could have stopped and fired his weapon at an officer behind him.
 
  • #402
Why do you think he fired behind himself? Witnesses said he fired at the officer.
Video footage and ballistics evidence appear to contradict the eyewitness account.

Investigators could develop evidence establishing Allen fired his weapon and that he fired the shot that struck the agent. The investigation is ongoing. It's premature to conclude he did based on witness testimony alone.
 
  • #403
How would you argue this in court as the prosecutor? I never said I thought he fired behind himself, that is a misrepresentation of my post.

From the link I just posted:

  • In its review, a Secret Service team estimated that Allen was running nine miles an hour, one person in the briefing said, and then stumbled somehow and fell a few yards from the checkpoint. That raises the question among law enforcement professionals of how a person moving that fast could have stopped and fired his weapon at an officer behind him.
It is not a misrepresentation of your post, this is a quote from your post:
"Have you ever ran at nearly 10 mph with both hands supporting a shotgun and somehow fired behind yourself?"

Who is saying that Allen fired behind himself? I think the witnesses said he fired at the same time as the officer fired initially, which is clearly when he is in front of the officer.
 
  • #404
It is not a misrepresentation of your post, this is a quote from your post:
"Have you ever ran at nearly 10 mph with both hands supporting a shotgun and somehow fired behind yourself?"

Who is saying that Allen fired behind himself? I think the witnesses said he fired at the same time as the officer fired initially, which is clearly when he is in front of the officer.

If you read the Washington Post article that @Bodhi posted (it isn't paywalled), you can see that Cole has run past the firing officer. The shooting officer is still standing steadily, doesn't appear to have sustained a shot to the chest.

The Washington Post also could not see a muzzle flash from Cole's weapon in the video that they accessed.

b.jpg


 
  • #405
If you read the Washington Post article that @Bodhi posted (it isn't paywalled), you can see that Cole has run past the firing officer. The shooting officer is still standing steadily, doesn't appear to have sustained a shot to the chest.

The Washington Post also could not see a muzzle flash from Cole's weapon in the video that they accessed.

View attachment 663040

All that means is that the camera did not catch the muzzle flash of the shot gun. The officer is hit by a pellet, but the vest absorbs it and he maintains his focus. The other witnesses state Allen fired his gun. The officer's vest apparently shows a hit.
 
  • #406
It is not a misrepresentation of your post, this is a quote from your post:
"Have you ever ran at nearly 10 mph with both hands supporting a shotgun and somehow fired behind yourself?"

Who is saying that Allen fired behind himself? I think the witnesses said he fired at the same time as the officer fired initially, which is clearly when he is in front of the officer.
No, I never said I thought he fired behind himself. Clearly I was referring to an artcle I posted which questioned that. Anyway, how would you, as prosecutor, prove that Allen hit the officer beyond your saying "something hit" him. Would you accept that as proof to tie it to Allen's gun?
 
  • #407
All that means is that the camera did not catch the muzzle flash of the shot gun. The officer is hit by a pellet, but the vest absorbs it and he maintains his focus. The other witnesses state Allen fired his gun. The officer's vest apparently shows a hit.
Not one source has claimed that the officer was hit by a pellet. I explained yesterday that shotguns don't shoot bullets. The injury to the officer has so far been described as being caused by a bullet, or a round. Normally a person with a shotgun wound, with pellets, would show evidence of being hit by > 1 pellet. That's the point of that type of ammo.
 
  • #408
All that means is that the camera did not catch the muzzle flash of the shot gun. The officer is hit by a pellet, but the vest absorbs it and he maintains his focus. The other witnesses state Allen fired his gun. The officer's vest apparently shows a hit.
There's nothing in the screenshots to suggest that Allen raises his weapon and fires at anyone. It shows him racing at full pelt through the checkpoint. At that range, being hit by a shotgun blast would knock you off your feet, even if your bulletproof vest stopped the buckshot. We are told that the officer shot was the only one to discharge his firearm, and after the video ends that officer is behind Allen.

To be fair, turning to look behind you to fire your weapon whilst still running forwards is the sort of thing that will make you trip up and fall over, and tripping up and falling over seems to be the only reason that Allen didn't make it to the stairs down to the ballroom.
 
  • #409
Evidence collected so far, USA TODAY reported this week, indicates the only Secret Service agent who actually fired their weapon at Allen was the one who was injured as he tried to prevent what prosecutors say was an attempted assassination on Trump. The agent, who has not been identified, fired five times but did not hit the suspect.

The weapons of all of the other Secret Service agents at the scene were checked during the federal review and were never fired, according to a law enforcement source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to USA TODAY to discuss an ongoing investigation that is being conducted by the FBI and Secret Service.

Sean Curran, director of the Secret Service, said all the evidence indicates the agent was shot at "point-blank range" with a shotgun by the suspect.
 
  • #410
Video footage and ballistics evidence appear to contradict the eyewitness account.

Investigators could develop evidence establishing Allen fired his weapon and that he fired the shot that struck the agent. The investigation is ongoing. It's premature to conclude he did based on witness testimony alone.
He didn't fire his weapon at all. He ran too fast, and Secret Service fired the shot that hit one of their own. They fired and missed the 'attacker' completely. Maybe they all need better training? There was a shell in his weapon, but they say it was old, and not from the scene. He didn't actually DO anything but run through past the devices and officers.
Makes me think of the Three Stooges. MOO
 
  • #411
Secret Service needs a major clean up with an immensely strong leadership, agents with an operator mindset. What worked 10 years ago will not work today. This guy failed but it was not flawless security. The final layers managed to stop him. This article is astonishing. IMO
I hope they all learn something from this debacle. Allen even wrote in one of his notes about the lax security. I hope LE sees this as an opportunity to get it together. Allen is right. It could have been so much worse if trained militia/military had attacked. Frightening.
 
  • #412
The Justice Department on Thursday released terrifying security camera video showing suspect Cole Allen allegedly charging through the Washington Hilton Hotel security checkpoint before opening fire near the White House Correspondents' Association dinner on Saturday.

The video appears to show several clips of Allen walking through the hotel the day before the shooting.
On Saturday, video appeared to show Allen charging though the security checkpoint, shooting a U.S. Secret Service agent to his right.

The agent who was shot could be seen firing shots at Allen as he fell backward.
Other officers immediately opened fire in Allen's direction as he continued running toward the ballroom.

Prosecutors were prepared to present the video during a detention hearing Thursday morning to prove Allen was a danger to the community. However, the defense team shifted strategies, agreeing to his detention
 
  • #413
  • #414
Previous incidents were minimized, IMO.

Political violence is common these days, from threats against town election officials and school board members up to the president. American culture used to share bedrock values, but we've fractured. The public square has been replaced with silos. Stochastic speech is accepted; normalized. And so is the violence it spawns. Civility, engagement, and common purpose are not central any more. Everything is viewed as binary.

I can speak from first-hand experience that the way we choose our leaders feeds division and creates a climate ripe for violence. I'm in New Hampshire. Our beloved first-in-the-nation primary gave us easy unfiltered access to presidential candidates for a year in advance. A candidate with few resources could invest time here meeting voters in informal settings and town halls. Unknown or unlikely candidates with good ideas and an effective ground game could generate buzz and parlay a good showing in Iowa and NH onto the national stage. President Carter and Senator McCain come to mind. Average folks like me would meet and speak to candidates from all parties, often several times. We took our job of vetting candidates seriously.

From my experience, face-to-face engagement in small settings promotes civility and engagement in a way big scripted rallies cannot. Big money funneled through SuperPACs has eroded retail politics. Candidates who are well-known and well-funded now skip small town halls that are open to everyone. They jet in for huge rallies of supporters instead and repeat canned stump speeches instead of engaging. Policies are reduced to soundbites. The more outrageous the candidates comments are, the more harshly the candidate villainizes others, the more air the soundbite gets. Discussion of national priorities has devolved into a blood sport.

Political violence is the foreseeable result of eroding norms. When we eschew common ground, stoke grievance, and dehumanize those who aren't like us, disgruntled individuals and groups will act on the rhetoric. If enough of us repudiate this shift in political culture, maybe we can de-escalate the violence that pervades civic life.

All MOO.
It's truly sad and frankly, disgraceful, that people don't want to listen to each other any more. Even if I disagree with you, I want to hear your point of view, as I may not change my mind, but at least it will help me understand where you are coming from and why. Communication is key, in All relationships. Once we shut out 'the other', everyone is likely to lose. Sounds like you had a wonderful 'policy', welcoming candidates, and listening, as well as being able to share your thoughts, opinions, needs, concerns. We, in the US have gone too far from that, and I am afraid we may not get it back. The whole world is in turmoil, and we have few true leaders who want the best for All world citizens:( I do have hope in the younger people though:) Peace!
 
  • #415
Wow. Well, I suppose according to his manifesto that does make sense. He claimed he only wanted to hurt Trump or possibly the other main political figures, and didn’t want to shoot LE or anyone unrelated. He didn’t get close enough to any political figures to try.

Still shocked the building wasn’t better guarded and he could rush into it at all.
He never mentioned Trump, but only some in his administration, though he specifically said not Patel, or law enforcement, and that he hoped LE would have Bulletproof vests on, in case they got shot by accident. Whew! How about not trying to shoot anyone, doofus?!
 
  • #416
Hey Everyone.
The topic is the shooting and the shooting only. Please stay on topic.
Did I read correctly that the dinner is "resuming"?
Good reminder.
 
  • #417
Evidence collected so far, USA TODAY reported this week, indicates the only Secret Service agent who actually fired their weapon at Allen was the one who was injured as he tried to prevent what prosecutors say was an attempted assassination on Trump. The agent, who has not been identified, fired five times but did not hit the suspect.

The weapons of all of the other Secret Service agents at the scene were checked during the federal review and were never fired, according to a law enforcement source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to USA TODAY to discuss an ongoing investigation that is being conducted by the FBI and Secret Service.

Sean Curran, director of the Secret Service, said all the evidence indicates the agent was shot at "point-blank range" with a shotgun by the suspect.

So the agent fired 5 times and missed, but the suspect managed to shoot him at point blank range. This is actually embarrassing for the Secret Service imo.
 
  • #418
So the agent fired 5 times and missed, but the suspect managed to shoot him at point blank range. This is actually embarrassing for the Secret Service imo.
Not embarrassing at all. You saw the speed of the running would-be assassin as a moving target (to say the least) and also there could have been other people nearby and the SS agent had to be mindful of that as well. Fast-acting hero, IMO, whose actions caused the would-be assassin to stumble and fall and be tackled by other SS agents. Godspeed to this agent as he heals from the shot he took and the trauma experienced.
 
  • #419
He didn't fire his weapon at all. He ran too fast, and Secret Service fired the shot that hit one of their own. They fired and missed the 'attacker' completely. Maybe they all need better training? There was a shell in his weapon, but they say it was old, and not from the scene. He didn't actually DO anything but run through past the devices and officers.
Makes me think of the Three Stooges. MOO
I’ve looked at that video quite a few times. The most recent one shows the officer shooting his weapon as Allen runs past is wearing the uniform of a police officer, not Secret Service. What am I missing?
 
  • #420
DISCLAIMER: I have no dog in this fight, so to speak, so this info isn’t intended to be interpreted as me taking any "sides". I prefer having all facts out when discussing something which may trigger passionate responses from people. I feel the truth is more valuable than who might be right or wrong. I encourage all to take a look at the explanation regarding a shotgun slug, so all of us will gain some knowledge when discussing shotguns & ammunition.

Next point of contention might be the potential kickback of the shotgun, since the perp doesn’t appear to me to be traditionally shouldering the shotgun like a hunter might in the video I observed. I suggest researching the make & model used by the perp, then watching some YT videos of people hip shooting that particular shotgun. You all be the judges.

Just for clarity….far right. Zero pellets.
IMG_6740.webp


Source:
 

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