Defending against an intruder

  • #121
What is the best explanation for a kidnapper waiting to write the ransom note until he/she arrives at the Ramsey residence? That is blatantly maximizing the amount of time they have to spend at the crime scene.

The length of the note is strange no matter who you suspect. The whole thing could have been condensed into 3 or 4 lines at most and got the point across. So why the rambling? Someone trying to explain away the tragedy? Come to grips with it? Trying way too hard to divert attention? I think these are alll possible explanations for why Patty would have written such a long note.

Why would have an intruder added all the superfluous details? Why would they have switched from "we" and "us" to "I" and "my" part way through? Go from formal to informal? Those inconsistencies strongly suggest a person who is putting up a front and then gradually coming out of that character. A savage kidnapper/murder wouldn't have to play pretend when writing the note.

There may be a couple of tidbits that cast doubt on Patsy writing the note, but I'm afraid they are dwarfed by all the details that point right to her.
 
  • #122
The Secret Service guy made a preliminary observation when the police hadn't even collected a wide range of PR's handwriting, as Ubowski pointed out. Not counting the Rs hired guns, he was the only one who even came close to eliminating her. The rest of them said she either wrote it, or they couldn't say she wrote it in court because of the disguised letters and worn-down felt pen, both of which make analysis extremely difficult.

And another ten say she did write it. How many do you need?

'preliminary observation'

Please provide a source or link for 'preliminary observation' as that appears to be just your own characterization.

To repeat what I've already said so many times, there is no consensus among ABFDE members that PR wrote the note. If what you say were even close to being true, and these 'experts' of yours were ABFDE members, why is there no public statement of consensus?

You know that if there were, she would've been arrested and tried. There wasn't, so she wasn't. And you know it.
 
  • #123
'preliminary observation'

Please provide a source or link for 'preliminary observation' as that appears to be just your own characterization.

Okay, here goes. From "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," paperback, pages 535-536, concerning the aftermath of the Secret Service analysis:

The CBI was not pleased with how Beckner was handling things. The police had never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report and whether it was his final report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, "Patsy wrote the note." The CBI (Ubowski's organization) saw this as one more missed opportunity. I should also point out that, according to Epstein, the Secret Service expert's primary duty is not document examination and it not clear how much actual work he does.


To repeat what I've already said so many times, there is no consensus among ABFDE members that PR wrote the note.

Holdon, document examination is such a contentious field anyway, if every single case needed a consensus of multiple experts to go forward, there would be a whole lot of guilty people walking free right now.

If what you say were even close to being true,

I have good reason to say it is. I'm not out to waste anyone's time with lies. Not yours or anyone else's.

and these 'experts' of yours were ABFDE members,

Several were, but not all.

why is there no public statement of consensus?

Because it's not an exact science, Holdon. It just doesn't work that way. I'm sorry if that seems like a cheap answer, but it's the only one I can give you, and while you may not believe this, I have enough respect for you not to insult your intelligence by trying to pull an explanation from my nether regions. There's no hard-and-fast, tried-and-true, absolutely objective scientific means of analysis that everyone in the field agrees on. If there were, things would be much different, but as it stands now, it's actually far more common to get a widely varying group of opinions than a unanimous "consensus," as you put it. And I'm not just saying that. I've actually spoken to several document examiners (none involved with this case, if you were wondering), and that's what they told me. As much as they have confidence in their own abilities, at the end of the day it's still one person, one opinion. Please, do not ask me who they were, because I promised that I would not reveal their names, and I like to keep my promises whenever I can.

In this instance, it becomes all that much harder because you had a letter that was block printed, which is very difficult to analyze. Add to that it was written with a broad, felt-tip writing implement which was most likely worn down from prior use, which makes it even harder to analyze.

There's another possibility, as well, though I don't know what you might make of it: it could be that some of these experts just flat-out did not want to challenge Howard Rile, one of the Ramsey hired guns. As the examiners told me, (not just them) document analysis is a very small field. When you narrow it down to the ABFDE, it's even smaller. Most of them know one another and respect the others' analyses, and Rile is held up as a particularly tough act to follow among them. He and Gideon Epstein are considered two of the all-time best. Nobody wants to make any waves, in other words. So they parse their findings, hoping that someone else will rise up that they can hide behind. A vicious circle, indeed. Again, take that for what it's worth. But like I said, I wouldn't tell you if I didn't think you were smart enough to know what I was getting at.


You know that if there were, she would've been arrested and tried.

Actually, I'm not convinced of that at all, even if there had been. I refer you to Pete Hofstrom, who said, "so what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she killed her kid." Sadly, from a legal standpoint, he's right. It doesn't. It just proves she helped cover it up. (I'm just saying.) The DA's office did not want to take this case on, Holdon. You should remember that.

There wasn't, so she wasn't. And you know it.

I know what I know.
 
  • #124
Well, there's Lou Smit's interview with John Ramsey from 1998 where he confirms it is pineapple, to start with.

What are you getting at?

Aaah, nothing in particular? Just trying to find out more info 'bout the pineapple. Thanks for the addit. info.
 
  • #125
I know what I know.

No argument there.

I appreciate the effort you put forth on this case, and I also understand that because of your bias toward RDI its not easy to see anything past.

For argument sake, though, what do you think of PR and JR as people?
 
  • #126
Aaah, nothing in particular? Just trying to find out more info 'bout the pineapple. Thanks for the addit. info.

Okay. The books talk about it at length as well.
 
  • #127
No argument there.

Let me be clear on something. Perhaps I should not have phrased it that way. What I will say is that I can't not see what my eyes tell me.

I appreciate the effort you put forth on this case,

As I appreciate yours.

and I also understand that because of your bias toward RDI its not easy to see anything past.

That is a cheap shot. You didn't need to add that in. Look, I used to be an IDI. Maybe that does cloud my judgment. But even if it does, I figure that's my problem, not anyone else's. It's my cross to bear, as it were. And I'd be much obliged to keep such petty comments out of this. But if I were to dignify that, I would say this: one of my father's favorite sayings was, "always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out"

For argument sake, though, what do you think of PR and JR as people?

Oh, boy. Holdon, that's a complicated answer, and one I don't take very lightly, for the record.

My feelings toward PR are conflicting. I think she was a beautiful, smart, dynamic lady who loved her family as much as she knew how. You may think I hate her, but I don't. At one time, I may have, but hate is a poor thing to waste your life on, so I gave it up. I have never doubted that she loved her daughter. I have always thought she did. When I heard she had died, it was like someone had punched me right in the gut. I know men aren't supposed to cry, but I did.
I think PR was dealt a bad hand in a lot of ways, mostly from her own parents.
Ultimately, PR is an extremely tragic figure on several levels. I feel genuine sympathy for her. Maybe that answer is longer than you expected. I doubt it's what you thought I'd say, but I do my level best to be a straight-shooter with anyone who asks my feelings.

As for JR...well, another one of my dad's favorite sayings was, "if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all." For the moment, I think I'll heed my father's wisdom.
 
  • #128
Oh, boy. Holdon, that's a complicated answer, and one I don't take very lightly, for the record.

My feelings toward PR are conflicting. I think she was a beautiful, smart, dynamic lady who loved her family as much as she knew how. You may think I hate her, but I don't. At one time, I may have, but hate is a poor thing to waste your life on, so I gave it up. I have never doubted that she loved her daughter. I have always thought she did. When I heard she had died, it was like someone had punched me right in the gut. I know men aren't supposed to cry, but I did.
I think PR was dealt a bad hand in a lot of ways, mostly from her own parents.
Ultimately, PR is an extremely tragic figure on several levels. I feel genuine sympathy for her. Maybe that answer is longer than you expected. I doubt it's what you thought I'd say, but I do my level best to be a straight-shooter with anyone who asks my feelings.

As for JR...well, another one of my dad's favorite sayings was, "if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all." For the moment, I think I'll heed my father's wisdom.

Dealt a bad hand in a lot of ways. Can you name a few of those?

Extremely tragic figure on several levels. OK. What levels?
 
  • #129
Dealt a bad hand in a lot of ways. Can you name a few of those?

Well, first and foremost I think, and this is my opinion, that she and her mother did not have what we might call a healthy relationship. I believe that her mother distorted her mind from a very young age, teaching her that looks were more important than character and that if you weren't the very best you were a failure. That's what I mean when I say that she loved her daughter as much as she knew how. Her mother did her a terrible injury, in my view, one that couldn't be fixed. She just didn't know any better. I suspect her father was abusive. I think she was a little bothered being known as a "trophy wife." (JR's words, not mine.) Nobody really loved her for her, except her sisters and her children and she didn't know how to handle that. At least, that's how I feel about it.

Extremely tragic figure on several levels. OK. What levels?

On the level that neither she or her daughter ever really had a chance, thanks to Nedra, is the big one. On the level that she was a commodity to so many people that professed to love her. She was a nice girl who deserved better.

You'll have to excuse me for not being able to explain more fully just now. One, it's very late and I'm not as sharp as I might be. Two, and more importantly, these are complex feelings that I guess I've never really dealt with fully. I've never been that good at putting my feelings into words. The men in my family have always had that problem. Hope you understand.
 
  • #130
On the level that neither she or her daughter ever really had a chance, thanks to Nedra, is the big one. On the level that she was a commodity to so many people that professed to love her. She was a nice girl who deserved better.

What did Nedra do?
 
  • #131
What did Nedra do?

Would you appreciate responses from the rest of the forum or looking for a private response from Super Dave. I would not want to interrupt.
 
  • #132
While coloradokares waits for the response, I'll keep going. After all, we're just talking here, right?

What did Nedra do?

If you had read the first part of my reply, you'd already know. But, here it is (again):

I believe that her mother distorted her mind from a very young age, teaching her that looks were more important than character and that if you weren't the very best you were a failure.
 
  • #133
But my real response is, what kidnapper is unable to restrain a puny 6 year old? Why would they care to keep her happy? They've just kidnapped and assaulted her! ("Don't take it personally, kiddo. This is aimed at your daddy, not you. Cheer up, have some pineapple!")

LOL!!


I think the delicious pineapple was going to be used to bribe police if their car was stopped on the way out of town. lol
 
  • #134
While coloradokares waits for the response, I'll keep going. After all, we're just talking here, right?



If you had read the first part of my reply, you'd already know. But, here it is (again):

I believe that her mother distorted her mind from a very young age, teaching her that looks were more important than character and that if you weren't the very best you were a failure.


All I would add to that is I am sure that Nedra gave Patsy and Pam as much opportunity to not like what they were doing as she would have given to JonBenet as well. She will do it and that is all there is to it. Also One more thing JonBenet was only a little molested..........:doh:
 
  • #135
While coloradokares waits for the response, I'll keep going. After all, we're just talking here, right?



If you had read the first part of my reply, you'd already know. But, here it is (again):

I believe that her mother distorted her mind from a very young age, teaching her that looks were more important than character and that if you weren't the very best you were a failure.

So you think that PR has a distorted mind?
 
  • #136
So you think that PR has a distorted mind?

Now, be careful here, Holdon. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to be a good sport about this.

What I think is she was taught distorted values. I think she grew up in an unhealthy environment.
 
  • #137
I think it is fair to say PR had "baggage"....
 
  • #138
I try to look at the parents objectively. I am sure among people who knew them they were well liked by many, admired by some and envied by a few. They were probably not the people I'd look to be friends with on a personal level, but you never know.
In the town where I lived previously for 21 years, it was a very affluent town. There were many people like the Rs, and many mothers who were driven to have their kids excel. Maybe not on the kiddie pageant circle (it is not so much a big deal in the Northeast as it is in the South) but in academics, sports, etc. There are kids who from as early as the primary grades were going to sports, dancing, music, pottery, and language classes all in a single week.
What we think of the Rs as people should really have no bearing on our perception of their guilt or innocence. Unfortunately, it DID come to bear on the case as far as the Grand Jury and the DA's office, who simply could not separate the wealth and community status of the Rs from the evidence- a murdered assaulted child found in her own home with many clues implicating the parents.
 
  • #139
What we think of the Rs as people should really have no bearing on our perception of their guilt or innocence. Unfortunately, it DID come to bear on the case as far as the Grand Jury and the DA's office, who simply could not separate the wealth and community status of the Rs from the evidence- a murdered assaulted child found in her own home with many clues implicating the parents.

I think I disagree with your rule, because it seems to conflict with the whole idea of criminal profiling. Profilers depend on what one person thinks of another person, as a person. They hope their profile causes a change in one person's perception of the other person's guilt or innocence. The profiles I've read for JBR's killer state that it could be a loner male with money/alcohol/women/religion issues, someone who is obsessed with movies, etc.

I'm not sure 'someone who had a controlling mother' or 'someone who cared more about looks than character' was ever mentioned by the profilers.
 
  • #140
I think I disagree with your rule, because it seems to conflict with the whole idea of criminal profiling. Profilers depend on what one person thinks of another person, as a person. They hope their profile causes a change in one person's perception of the other person's guilt or innocence. The profiles I've read for JBR's killer state that it could be a loner male with money/alcohol/women/religion issues, someone who is obsessed with movies, etc.

I'm not sure 'someone who had a controlling mother' or 'someone who cared more about looks than character' was ever mentioned by the profilers.

It is no less the truth whether or not a profiler pointed it out or not. I Know people who knew the Ramseys one set would say they were generous la te da another set would say controlling and demanding another ..... well I could go on but unless they were here themselves its neresay anyway.
 

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