Do you think a Stungun was used?

[BBB167893]

I don't know what could have made that mark, but I was looking at the ones on her back again, and they look like they could have been made my a large needle. It, imo...looks like something penetrated the skin a little.

Maybe that's what Wecht meant when he called them "punctate" marks?

 

[Ames]

Maybe that's what Wecht meant when he called them "punctate" marks?

That would be my guess...


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/punctate

punctate /punc·tate/ (punk´tat) spotted; marked with points or punctures.

They have always looked like puncture wounds to me, and correct me if I am wrong, but...I have never seen a stun gun puncture anybody.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

You know this particular discussion always gets me to come out of hiding, lol :crazy:

Thanks for posting the pic link...I almost forgot about it myself, lol.

Anyway, if anyone has not read the 'how, why and where' of my ring theory, here it is as I originally posted it:

I have a theory about the "stun gun" marks. First of
all, does anyone know if Patsy wore any rings on a
regular basis, or if she had any on at the White's
party? I'll get back to that thought in a moment.

Anyway, as peculiar as this sounds, I had a dream last
night about JB. Ok, so I am doped up on cold medicine,
so give me a little bit of room here, lol.

Basically, in the dream, I was holding JB, in a way I
often hold my own little girl. It was just a flash of
a second in my dream, but the whole thing even made
sense in the morning.

So, I tried the 'dream hold' on my daughter today.
Yes, she thinks I am nutty, lol, but I figured that a
good hug between us is welcomed at any time, no matter
what my motive.

I sat on the floor with my child in my lap, with her
legs both hanging over my left leg. She was kind of
sitting up, laying her weight on her left hip, facing
me. I held her head in my right hand and the fingers
on my right hand ended up on her right cheek and/or or
on her neck. So, I gave her a kiss on the nose, lol...

My left arm was over her right side and my left hand
ended up, quite naturally, on the lower, left side of
her back.

This is typically how I hold her when I 'rock' my
great-big baby girl, or when I carry her quickly in a
rain-storm (when walking would be too slow), or any
other time I have to move her in a hurry and I want to
get a good grip on her and hold her close at the same
time.

Try it with your own child. Make sure his or her face
is close to your face (and don't forget the kiss on
the nose.) This hug kind of looks like holding a
guitar.

Now, back to Patsy's rings (or not). Now, if PR
accidentally killed (or thought she killed) JB, there
would have been a lot of squeezing and rocking with
mother and child in this exact position. If PR was
wearing two or more rings on each hand AND she held,
and squeezed JB in this manner, (a little too hard out
of grief and overwhelming anguish) would those rings
leave marks similar to the "stun gun" marks? I think
so.

The positioning of where a grown-up's fingers would
land on a child of JB's size match up perfectly to
where the marks were found on her body. AND, the
distance between the marks (within each set of marks)
is just about the distance between two adult fingers.

Of course, the rings would most likely have been on
backwards. That is the only problem I have with this
theory. However, as I am typing, two of my rings are
reversed and they swing around constantly.

I even thought about trying this trick with four
smiley-faced-stamper rings. But, since I don't want my
poor little girl to be too severely emotionally
scarred by my obsessive sleuthing, lol, I didn't
conduct this further experiment.
+++++

I did conduct an additional 'experiment.' I am
posting a link to marks I made on the smooth part of
my right hand. I squeezed my right hand with my left
hand. I had two, round-cut rings on my left hand.
Both rings are mounted with four-prongs.

Please see the link below:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

With very little effort, I was able to reproduce the
exact markings I see on the autopsy photos of Jonbenet
Ramsey.

In addition, the marks fell approximately 3.5
centimeters apart.

As I outlined in my original post, the angle of the marks
on Jonbenet (from the autopsy photos) line up in an
identical pattern and angle to where an adult's
fingers would rest if that adult was holding a child
as I described. It is crucial to note that this is a
very common position for a parent (typically a mom) to
hold and/or rock their small child.

The positions are the same. The markings made by me
are nearly identical to the marks on Jonbenet's body.

Once again:
*The positions of the marks can be explained, within a
fraction of an inch.
*The distance between two marks of either pair of
marks can be explained.
*The angle of the marks (extremely important!) can be
explained.
*The 'weapon' or cause of the marks can be explained.
* If Patsy's rings made the marks, then evidence, or
at least witnesses can testify to their existence.
*Both the occurence of the marks and the location of
the marks can be easily re-created in any court room.
* This theory explains why 'stun gun' marks are NOT
equidistant (as they would be expected to be) on the
body of Jonbenet....

 

[angelwngs]

WG, I always thought your PR's rings turned around backwards theory had substance!

I almost reposted it when I saw the title of this new thread. Glad you were encouraged by the thread to do it yourself.

 

[JMO8778]

me too.that's the kind of evidence the grand jury SHOULD have seen!

 

[UKGuy]

You know this particular discussion always gets me to come out of hiding, lol :crazy:
http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

WolfmarsGirl,
Your theory is, I reckon, the best explanation for those marks, the other is the one based on buttons or snaps.

The stun gun is like the intruder simply a diversion avoiding the truth.


.

 

[JMO8778]

..well,aside from the rings..if they didn't cause ALL the marks,then I've always wondered what the red overalls Patsy said she washed a stain out of that morning had to do with this crime.seems to me she was trying to account for some evidence there.Uk,do you have any opinion on that?it seems pretty suspect to me that she would say that,and aside from that,I wonder if some of the marks could have come from snaps on the overalls,as most overalls would have some,I would think.
As far as the red turtleneck goes,I think that was used for a prior staging,and so to account for it,initially they told LE she wore it to bed.Of course later they recanted,apparently attorneys thought it more important they say she fell asleep and they put her straight to bed.
but I wonder if she had the overalls on,over the shirt,and they got blood on them,from the head injury?
I'm kinda confused about which shirt she would have been manually strangled with..I would think that would leave the collar stretched and twisted,and I can't see them leaving the white one on her,if that was the case,but perhaps they did.

 

[BBB167893]

me too.that's the kind of evidence the grand jury SHOULD have seen!

Among other things!

 

[angelwngs]

..well,aside from the rings..if they didn't cause ALL the marks,then I've always wondered what the red overalls Patsy said she washed a stain out of that morning had to do with this crime.seems to me she was trying to account for some evidence there.Uk,do you have any opinion on that?it seems pretty suspect to me that she would say that,and aside from that,I wonder if some of the marks could have come from snaps on the overalls,as most overalls would have some,I would think.
As far as the red turtleneck goes,I think that was used for a prior staging,and so to account for it,initially they told LE she wore it to bed.Of course later they recanted,apparently attorneys thought it more important they say she fell asleep and they put her straight to bed.
but I wonder if she had the overalls on,over the shirt,and they got blood on them,from the head injury?
I'm kinda confused about which shirt she would have been manually strangled with..I would think that would leave the collar stretched and twisted,and I can't see them leaving the white one on her,if that was the case,but perhaps they did.

I thought that there was no external blood from the head injury.

PR said that she put some dirty clothes in a paper bag to take to Michigan with them and she planned to 'take care of them when they got there'. If that was true, why wash one pair of red overalls? Washing the overalls always made me :waitasec:, too.

 

[Ames]

..well,aside from the rings..if they didn't cause ALL the marks,then I've always wondered what the red overalls Patsy said she washed a stain out of that morning had to do with this crime.seems to me she was trying to account for some evidence there.Uk,do you have any opinion on that?it seems pretty suspect to me that she would say that,and aside from that,I wonder if some of the marks could have come from snaps on the overalls,as most overalls would have some,I would think.
As far as the red turtleneck goes,I think that was used for a prior staging,and so to account for it,initially they told LE she wore it to bed.Of course later they recanted,apparently attorneys thought it more important they say she fell asleep and they put her straight to bed.
but I wonder if she had the overalls on,over the shirt,and they got blood on them,from the head injury?
I'm kinda confused about which shirt she would have been manually strangled with..I would think that would leave the collar stretched and twisted,and I can't see them leaving the white one on her,if that was the case,but perhaps they did.

But, the head injury did not bleed. What about blood from maybe her ears, nose, mouth, or all the above...after getting the head wound. I posted a website link about this awhile back, after receiving a head blow that severe, a person bleeds from their mouth, nose and/or ears. Maybe blood from these areas got onto the overalls and that is why Patsy washed out "the stain". It has always seemed weird to me too..that after such a long night of partying and packing for a trip, that she would be so concerned about a stain on a pair of overalls.

 

[JMO8778]

But, the head injury did not bleed. What about blood from maybe her ears, nose, mouth, or all the above...after getting the head wound. I posted a website link about this awhile back, after receiving a head blow that severe, a person bleeds from their mouth, nose and/or ears. Maybe blood from these areas got onto the overalls and that is why Patsy washed out "the stain". It has always seemed weird to me too..that after such a long night of partying and packing for a trip, that she would be so concerned about a stain on a pair of overalls.

that's what I meant...(I know it was a CHI.. closed head injury)..sry,I didn't mean to be confusing about that!
question is..why would she have these clothes on anyway? was it for a prior staging,or was she to wear them to bed,to be ready-to-go the next morning? LE must know more than they can say on this..

 

[Ames]

that's what I meant...(I know it was a CHI.. closed head injury)..sry,I didn't mean to be confusing about that!
question is..why would she have these clothes on anyway? was it for a prior staging,or was she to wear them to bed,to be ready-to-go the next morning? LE must know more than they can say on this..

Good question. I don't know of any reason that Patsy would want to put overalls on a chilld to sleep in....UNLESS, it would save them time in the morning. That's the only thing that I can think of. Maybe she had on the overalls with the red turtleneck...that I KNOW she was wearing when she went to bed that night. Sounds like alot of red, but it WAS Christmas afterall.

 

[DeeDee249]

There was bloody mucous in her nostrils (noted in the autopsy report) and seeping from her mouth (noted in ST's book as being on the tape). There was a tan mucous substance (dried bloody mucous would look tan, not red) on her shirt sleeve, under where her head, cocked to the right, would have been.
But the red "overalls" were described by PR as being a red jumpsuit that JBR had worn in a Christmas performance at a local mall with other little girls. It had gotten stained and PR it was this garment that PR mentions trying to clean that morning up. It may or may not have anything to do with the murder or coverup, and is not the same garment as the red turtleneck that many feel was actually worn by JBR to the White's.
The Rs lied about many things, but that doesn't mean that every single statement was a lie. As a matter of fact, in cases where someone lies about their involvement in a crime, they usually try to give credence to their statements by including some truths, in the hope that it will be felt that if some statements are are true, ALL statements are true.

 

[JMO8778]

good thought,and Patsy may have just been trying to account for herself being in that area,outside JB's room,for some reason.

 

[JMO8778]

Good question. I don't know of any reason that Patsy would want to put overalls on a chilld to sleep in....UNLESS, it would save them time in the morning. That's the only thing that I can think of. Maybe she had on the overalls with the red turtleneck...that I KNOW she was wearing when she went to bed that night. Sounds like alot of red, but it WAS Christmas afterall.

true, and unless it was just used for a prior staging,that would have been a good outfit for her to meet the others in the next day..she'd look really Christmas-y.so if she soiled it,that indeed could have made Patsy very angry.she was all about appearances,after all.

 

[DeeDee249]

true, and unless it was just used for a prior staging,that would have been a good outfit for her to meet the others in the next day..she'd look really Christmas-y.so if she soiled it,that indeed could have made Patsy very angry.she was all about appearances,after all.

It wasn't really overalls. It was a red jumpsuit that she wore to dance at a mall in a Christmas show, with several other little girls. PR described them an "her pageant girls" so I assume she meant that these were little girls JBR knew from competing in the pageants, and that they were doing a little Holiday performance in a local mall. My impression is that it was more of a "leotard" type garment- something that was more of a dance costume rather than actual overalls that could be street wear. PR used the word "jumpsuit" when she spoke about them.

 

[angelwngs]

Patsy washing that outfit when she got up does not make sense. If she was involved in the murder and the cover-up the last thing she would have been thinking about would have been washing an outfit. Even as part of more staging, it doesn't fit.

Unless everything happened very early on the morning of the 26th... Coud PR have gone into awaken JBR and tried to put the red overalls/jumpsuit on her and something tragic happened then? Would they have had time to have done all the staging from say 5 until the time of the 911 call?

Maybe in reality she washed it the night before and was planning to put it in the dryer the next morning before she left...

I don't like the info we have on the red overalls...It bothers me...

 

[JMO8778]

it bothers me too,seems she either soiled them,there was some evidence on them,or,she was trying to cover herself for being in that area,for some reason.unless,like Deedee said,it's truth mixed in w lies.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy washing that outfit when she got up does not make sense. If she was involved in the murder and the cover-up the last thing she would have been thinking about would have been washing an outfit. Even as part of more staging, it doesn't fit.

Unless everything happened very early on the morning of the 26th... Coud PR have gone into awaken JBR and tried to put the red overalls/jumpsuit on her and something tragic happened then? Would they have had time to have done all the staging from say 5 until the time of the 911 call?

Maybe in reality she washed it the night before and was planning to put it in the dryer the next morning before she left...

I don't like the info we have on the red overalls...It bothers me...

angelwngs,
I agree. If Patsy had just garroted JonBenet why bother washing her clothes?

Sounds more like a story to cover something else up.


.

 

[JMO8778]

angelwngs,
I agree. If Patsy had just garroted JonBenet why bother washing her clothes?

Sounds more like a story to cover something else up.


.

it could have been part of a prior staging,or perhaps had gotten something on it during the murder,like blood/mucous (I think JB may have bled from her nose and ears)..which she (or JR?) washed out.or perhaps she was just trying to account for being in that area, (the sink area),and I think BR's knife was kept around there,hidden by LHP?