Debate Thread for Caylee is alive

[kwmred]

I have a 3 yr old grandbaby named Kailyn. Before this case I was always calling her my "Kailee Baby". I can no longer call her that.

Aww. I have three grandsons and another one on the way. The oldest lives about an hour or so away and I get him every other weekend - he's 2 1/2. I really can't say what I feel sometimes when I look at him and realize the Caylee was probably just that size. It's too heartbreaking. It's at those times that I just interupt his playing to hug him and tell him how much I love him. He probably thinks I'm nuts!

 

[catherineb]

#3 She is to scared to talk for fear someone will harm Caylee

Why would said person keep Caylee alive NOW? If they get caught, they will be in for huge kidnapping charges ....

 

[Fandy]

I just wanted to throw this out there and it probably has been covered but don't you think it's possible for her to be acting the way she does is because:

1. She really does know where she is
2. She trusts whoever she gave her to

Just a thought

JMO, Casey is not someone who has such high ethics that she will subject herself to sitting in jail, being confined to her parents house and attys office, giving up her social life. If she knew and trusted who she gave her too, she would end this charade and get back to her 22 year old social life. Even getting back at her parents wouldn't last this long.

 

[liltigress]

Because they are both so long, I'm going to give you links to two posts I made about why I think Caylee may be alive. Feel free to quote and dissect if you like:

Link 1

Link 2

:blowkiss:

I was once where you are.

I know LE can be corrupt. We've seen that with several cases. In this case, LE isn't corrupting anything that we can see, at this point. The fact they are holding their cards close instead of playing them, is shouting loud for me.

This is where Baez is playing his trump card. He is casting that edge of doubt. Which is what a good defense attorney has to do, not necessarily prove his client innocent, only give that little bit of doubt.

The girl found dead in the park...

I thought these same things at one time. I've also come to the mindset that Casey was aware of this also and timed/placed her comments to fit this, again, leaving doubt.

Casey has now told the script story and how she's afraid for Caylee's life. For one, the script and location I believe will coincide with where Caylee's body is found so the blame can be put on those players.

If Casey was afraid for Caylee's life, why party and act as if everything was normal? No script, with my child or grand child missing, will make me act normal. She was caught in lies and knows it. She created the script story to try and excuse the lies she was caught in.

Thank you for the links. I really do find your thoughts very interesting.

 

[eg@gm]

When Casey was asked when she stopped trusting Zenaida, she said it was when her phone # was no longer working. She could have said that it was when Caylee was not there when she got there to pick her up. If I were lying, I'd probably say that. But really, truthfully it probably really would have been when I tried calling her later and her phone was disconnected.

 

[eg@gm]

Why would said person keep Caylee alive NOW? If they get caught, they will be in for huge kidnapping charges ....

Better than murder charges.

 

[krimekat]

Awesome . . . the jogger murder in Blanchard Park, too, is casting doubt in my mind; possible reason Casey used the 9 June date. But, how can we negated Caylee being with Cindy at Cindy's father's care facility on Father's Day (15 June)?

I am thinking something happened 16 June right before the unanswered calls to Casey's parents: Casey was searching for help.

 

[Noway]

Does Casey give any explanation for the point of there being a script and her willingness to follow it?

They are holding Caylee ... WHY?

Because Casey hasn't done something she said she would?
Because Casey saw something she shouldn't have?

If it weren't for the forensic evidence LE says they have, I'd be more likely to believe that there was a script and a ZG with a sister S.

I can't believe that LE would say that Caylee was dead if they didn't have the evidence to prove that.

Not that I think Caylee is going to pop up in Helena, MT, with ZG and S in tow ... although stranger things have happened.

But if I lived in the areas of interest, I'd look more carefully at little girls who fit Caylee's description. Having LE say she is dead would make me not "be looking for her" ...

 

[Seranade]

I don't think it is so much the idea that many here are CONVINCED that Caylee is alive, it is that there are at least a few facts that indicate that she COULD be alive. They choose to hope that the small chance will turn out to be the miracle they hope for in this case.

My own small belief comes more from general concepts than facts:

1. A Zanaida does exist at the right place at the right time. She could easily have lied about knowing Casey, just as Casey could have lied in saying she did not recognize that ZG. While there is no evidence she ever lived at Sawgrass, it is possible that she could have been staying there in an apartment under someone else's name. It is also possible that someone else was using her name. People believe CA used this name fraudulently, why then couldn't someone else have done the same?

2. The strange story and behavior of Kiomare who had WANTED Caylee for some time. In addition to the supposed connections that posters have made between her and ZG.

3. I find the cryptic statements from JG's family to be interesting, along with the behavior of JG at the exact time of Caylee's disappearance.

4. Casey seemed to truly love Caylee, so many pictures, and Caylee looked happy in pictures with Casey. While some question this, it is NOT EASY to get a 2 1/2 to 3 year old to take dozens of pictures with someone they do not trust or feel comfortable with.

There are more, but this gets to the point. There are questions about people in this story that have no answers yet, just as there are no clear answers yet on the forensic evidence.

I agree with everything you have written here. There are just too many strange circumstances to take everything at face value.

:blowkiss:

I was once where you are.

I know LE can be corrupt. We've seen that with several cases. In this case, LE isn't corrupting anything that we can see, at this point. The fact they are holding their cards close instead of playing them, is shouting loud for me.

This is where Baez is playing his trump card. He is casting that edge of doubt. Which is what a good defense attorney has to do, not necessarily prove his client innocent, only give that little bit of doubt.

The girl found dead in the park...

I thought these same things at one time. I've also come to the mindset that Casey was aware of this also and timed/placed her comments to fit this, again, leaving doubt.

Casey has now told the script story and how she's afraid for Caylee's life. For one, the script and location I believe will coincide with where Caylee's body is found so the blame can be put on those players.

If Casey was afraid for Caylee's life, why party and act as if everything was normal? No script, with my child or grand child missing, will make me act normal. She was caught in lies and knows it. She created the script story to try and excuse the lies she was caught in.

Thank you for the links. I really do find your thoughts very interesting.

I've seen no evidence that LE in this case is corrupt either. That was a general comment as to why people shouldn't automatically give them their trust. In the second link, I explain why LE may have good reason's for obsfucating the facts of the case.

And to be fair, Baez hasn't said a word about the NG murder.

In the first link, I posted links that point to the FACT that LP has changed his story several times re the "script" scenario. I don't believe we can at this time give what he says about it any credibility.

 

[cuppy199]

4. Casey seemed to truly love Caylee, so many pictures, and Caylee looked happy in pictures with Casey. While some question this, it is NOT EASY to get a 2 1/2 to 3 year old to take dozens of pictures with someone they do not trust or feel comfortable with.

No disrespect or anything but Susan Smith also took plenty of pics of her kids and looked like a loving mom. I could name quite a few mom that look loving but still killed there kids. Pictures can be decieving to say the least. It is appearant that KC loved taking photos period. Just because she had alot of photo with Caylee doesnt mean anything IMO. As for Caylee trusting KC. Young children this age are very trusting of people they see on a regular bases doesnt mean that they wont hurt the child at some point. JMO of course.

 

[MaedchenX]

When Casey was asked when she stopped trusting Zenaida, she said it was when her phone # was no longer working. She could have said that it was when Caylee was not there when she got there to pick her up. If I were lying, I'd probably say that. But really, truthfully it probably really would have been when I tried calling her later and her phone was disconnected.

Wouldn't there still be phone records to establish that Casey was in telephone contact w/said nanny, even if it were later disconnected? I thought this was refuted?

 

[Noway]

Some other things that just popped into my head. Assume for a minute that there is a ZG and she did babysit Caylee:

Has Casey explained why she needed a nanny to watch her child when she didn't go to work (since the job was a lie)?

Is there any record of Casey actually writing a check to ZG? And it being cashed? I mean there had to have been times where she would not have had cash to pay ZG and she would have written a check. IMO Personally, I paid my daycare with a check so there was a record of me paying.

Where did Casey go day after day for hours when she was supposed to be at work?

 

[eg@gm]

Well, Casey is a liar, as we all know. Maybe she lied about something really big this time! Maybe she was telling someone she was going to let them adopt Caylee or something. Something might have spiralled out of control. Being that she is not good at admitting her lies, she can not tell anyone that this whole situation is because of one of her lies.

 

[treeseeker]

I am honestly a fence-sitter, but do have a couple of relevant points re this topic:

The cadaver dogs - there are circumstances where they falsely hit, here are a couple of links to read about that.

http://www.k9fleck.org/articles/cadaver_dog.html
http://www.k9forensic.org/AAFSpaper.html - cadaver dog

The stain in the trunk: If the stain in the trunk were definitely decomp., wouldn't there be a homicide investigation, with or without a suspect? I understand about the speedy trial and discovery, but can't LE conduct a H.I. without arresting Casey first?

There would be no need for air testing if the stain was definitely decomp. Any body fluid yields DNA, although possibly degraded due to environmental conditions - the fluid itself would decompose, and doesn't necessarily indicate the person was dead. I hesitate to mention this, because I can't say it without doubt, but I thought I heard one of the spokespersons mention the stain contained amylase. I can't find it now, but another poster thought they heard something similar, mentioning epithilial cells, I don't think they found it either. This to me suggests vomit, which can go its own direction re chloroform.

I'm also new and a very slow poster, so pardon if I'm butting in somewhere.

 

[catherineb]

No disrespect or anything but Susan Smith also took plenty of pics of her kids and looked like a loving mom. I could name quite a few mom that look loving but still killed there kids. Pictures can be decieving to say the least. It is appearant that KC loved taking photos period. Just because she had alot of photo with Caylee doesnt mean anything IMO. As for Caylee trusting KC. Young children this age are very trusting of people they see on a regular bases doesnt mean that they wont hurt the child at some point. JMO of course.

Has everyone seen the video of Caylee's bday party in the kitchen? I thought Casey didn't look like a good mom and was more worried about getting icing on her face and hair than having fun. JMO. It was Cindy who was wiping them up with a towel.

 

[liltigress]

I don't think it is so much the idea that many here are CONVINCED that Caylee is alive, it is that there are at least a few facts that indicate that she COULD be alive. They choose to hope that the small chance will turn out to be the miracle they hope for in this case.

My own small belief comes more from general concepts than facts:

1. A Zanaida does exist at the right place at the right time. She could easily have lied about knowing Casey, just as Casey could have lied in saying she did not recognize that ZG. While there is no evidence she ever lived at Sawgrass, it is possible that she could have been staying there in an apartment under someone else's name. It is also possible that someone else was using her name. People believe CA used this name fraudulently, why then couldn't someone else have done the same?

2. The strange story and behavior of Kiomare who had WANTED Caylee for some time. In addition to the supposed connections that posters have made between her and ZG.

3. I find the cryptic statements from JG's family to be interesting, along with the behavior of JG at the exact time of Caylee's disappearance.

4. Casey seemed to truly love Caylee, so many pictures, and Caylee looked happy in pictures with Casey. While some question this, it is NOT EASY to get a 2 1/2 to 3 year old to take dozens of pictures with someone they do not trust or feel comfortable with.

There are more, but this gets to the point. There are questions about people in this story that have no answers yet, just as there are no clear answers yet on the forensic evidence.

Gonna be hard getting into this one without having our thread shut down, without naming names. I'll be gentle.. lol

I do think it's odd that a person Casey described as her nanny does exist. I fully believe Casey found most of this information between the Sawgrass Apts card and MySpace. (Whew, I made it through that one)...

Kiomarie was very interesting to say the least. Something didn't feel right on that account.

JG has taken a polygraph. I'm very interested in knowing how that went. I don't feel he would agree to it if he thought there was any way he would be implicated. His father has made some statements based on his personal knowledge with the Anthony family. He does have some insight, I'm sure, but I don't believe it will be anything different from what we are already seeing.

Lastly, yes, I saw the love that appeared to be flowing between mother and child. Casey looked to love Caylee and no doubt Caylee's pictures show an unconditional love for her mother. I'm sick to think she could hurt that baby. Just sick...

Isn't there something that just sticks out here where Casey really could have snapped at the last confrontation with her mother?

2 Motives

1-Casey didn't have any qualms about letting Caylee spend the night with her and Ricardo, why so different with Tony? Caylee never even spent the first night at Tony's. Ricardo partied from what I can see. All of Casey's friends partied. Why was Tony's party pad any different? This makes me believe that Tony wasn't into kids at all. Casey should have also felt at this point that Tony was slipping away... He was feeling smothered.

2- Cindy... Casey and she were fighting over Caylee. Casey, again, felt threatened by Caylee and the attention she was getting as opposed to the attention Casey was getting.

"That's all they care about is finding Caylee"

That screams soooo loud.

 

[shannon718]

I don't think it is so much the idea that many here are CONVINCED that Caylee is alive, it is that there are at least a few facts that indicate that she COULD be alive. They choose to hope that the small chance will turn out to be the miracle they hope for in this case.

My own small belief comes more from general concepts than facts:

Respectfully, my debate is in bold

1. A Zanaida does exist at the right place at the right time. She could easily have lied about knowing Casey, just as Casey could have lied in saying she did not recognize that ZG. While there is no evidence she ever lived at Sawgrass, it is possible that she could have been staying there in an apartment under someone else's name. It is also possible that someone else was using her name. People believe CA used this name fraudulently, why then couldn't someone else have done the same?

The cameras at sawgrass according to The Detectives never showed Casey dropping Caylee off at Sawgrass to anybody on the day that she claimed or any other. Also, any mother would have working phone numbers and email addresses for their babysitter. Casey conveniently did not have a single one that "worked". Not one person has ever met Zenaida. Not one friend of family member has ever had any contact with her at all. Just not plausible.


2. The strange story and behavior of Kiomare who had WANTED Caylee for some time. In addition to the supposed connections that posters have made between her and ZG.

I do believe Kio was a bit strange and I personally do not take much of what she says that seriously. I think she wanted to be a part of the drama of the case. When Kio supposedly said that she wanted Caylee is was in response to Casey apparently wanting to give her up for adoption. I never took Kio's response of " I have money right now and can adopt Caylee" as any reference to buying the baby. She clearly uses the word "adopt" and is simply stating that she feels she is financially stable enough to care of a baby at that time. I also do not see her waiting almost three years to take Caylee and then offer herself up for an interview with detectives no matter how strange the conversation may have been.



3. I find the cryptic statements from JG's family to be interesting, along with the behavior of JG at the exact time of Caylee's disappearance.

I don't understand what they said that was so cryptic other than "the truth will come out". These people were victimized by Casey when she led the entire family to believe that Caylee was their daughter / grand daughter. They were more than familiar with her lies and Casey broke their hearts with her deception. Jesse resigning from LE was seperate and had to do with problems on the job (issues) so he decided to go back to school for criminal justice. I don't see how that is weird. He has also taken a lie detector test and not one of the Anthony's have.


4. Casey seemed to truly love Caylee, so many pictures, and Caylee looked happy in pictures with Casey. While some question this, it is NOT EASY to get a 2 1/2 to 3 year old to take dozens of pictures with someone they do not trust or feel comfortable with.

Sociopaths cannot and do not love they can only mimic what love should be or look like and I do believe that Casey is a sociopath. They are master manipulators and copy normal behavior very well. It has been established that Cindy was the defacto parent and caretaker for Caylee and that Caylee loved and felt more attached to Cindy. This would infuriate a narcissist like Casey. In the video released of Casey and Caylee on Caylee's birthday Casey was more concerned with her appearance than allowing Caylee to get cake and frosting on Casey's face. I believe that Caylee was an accessory to Casey and nothing more. She was something that she could dress up like a doll and get attention from. Caylee was getting older, harder to take care of, and most importantly was beginning to TALK which a pathological liar like Casey surely could not handle. Casey also removed hundreds of pictures of Caylee off of her myspace and facebook after she disappeared according to ryan's interview with Yuri. I think that is very telling....out of sight out of mind.

There are more, but this gets to the point. There are questions about people in this story that have no answers yet, just as there are no clear answers yet on the forensic evidence.

I believe that this statement is to general and it is simply not true that there are no clear answers yet on the forensics. LE basically has stated that Caylee was dead in her mothers trunk which has been linked many times on WS. It is my strong opinion that forensics don't lie; people do. Especially Casey and she has good reason to because she is guilty as sin. imho.

 

[raeann]

Has everyone seen the video of Caylee's bday party in the kitchen? I thought Casey didn't look like a good mom and was more worried about getting icing on her face and hair than having fun. JMO. It was Cindy who was wiping them up with a towel.

I have seen many other posters say that the birthday video was what convinced them how much CA loved Caylee! So I guess it is one's own interpretation. If not wanting sticky icing in your hair or on your face makes one a BAD MOTHER, then that would include me because I HATE being messy more than anything. IMO she WAS having fun with Caylee and Cindy, I thought it was a normal, wonderful moment between the 3 of them.

 

[whoknew?]

Okay...I'll take my theory and go one step further to debate it. I believe Caylee is alive. It took 31 days to report this child missing. During those 31 days CA was behaving "normally" If my theory stated above is correct (my post on this thread about NG connection) then CA may have been afraid and remained silent and tried to act normal. Nothing in this case makes sense. And perhaps it isn't supposed to make sense. If she gained knowledge of what happened in Blanchard Park that day involving NG then someone would have tried to shut her up. In all fairness- CA is a nobody and just a 22 year old girl who quite easily could be intimidated by LE. All the heresay from "sources" finding this and finding that could be a smoke screen to confuse the issue. It is slowly coming out that CA was more involved with LE then anyone of us could have ever anticipated. She, I think at last count, was known to have been with 4 past and present young LE officers. Could a young LE officer be guilty of doing something heinous? Of course...stranger things happen every day. Am I implicating any one specific LE? Absolutely not. Like I said before...there is always the fact that CA said she didn't trust LE.

I believe Caylee is dead and her mother is responsible for her death, one way or another. I hope and pray everyday that I am wrong. I'm willing to consider any theories that might contradict the cadaver dogs "hitting", CA initial 911 call of the car smelling like a dead body, FBI lab and Body Farm tests that conclude there WAS in fact a dead body in the trunk of the car, the discovery of chloroform, and above all... KC's own behavior.
Considering your theory of KC having knowledge of information regarding NG's murder and Caylee was abducted as a means to keep KC silent, I can certaily understand KC being frightened and unsure of what to do at first. But for a over a month? And even then, it was NOT KC's intention or wish to call LE.
Explain to me how a mother(or human being, for that matter) has no idea where her child is, if she's safe, hungry, scared, or even still alive, can just carry on as if there wasn't a care in the world.
Based on the statements of several key players, KC appears to have continued to cook, clean, party, have sex, dance, fake going to work, and lie about Caylee's whereabouts to all who asked without ever showing the tiniest bit of fear, worry, or concern.
I know fear can cause people to do some strange and irrational things, but it's evident by the admissions of her own family and friends that KC is capable of hurting anyone by stealing, lying, etc and NEVER feel REMORSE or FEAR. This is KC's normal behavior, well before Caylee disappeared. So the theory that ANYONE could control her by using threats and fear doesn't make sense to me. This girl appears to me to be incapable of feeling normal emotions that most of us would feel. IMO, she isn't acting concerned about Caylee because she ISN"T concerned. Never has been.

However, I'm more convinced everyday that unless Caylee's body is found or someone with first hand knowledge of Caylee's fate comes forward, we may never know what really happened.:furious:

 

[magnolia]

*Snipped*

She, I think at last count, was known to have been with 4 past and present young LE officers. Could a young LE officer be guilty of doing something heinous? Of course...stranger things happen every day. Am I implicating any one specific LE? Absolutely not. Like I said before...there is always the fact that CA said she didn't trust LE.

This is a typical statement, commonly made by people that have little or no respect for the Law.