Defense What is their strategy? #1

[Balthazar]

IIRC, Casey didn't break down and cry ONE time when talking to LE about her "missing" child. You're right...she doesn't need to be crying all the time...she should have been catatonic or numb with grief.

Well, if you recall correctly, Casey only talked to LE on July 15 and July 16. After that she lawyered up and there were no further conversations about Caylee at all. The defense will probably claim that at the time Casey thought that someone she trusted had Caylee and Caylee was safe, so she was alright with it.

 

[Balthazar]

i swore i was taking a break ...
i knew i shouldn't have peeked ...
but now i have and ...



*resp. snipped.
they dealt w/ their grief in the first week or month???
a parent, in your view, would normally deal w/ the grief caused by the death of a child in the first week or month? and you've met these people?
for the first time on this board i don't really know what to say.
i'm shocked, and not in that cliched, hackneyed fashion, i'm actually shocked.
in my world the death of a child causes far greater pain and grief than could possibly ever be dealt w/ in a week or a month. it makes no difference that there's nothing else you can do. you cannot make a logical argument against grief or loneliness or hate or love and and just make these emotions go away at will.

i honestly can't believe that you know people, and feel in yourself, that the grief caused by the loss of a child should last so tiny a period of time and that the mother should then make a conscious decision to go do something else b/c she can't change the situation.
i'm a mother and if i posted my true feelings i would be banned.

i'm outta here, this time NO peeking.

I think it is rather presumptuous to assume that there is ONLY one way for a parent to deal with the grief of losing a child or that if they don't deal with it over a long period of time then they didn't love the child. Grief comes in many forms and lasts for varying amounts of time depending upon the specific individuals and the specific situation. Many, many factors come into play in how and how long a parent might grieve the loss of a child including how the child died, cultural/societal issues and religious beliefs and practices. I would never consider it appropriate to criticize any parent for how they grieve nor for how long they grieved.

 

[cyberborg]

I think they are going to attack the forensics via LKB, attack the LE investigation and procedures via TM and, attack that Caylee was not at the crime scene until after KC was in jail -- from the fumbles and searches by TES, PI's, everyone.

If they can raise reasonable doubt that Caylee was not there all of the time, thus was moved by someone other than KC and, raise doubt on the forensics and trash LE procedures -- it is the only hope.

 

[trixi491]

I think they are going to attack the forensics via LKB, attack the LE investigation and procedures via TM and, attack that Caylee was not at the crime scene until after KC was in jail -- from the fumbles and searches by TES, PI's, everyone.

If they can raise reasonable doubt that Caylee was not there all of the time, thus was moved by someone other than KC and, raise doubt on the forensics and trash LE procedures -- it is the only hope.

IIRC there was someone on the NG show that said some type of evidence proved the remains had been there since June/July? Does anyone else remember this?

 

[KenoshaKid]

IIRC there was someone on the NG show that said some type of evidence proved the remains had been there since June/July? Does anyone else remember this?

Yes. I believe it had to do with plants which had grown thru the bag.

 

[Balthazar]

IIRC there was someone on the NG show that said some type of evidence proved the remains had been there since June/July? Does anyone else remember this?

Yes, I remember this. The evidence they were refering to was the plant evidence. The type of evidence that would prove Caylee had been there since June/July would be plant evidence that fit's that specific timeframe located in the bags or on the remains.

 

[Meemom]

Considering the new depos JB is doing of LE & jail personnel, I think he is just going to keep hammering that LE assumed from the beginning that KC was guilty, and failed to do anything else that could have proved her innocent, even though proving her innocence is NOT their job. JB can only try to sway some jurors, that he'll hope are slightly paranoid about the police to begin with, that LE is incompetent, biased, and lazy. He'll try to convince those jurors that LE focused on KC as a murder suspect right from the beginning, (decomp smell in her car be damned) and started fudging the facts to suit their purpose (actual scientific forensics be damned, too!). I can only hope that the SA will do a good job in jury selection to weed those people out.
Personally, I think LE and the SA have done an excellent investigation in this case. Hopefully, a few minor human errors (like the confusion over whether or not that area on Suburban Dr had been fully searched) won't affect the outcome.
Or maybe JB is just playing a semantics game when he declares her innocent- technically she IS innocent- until proven GUILTY.....

 

[Jolynna]

She even tried cashing fraudulent checks in clear sight of video camera's and signing her own name to the checks. Maybe she was even shocked at how long she got away with it....

Actually Casey did know she was safe until July 15 when Amy got back from Puerto Rico.

 

[Whisperer]

I think they are going to throw "Zanni" under the bus. I think (do not agree) that the family has managed to convince themselves that Zanni is part of casey. Furthermore, they have forgiven her.

 

[Whisperer]

The defense cannot use the "insanity defense" in this case, IMO....
To my knowledge kc has no prior visits to any mental health experts, however, the defense could claim she suffers from a personality disorder gone awry and was untreated. It will not work as a defense but they may have to use this to explain her behavior for the 31 days.

 

[MAMABEAR]

I did not read every post on this thread so forgive me if I am repeating someone elses thoughts on the defense.

What if Bozo goes with a split personality theory and that Zanny is Casey's other pesonality and that Casey has no recolections of any events while she is Zanny?

I am thinking of the movie Primal Fear where the Edward Norton Character successfully pulled off having a split personality.

:balloons::Welcome-12-june::balloons:

I have thought that maybe she could be multiples or that JB would try and go that route, but my BFF's always talk me out of it.

If she was then we don't know enough about her to tell if she has that or not. They tell me that there is memory loss----but then I think---well, maybe she does have memory loss and nobody knows about it. If JB wanted to use this then she should have been practicing this type of stuff in front of guards. Maybe this is what JB is doin depos on them.

There has been several thangs that turn my head in this direction. Jesse G says that is not the same girl as he used to know. Several of her friends say something to that affect.

You know how LA says he and KC have a "special" speaking thang goin on? Well, maybe this is why. Maybe he doesn't even realize she has multiples----maybe he thinks it is a "mind" game. Maybe he is talking to one of the others and he just thinks it's one of KC's games and over the years has adjusted to it. I don't know---------------

Anyway------------Happy Sleuthing!

 

[SoSueMe]

I think that you have missed my point. My point was that it's unrealistic of us to expect to see Casey or any other mother constantly crying two months after her child was found dead. It's ridiculous.

I don't think anyone expects KC to be constantly crying. So far we've only seen tears for herself and none for Caylee. Even in the jailhouse visits on the rare occasions when she does cry, it's about herself and she adds Caylee in the mix almost like an afterthought.

 

[SoSueMe]

I think it is rather presumptuous to assume that there is ONLY one way for a parent to deal with the grief of losing a child or that if they don't deal with it over a long period of time then they didn't love the child. Grief comes in many forms and lasts for varying amounts of time depending upon the specific individuals and the specific situation. Many, many factors come into play in how and how long a parent might grieve the loss of a child including how the child died, cultural/societal issues and religious beliefs and practices. I would never consider it appropriate to criticize any parent for how they grieve nor for how long they grieved.

You are right. We all grieve differently. In the case of your friends with the triplets, they had other children to care for and had to keep going. A lot of times, you do what you have to do to survive. Some people just go through the motions. They get up, shower, get dressed and go back to bed until they are finally able to deal with the world again.

I think the outrage with KC is that she had a child, almost 3 years old that she took care of and slept with every night. To have killed that child (which the majority now presume) and to go out for movie night the very day of her death and then to be seen partying it up at Fusion just days later is ludicrous. She showed no grief for her daughter at all imo. Cold as ice that one is.

 

[Jolynna]

I think that you have missed my point. My point was that it's unrealistic of us to expect to see Casey or any other mother constantly crying two months after her child was found dead. It's ridiculous.

I agree that everyone wouldn't cry.

But, if there was an unexpected death of a child, shortly after the death, the same day of the death, you don't expect to see happy-as-a-clam.

The evidence shows that right before or right after the possible "accident" Casey taped Caylee's mouth shut.

Yet Tony and his roommates say Casey wasn't wild eyed, breathing hard, nervous, shakey or spacey that afternoon or evening. The Blockbuster video backs up the witnesses.

I am going to bet in advance of the testimony that Casey cooked for everybody and ate before going with Tony to get the movies. Tony and his roommates would have been hungry.

 

[Whisperer]

MamaBear, I agree...

From Jess G. and so many others who claim to have witnessed a different person, lays the star JB is hitching himself to.

When kc said to her mother when asked what to say to Zani, kc responds, "Tell her we all forgive her"..WTH! I was dumbfounded. To top that CA does not even take a deep breath. No show of emotion. No questions of her dd. It certainly appeared to me that CA had convinced herself that kc was Zanni, and now she understood what happened.

The defense will hammer this all the way to the end. They have many witnesses repeating that kc changed in the past three years. Personally, I just think these people never saw her for what she was, but the defense is going to run with the, "She is a totally different person" theory and something unexplainable and difficult to understand has happened to her. They will tell the jury to try and understand the complexity of the human mind.

I believe JB is convinced she has two entirely different personalities. Furthermore, I think he may possibly try to say she is an untreated Bi-polar who was in a manic state and went into a dissociative fugue. (never heard of this occurring but that won't stop Baez). He will explain about other people in the family who have Bi-polar. None of this will be an insanity defense. It will just explain her behavior during the time that she didn't report her child missing. This worked for the Debra LaFave Case. The judge was lenient on her, but she did have documented Bi-polar. We will see.

I do not know if he will ever say how Caylee died......if he mentions it, it will be described as a soft kill and kc has no memory of it.

 

[snow_walker]

Certainly Casey's lack of emotion over a missing child was very, very unusual, but stranger yet is her lack of reaction upon hearing it was little Caylee's body that was found. (not the first day, when it might have been some other little child, but when the dna removed all doubt that it was her little Caylee.)
At that point, when all hope was gone, I think any mother (any innocent mother) would have been grief stricken, sick with despair and in such menal agony they would act like a mother bear deprived of her cub..

With nothing left to lose, I would have been shouting the walls down to get LE to investigate every or any little scrap of information I had left to to tell them, to help them find this evil person. I would be asking JB and my family to get out there and speak to the media, begging and pleading with people to search in every corner of the world for the kidnapper..warning all who would listen about this lunatic that would steal their child and murder the poor little thing... kicking the walls down to get out and search for the monster myself.

Instead there is nothing but this resounding silence from both Casey and her entire family that speaks louder than words could.

 

[Balthazar]

MamaBear, I agree...

From Jess G. and so many others who claim to have witnessed a different person, lays the star JB is hitching himself to.

When kc said to her mother when asked what to say to Zani, kc responds, "Tell her we all forgive her"..WTH! I was dumbfounded. To top that CA does not even take a deep breath. No show of emotion. No questions of her dd. It certainly appeared to me that CA had convinced herself that kc was Zanni, and now she understood what happened.

The defense will hammer this all the way to the end. They have many witnesses repeating that kc changed in the past three years. Personally, I just think these people never saw her for what she was, but the defense is going to run with the, "She is a totally different person" theory and something unexplainable and difficult to understand has happened to her. They will tell the jury to try and understand the complexity of the human mind.

I believe JB is convinced she has two entirely different personalities. Furthermore, I think he may possibly try to say she is an untreated Bi-polar who was in a manic state and went into a dissociative fugue. (never heard of this occurring but that won't stop Baez). He will explain about other people in the family who have Bi-polar. None of this will be an insanity defense. It will just explain her behavior during the time that she didn't report her child missing. This worked for the Debra LaFave Case. The judge was lenient on her, but she did have documented Bi-polar. We will see.

I do not know if he will ever say how Caylee died......if he mentions it, it will be described as a soft kill and kc has no memory of it.

The key reason I don't think this will be an insanity defense is because the defense attorneys have all said that Casey is "innocent" not "Not Guilty." An insanity defense would include the words "Not Guilty by reason of insanity." One of her attorneys has even gone so far as to say that Casey should "never have been arrested in the first place."

In addition Linda K. Baden has openly compared Casey to Sam Sheppard. In that case Sam Sheppard was convicted of murder due to circumstantial evidence, however, the truth was there was another person who was a more likely suspect.

There have been so many rumors in this case that have been taken as fact. I know it's very difficult to sort them out. Baez stated that Casey WAS grieving for Caylee when her body was found, but the jailhouse personnel have leaked rumors that she wasn't. Which is the truth? We really have no way of knowing.

 

[Tiki]

I think that you have missed my point. My point was that it's unrealistic of us to expect to see Casey or any other mother constantly crying two months after her child was found dead. It's ridiculous.

Not Ridiculous. I cried constantly for months and months after my 23-year-old son died in Jan. 2006. I still cry every day for him - some days I cry all day. I always will. I expect to be in therapy and on medication for the rest of my life in order to be able to stay alive for my other son - otherwise I be gone now as well. I understand how GA feels and, believe me, he hasn't gotten over it. It's a painful daily struggle. I can barely leave home after over 3 years.

What is ridiculous is to presume to know how someone else deals with the death of a child.

This is not to say I think KC is grieving unless for herself - G and CA, yes - they are trying to hold onto anything they can. . . what else can they do? You can't just make up your mind to get over it - that doesn't work. The depth and length of the greiving process is affected by the cirumstances surrounding it.
If interested, read more below.


From https://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Complicated-grief.shtml

Complicated grief
Grief is an unavoidable and normal experience. But it can take intense forms that surprise a bereaved person, including forms that in other circumstances would be called a psychiatric disorder. In some cases, psychiatric treatment may help.

Bereaved persons may suffer not only sadness but anger and suspicions about the motives of people who offer support. They may ruminate obsessionally about the events leading up to the death and blame themselves or others for it. Up to 50% of widows and widowers have symptoms typical of major depression in the first few months. They may also have hallucinatory experiences.

These symptoms are usually normal responses to the loss. They call for comforting and sometimes explanation, but not treatment. But if the symptoms linger and become increasingly debilitating, the condition turns into what is now being called unresolved, protracted, traumatic, or complicated grief. It has features of both depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). And there is some evidence that a distinct type of treatment may bring relief.

The most characteristic symptoms are intrusive thoughts and images of the deceased person and a painful yearning for his or her presence. Other complications are denial of the death, imagining that the dead person is alive, desperate loneliness and helplessness, anger and bitterness, and wanting to die..

 

[Jolynna]

The key reason I don't think this will be an insanity defense is because the defense attorneys have all said that Casey is "innocent" not "Not Guilty." An insanity defense would include the words "Not Guilty by reason of insanity." One of her attorneys has even gone so far as to say that Casey should "never have been arrested in the first place."

In addition Linda K. Baden has openly compared Casey to Sam Sheppard. In that case Sam Sheppard was convicted of murder due to circumstantial evidence, however, the truth was there was another person who was a more likely suspect.

There have been so many rumors in this case that have been taken as fact. I know it's very difficult to sort them out. Baez stated that Casey WAS grieving for Caylee when her body was found, but the jailhouse personnel have leaked rumors that she wasn't. Which is the truth? We really have no way of knowing.

I agree that Casey will use the some other dude did it defense instead of an insanity plea.

 

[ggg]

Not Ridiculous. I cried constantly for months and months after my 23-year-old son died in Jan. 2006. I still cry every day for him - some days I cry all day. I always will. I expect to be in therapy and on medication for the rest of my life in order to be able to stay alive for my other son - otherwise I be gone now as well. I understand how GA feels and, believe me, he hasn't gotten over it. It's a painful daily struggle. I can barely leave home after over 3 years.

What is ridiculous is to presume to know how someone else deals with the death of a child.

This is not to say I think KC is grieving unless for herself - G and CA, yes - they are trying to hold onto anything they can. . . what else can they do? You can't just make up your mind to get over it - that doesn't work. The depth and length of the greiving process is affected by the cirumstances surrounding it.
If interested, read more below.


From https://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Complicated-grief.shtml

Complicated grief
Grief is an unavoidable and normal experience. But it can take intense forms that surprise a bereaved person, including forms that in other circumstances would be called a psychiatric disorder. In some cases, psychiatric treatment may help.

Bereaved persons may suffer not only sadness but anger and suspicions about the motives of people who offer support. They may ruminate obsessionally about the events leading up to the death and blame themselves or others for it. Up to 50% of widows and widowers have symptoms typical of major depression in the first few months. They may also have hallucinatory experiences.

These symptoms are usually normal responses to the loss. They call for comforting and sometimes explanation, but not treatment. But if the symptoms linger and become increasingly debilitating, the condition turns into what is now being called unresolved, protracted, traumatic, or complicated grief. It has features of both depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). And there is some evidence that a distinct type of treatment may bring relief.

The most characteristic symptoms are intrusive thoughts and images of the deceased person and a painful yearning for his or her presence. Other complications are denial of the death, imagining that the dead person is alive, desperate loneliness and helplessness, anger and bitterness, and wanting to die..

God Bless you Tiki. The death of a child is the worst to recover from, if one ever does. My mother, now deceased almost 1 1/2 yrs, buried 3 sons in her lifetime. One at the tender age of 5 who died from a head injury from falling off a bike, the second at the age of 26 from suicide, and the last at age 46 from another suicide which also involved him killing his wife (tangled love affair). I don't know how my mother, who lived to be 84 yrs old carried each of those heartaches everyday. I'm sure she got her will to carry on because of her faith and the children she still had yet to raise (me and my sister). I remember her having many sad and depressing days in my life. Her health wasn't that great either.

As I got older (teens), and not wanting to upset her with saddness, I got the courage to ask her how she got through all the heartache. She wasn't much for words (still too painful for her to talk about years later) and not a religious person, but she managed to say "I trust in the Lord. He will see me through". I accepted her response and just moved on. She died painlessly in her sleep (coma) on September 2, 2007 while holding my hand. It was at that moment, and leading up to her death (several years of alzheimers) that I realized the gravity of her statement, "Trust in the Lord, He will see you through". Yes, He did indeed. HE blessed her with no memories of the heartaches (alzheimers) and a peaceful death. As a witness to her life and to her pain, and finally her death, I now know that there are forces at work, for our good, that give us whatever it is that we need at time to get through. I silently look for it each and every day, as I'm sure you do too, because I long for her presence. I miss her. I just plain and simply miss her. One day at a time, my friend. One day at a time.