Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[Leila]

I can only imagine and mentioned in another thread... I believe that Cindy threatened for the last time to obtain custody of Caylee and throw KC's butt out the door. I think (my opinion only) that KC replied in kind telling her mother she'd rather see her daughter dead than Cindy get custody. Thus the choking of KC.

And more than a month later, Cindy spewed out the dead body in the car on 911. She knew her daughter followed through, she knew. Right after the regrettable 911 statement, CA, GA & LA sprung into action that has lead to massive cover up.

my 2cents only people...

There had to have been a catalyst for Caylee's murder. A fight between Casey and Cindy on the evening of June 15th, one in which Cindy issues an ultimatum, could have been the catalyst that sent Casey into a rage resulting in Caylee's death.

I can see the likelihood that Casey threatened Cindy with "you'll never see Caylee again", and Cindy's MySpace message of July 3rd points to that.

 

[carrie]

Devon, Bond, & others, I think you're onto something here. Per the neighbors recollection, there were likely 2 fights, the worst one on the 7, 8, or 9 15, Father's Day.

Apparently, the fight wasn't over and flared up, perhaps, when CA got home from taking Caylee to see her Dad. She hadn't seen much of KC in the week prior, and didn't see her much on Father's Day until that evening. Of course, she had to have seen her when she dropped Caylee off I'm assuming.

Which is what I'm wondering about right now, why would KC relent so soon and put the hide - the - Caylee game (Bond's term) on hold, allowing CA to have Caylee all day on Father's Day?

I have some more thoughts/questions on this that I'll post later after I've gotten my thoughts together.

More later. Great work on this guys! Great work! Fights on two consecutive weekends would explain a lot.

 

[JBean]

Devon, Bond, & others, I think you're onto something here. Per the neighbors recollection, there were likely 2 fights, the worst one on the 7, 8, ,9 and a follow up on the 15 Father's Day.

Apparently the fight wasn't over and flared up perhaps, when CA got home from taking Caylee to see her father. She hadn't seen much of KC in the week prior, and didn't see her much on Father's Day until that evening. Of course, she had to have seen her when she dropped Caylee off I'm assuming.

Which is what I'm wondering about right now, why would KC relent and put the hide - the - Caylee game (Bond's term) on hold, allowing CA to have Caylee all day on Father's Day?

I have some more thoughts/questions on this that I'll post later after I've gotten my thoughts together.

More later. Great work on this guys! Great work!

Because it must have served a purpose for KC.(read needed a babysitter)

 

[Thinaire]

There had to have been a catalyst for Caylee's murder. A fight between Casey and Cindy on the evening of June 15th, one in which Cindy issues an ultimatum, could have been the catalyst that sent Casey into a rage resulting in Caylee's death.

I can see the likelihood that Casey threatened Cindy with "you'll never see Caylee again", and Cindy's MySpace message of July 3rd points to that.

Whats scarier to me...is I don't think KC even had to be in a rage to kill anyone. From the computer searches and all, she may have had this in her twisted mind for some time and the fight just tipped it.

 

[CourtsInSession]

MF also said he spoke with neighbors who heard a terrible fight between CA & KC but not sure if it was pinned down to June 15th; I remember this from one of Greta VS' shows way back in the beginning. And I remember reading/hearing that a neighbor said he was shocked at a fight he overheard, the way KC used profanity with her mother; this is either in the docs somewhere (I've read everything but no clue where to find it again) or maybe LP repeated this from an inside source (I know, I know, LP lol)... But regardless of whether or not we have access to these neighbor-statements right now, I have no doubt that these witnesses will be presented at trial regarding the Cindy-Casey fight on June 15th because I think it's part of the reason Caylee was killed at that time.

I also remember this. It was the woman who lived across the street from the A's. She also told about one day Casey and CA were in a battle and it kept up as Casey came out through the garage using terrible profanity toward her mother and just kept going jogging down the street.

 

[zippitydo]

I agree that the Defense has to go after CA and can do so most plausibly. Especially given the ZFG depo where she is so angry and non cooperative -- why? -- self implication?

KC can even say that Zanny is CA and that she was scared to implicate her own Mother, that's why she was afraid to call 911 and the family was threatened (by implication). KC was protecting CA.

I think it is the only 'out' that the Defense has, to go after CA and I had proposed a 'double jeopardy' theory where CA is implicated at first so there is reasonable doubt and KC goes free then, belated evidence is brought out at CA's trial that points directly at KC. Et voila!!!

ITA! Also, I still wonder what KC meant when she said "Don't worry, I won't tell"
IIRC, KC did say that , didn't she? JMO

 

[costalpilot]

.....................................................
Wouldn't that be tragic if it turns out that Casey isn't nearly as huge of a liar as we thought ..........

edited by me....


KC took the police to her "place of employment", where she had been "working" for. what. two years?

But she was lying.

She told the police she had been conducting her own investigation, trying to find Caylee,

but she was lying.

and so on, and so on......

Cindy is not helping her, in any way...I agree. But she's earned her "liar" reputation all by herself. And its as huge as it gets.

imo.

 

[Kimster]

Would the defense really throw CA under the bus? I don't think so. I think CA could come up with some stories about KC that we are in the dark about that KC would rather keep under her hat. If KC is truly a sociopath, she believes she will get an acquital. She's going to want to continue to ride CA's gravy train, using the grieving mother and "look what I've gone through in my young life" to pull on CA's heart strings as long as she can. She won't want to alienate her.

Personally, I don't see her getting a not guilty verdict. But, I really think KC believes that will be the outcome.

 

[shgrbkr]

Would the defense really throw CA under the bus? I don't think so. I think CA could come up with some stories about KC that we are in the dark about that KC would rather keep under her hat. If KC is truly a sociopath, she believes she will get an acquital. She's going to want to continue to ride CA's gravy train, using the grieving mother and "look what I've gone through in my young life" to pull on CA's heart strings as long as she can. She won't want to alienate her.

Personally, I don't see her getting a not guilty verdict. But, I really think KC believes that will be the outcome.

ITA with you on this. IMO, the defense has not even considered throwing any of the A family under the bus. And KC knows exactly how to play her parents, what buttons to push. She certainly has them wrapped around her little finger right now and she knows it. I do believe that not only KC, but even CA believes the verdict will be not guilty. They think whatever "theories" they can throw out there will be "reasonable doubt." They are totally in fantasyland. On the other hand, I don't think GA or LA is convinced that the verdict will be Not guilty, though they may be hoping so.

 

[BeanE]

For your consideration:

1 - From the 700 page doc dump on November 26, in Mark Fuhrman's interview with OCSO.

Page 2499 - "On Aug 7, 2008, Mark Fuhrman recounted his conversations with George and Cindy to OCSO. George & Cindy told him that Cindy and Casey had an argument on June 15 or 16."

This is some significant evidence that a fight took place June 15. MOO.

2 - KC told Lee that the smell in the car started around Cindy's birthday, which was on June 5. This has always stuck in my mind. I've always speculated in my own mind that this is the time period in which things really started to go south between Cindy and KC, and that serious conflict and arguments happened around this time. I can't think of any other reason, nor have I seen any other reason, *why* KC would point to this specific time period.

Combine that with Cindy pointing to the same time period, and it just seems to me that *something* serious had to have happened in that time period. It was on both Cindy and KC's minds, and maybe Lee's too.

Note: the smell in the car around Cindy's birthday comes from the 600 page doc dump containing Lee's interview with OCSO. The "two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood" story. Note the context in which Lee says this - he said KC was pouring her heart out to him about the conflict between her and Cindy. KC seems to me to be relating the June 5 time period to extreme conflict between her and Cindy. So many signs that *something* serious happened then.

3 - MOO. When I put together all the info available about fights/conflict, I come to a conclusion that there were serious fights *both* somewhere around June 5 *and* on June 15. Rage on KC's part, building over these weeks, and culminating in her killing Caylee on June 16. I think the "high" she then went on, with the partying etc, was a reaction to the release of that building rage through killing Caylee. She 'got' her mother back big time and was celebrating that. MOO

 

[debs]

Would the defense really throw CA under the bus? I don't think so. I think CA could come up with some stories about KC that we are in the dark about that KC would rather keep under her hat. If KC is truly a sociopath, she believes she will get an acquital. She's going to want to continue to ride CA's gravy train, using the grieving mother and "look what I've gone through in my young life" to pull on CA's heart strings as long as she can. She won't want to alienate her.

Personally, I don't see her getting a not guilty verdict. But, I really think KC believes that will be the outcome.

I do think it is VERY possible they will deflect from Casey by using Cindy and I'll tell you why: Cindy has spent the better part of 10 months blowing the horn of Casey is innocent, a good mother, a great daughter, a wonderful person. They've never had a conflict. There was never a problem. There were never any questions to how Casey was raising her child. She was perfect, Caylee was happy and thriving, all was golden and glittery. Where is Cindy going to be able to come up with any stories that will NOT become perjury in a court of law when all of these things are sworn statements to LE and to a court officer in a deposition?

Casey does not need Cindy's "gravy train" anymore. She's rolling in the big bucks, whoever is funding her defense. Cindy should be terrified that Casey doesn't need her, or George, anymore. They've done their work. Casey's a good mother, remember? To quote Wednesday Addam's: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

 

[marla]

I do think it is VERY possible they will deflect from Casey by using Cindy and I'll tell you why: Cindy has spent the better part of 10 months blowing the horn of Casey is innocent, a good mother, a great daughter, a wonderful person. They've never had a conflict. There was never a problem. There were never any questions to how Casey was raising her child. She was perfect, Caylee was happy and thriving, all was golden and glittery. Where is Cindy going to be able to come up with any stories that will NOT become perjury in a court of law when all of these things are sworn statements to LE and to a court officer in a deposition?

Casey does not need Cindy's "gravy train" anymore. She's rolling in the big bucks, whoever is funding her defense. Cindy should be terrified that Casey doesn't need her, or George, anymore. They've done their work. Casey's a good mother, remember? To quote Wednesday Addam's: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

One thank you isn't enough! :blowkiss:

I agree with you ..

 

[nyvictoria]

I do think it is VERY possible they will deflect from Casey by using Cindy and I'll tell you why: Cindy has spent the better part of 10 months blowing the horn of Casey is innocent, a good mother, a great daughter, a wonderful person. They've never had a conflict. There was never a problem. There were never any questions to how Casey was raising her child. She was perfect, Caylee was happy and thriving, all was golden and glittery. Where is Cindy going to be able to come up with any stories that will NOT become perjury in a court of law when all of these things are sworn statements to LE and to a court officer in a deposition?

Casey does not need Cindy's "gravy train" anymore. She's rolling in the big bucks, whoever is funding her defense. Cindy should be terrified that Casey doesn't need her, or George, anymore. They've done their work. Casey's a good mother, remember? To quote Wednesday Addam's: "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

emphasis mine

I totally agree! And that's exactly why Cindy and George (tagging along like a whipped puppy) are doing the "Casey is the perfect mother and daughter" tour. They have to show her they're willing to say anything to support her. I think they're scared s**tless!!

 

[debs]

emphasis mine

I totally agree! And that's exactly why Cindy and George (tagging along like a whipped puppy) are doing the "Casey is the perfect mother and daughter" tour. They have to show her they're willing to say anything to support her. I think they're scared s**tless!!

I meant to convey that I believe that, in doing this, they are hanging themselves out for the defense to accuse. That Casey DOES know her parents well enough to know they'll continue to cover her happy a$$ to their detriment (they had for 22 years already) and that when it gets down to it, the defense will show it is THEY who did most of the obfuscating and covering up and twisting stories, and destroying evidence, etc etc etc.

 

[BondJamesBond]

For your consideration:
Note: the smell in the car around Cindy's birthday comes from the 600 page doc dump containing Lee's interview with OCSO. The "two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood" story. Note the context in which Lee says this - he said KC was pouring her heart out to him about the conflict between her and Cindy. KC seems to me to be relating the June 5 time period to extreme conflict between her and Cindy. So many signs that *something* serious happened then.

*snip*

Thanks, BeanE. You're the best. :blowkiss:

I've been looking for the opportunity for when Casey & Lee might've had time to share the she-said-she-said, Casey-version of the 'choking' IF it happened on 6/7 as we've kinda been noodlin' out following Devon's more recent highlighting of this event.

Two things to consider...

First...here are the cell contacts between Casey & Lee for the period of interest. I truncated them after the first contact on 7/4 just to emphasize that there WASN'T much 'tween them ~6/15 via cell. Again, noting Lee indicated to Tony (IIRC) that he was outta town 3 out of 4 weeks in June, which by default...had to be the last-3.

Date DOW Time Type From To Call Duration (min)
6/8/08 SUN 8:19:05 PM INCOMING TEXT Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony
6/8/08 SUN 8:19:52 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell)
6/8/08 SUN 8:21:31 PM INCOMING TEXT Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony
6/8/08 SUN 8:23:11 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell)
6/8/08 SUN 8:23:34 PM INCOMING TEXT Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony
6/9/08 MON 1:24:46 PM INCOMING TEXT Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony
6/9/08 MON 1:35:14 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell)
6/9/08 MON 3:36:11 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell)
6/9/08 MON 3:43:55 PM OUTGOING TEXT Casey Anthony Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell)
6/10/08 TUE 8:40:43 PM INCOMING CALL Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony 1
7/4/08 FRI 1:38:52 AM INCOMING TEXT Lee "The Brosef" Anthony (Cell) Casey Anthony


The timing of these contacts ~6/8 & 9 have always appeared to me to be somehow related to perhaps Lee's traveling outta town (note all but one of them are texts...methinks phone call or face-to-face would be mandatory for a 'heart pouring'...Of course, I've secretly wondered if these were arrangements for where to find the key to the house, blah, blah...I won't belavor that point further :bang:

Second...by now I hope peeps understand we can't say with great certainty via pings when Casey was @ G&C's vs. Lee's. On another thread in the Case Analysis Forum (Lee's House...) they've been doin' some excellent sleuthin' trying to determine if any info has ever been provided that places Casey @ Lee's ever. For now...the only thing I can point to in order to SUGGEST Casey might be @ Lee's is the pattern of the cell pings on the towers.

One must undertand that when known to be @ G&C's, Casey's cell pings bounce back and forth primarily between 2 and sometimes 3 towers that form a triangle of sorts around their house & Lee's. The bouncing is pretty random...2 pings on tower A, 1 ping on tower B, 1 ping on tower A, etc.

However...from 10:30-11:24PM on Sunday, 6/8, 18 pings in a row are carried by the tower that is closest to Lee's house (of the 3). Now, during this time Casey is having a text-fest w/ Ricardo w/ the single-longest break being 20mins @ 10:53PM...otherwise...1 break of 9mins and several of <4mins.

So...IF there was an opportunity for Casey to pour her heart out to Lee re: a fight w/ Cindy involving being choked, etc., perhaps it happened face-to-face @ Lee's house ~11PM Sunday 6/8.

ETA: Just checked the entire period, and the above ties w/ only 3 other instances during the entire 6/1-6/17 period for most-pings-in-a-row-on-a-single-tower-near-G&C's. Wanna guess what was what single date/time was the only one to beat them? Cindy's Birthday, 6/5, 9:21-9:58PM. Lee stated the last time he saw Caylee was @ G&C's on Cindy's birthday. After 9PM, surely Caylee was asleep. Seems plausible Casey may have left for Lee's that evening for awhile...which may lend some creedence to the pings Sunday 6/8 10:30-11:24PM also being from Lee's, hence, possible "Mom tried to choke me!" blah, blah, blah...that night.

 

[Theonly1]

My bold: You are onto something here DP....after a long day visiting ggpa CA would have been exhausted, having taken care of Caylee all day and then there is the money issue to boot, KC ignoring CA's phone call.....CA wanting some time for herself before collapsing in bed and then having to get up early the next day to work.....but noooooooooooo,,, gotta get KC home....gotta deal with this money issue - AGAIN......CA's really gonna let KC have it this time.....storm seems to been a brewin' .....then KC gets home....FINALLY....

yeah.....that combination of events would set me off too.

And PERHAPS Cindy waited until Caylee was asleep to have a few words with Casey? It makes sense...

 

[weasel]

I thought LA said he was present and saw it?

Not that you can believe him, either. :-(

Yeah, Furman said he got the info (re: the fight, not the choking) from CA. It's in one of the supplemental LE reports.

That's what makes me wonder how in the world CA can deny they had a fight. I was also trying to remember if the neighbors reported they heard the fight and what time it occurred. I know I read it somewhere, but can't recall. I think trouble had been stewing for quite sometime, what with CA visiting a therapist to try to figure out what to do about Casey and all. In my opinion, I also think CA does feel some guilt about what happened to Caylee. For what it's worth I don't think she should, but I bet she does. Here she's been watching Caylee all day, Casey finally decides to grace them with her presence and what does she do? Immediately gets on the phone with Tony. Now that would tick me off just a bit too.

 

[weasel]

Actually, MF was thought to be a highly skilled detective. He was only on the OJ case for 30 minutes, and found the weapon (a Swiss Army knife that OJ left on the edge of the bathtub). However, a ham-handed crime scene staff lost the thing after he left. That's not the ONLY mjistake they made, either.

The racist crap was apparently just pillow talk. Even the people whom he arrested didn't beleive that he was a racist.

He was, however, a rabid sexist.

In this whole fiasco, I think I would trust Furman before any of the rest of them, besides LE. A bit OT here, but Furman got a raw deal in the OJ trial and was just used as a distraction and scape goat. If Marsha Clark hadn't totally thrown him under the bus, his reputation would still be intact. Clark herself lost the case. It's her fault OJ walked. Now, back to the topic at hand.. regarding Furman, I think if left to his own devices, he could figure out exactly what happened to Caylee. In my opinion, he really is a good detective. Read his books and I think anyone would agree.

 

[Theonly1]

I hope this isn't too OT, but I believe CA says she went back to work right away after they picked up the car and GA was there until a bit after she got back.

Correct me if I am too far off but, Cindy got back to work I believe some time after 2 or 2:30 (right after picking up the car) and told her coworkers, who in turn told her to go back home but she insisted she had work to do. Her supervisor eventually told her to go home - maybe after an hour or so? She could have gotten home by say 4 or 4:30 at the latest.

GA didn't clock in to work until around 5:30 IIRC, so IMO he was there for an hour or so BY HIMSELF before CA got back and went into washing machine - tracking-down-KC mode.

At some point (it is somewhere in the Sunshine doc release or in one of her many "interviews"), Cindy said she washed the pants at about 4:00 p.m.

 

[Theonly1]

The witness list has been added to several times and is still being added to.

ETA: there was a new witness list submitted this week, although it hasn't been made public yet.

ETA: also, wasn't that one of Baez' big complaints about the SA's office? That the SA wasn't completing their witness list in a timely manner?

I think the defense was complaining about "expert" witnesses not being complete.