Do you think a Stungun was used?

[DeeDee249]

There are lot of lies in the case, a lot of things that mean something. But that doesn't mean EVERYTHING means something. I don't think the red jumpsuit had a part in the case. I think she put it in the sink to wash it before anything happened to JBR. I think she knew it was stained and didn't want to leave it dirty while they were away. I think she changed the the timeline for doing this to make it more credible that she was up early getting ready for the trip. In reality, she never went to bed and probably put that jumpsuit in the sink when she got home from the White's or even before she left. PR had to say something to LE to account for her movements that morning before she found the note. To me, it adds to the idea that her timeline just doesn't add up. She says she got up around 5:30, didn't shower but got fully dressed and made up, then stopped off at the laundry area, washed out the red jumpsuit, put the red turtleneck in the sink, then went down the spiral stairs "to make coffee". All this, and she still had 2 kids to wake up, feed and get ready for a 7am flight, with the airport, what, 20-30 minutes away? I know flying on a private jet isn't the same as having to make a commercial flight that will take off without you, but still it seems like calling it close.
She was just filling in her timeline, that's all. In reality, she never went to bed that night, whether or not anyone else in the family did.

 

[Ames]

There are lot of lies in the case, a lot of things that mean something. But that doesn't mean EVERYTHING means something. I don't think the red jumpsuit had a part in the case. I think she put it in the sink to wash it before anything happened to JBR. I think she knew it was stained and didn't want to leave it dirty while they were away. I think she changed the the timeline for doing this to make it more credible that she was up early getting ready for the trip. In reality, she never went to bed and probably put that jumpsuit in the sink when she got home from the White's or even before she left. PR had to say something to LE to account for her movements that morning before she found the note. To me, it adds to the idea that her timeline just doesn't add up. She says she got up around 5:30, didn't shower but got fully dressed and made up, then stopped off at the laundry area, washed out the red jumpsuit, put the red turtleneck in the sink, then went down the spiral stairs "to make coffee". All this, and she still had 2 kids to wake up, feed and get ready for a 7am flight, with the airport, what, 20-30 minutes away? I know flying on a private jet isn't the same as having to make a commercial flight that will take off without you, but still it seems like calling it close.
She was just filling in her timeline, that's all. In reality, she never went to bed that night, whether or not anyone else in the family did.

I agree with you. And why would she bother to wash out a stain in a jumpsuit, when they were in such a hurry to get out of there for their trip? I bet that was done the night before, or even two days before. If I am in a hurry to get ready for a trip, I am not going to take the time to wash a stain out of a garment. She apparently had never heard of a STAIN STICK. But, anyway...as far as the red turtleneck goes...it was found balled up on JB's bathroom counter...I have never read before that she placed it in the sink.

 

[JMO8778]

sure,it could be just something she threw in,but based on the R's behavior..that they don't just arbitrarily do anything..makes me think she might have been trying to account for something w that comment.

 

[KoldKase]

I have wondered if the "washing the jumpsuit" explanation was because she had it in the "bag" of clothes she was supposed to be taking to Charlevoix. Maybe it was wet and Patsy was afraid they would have noticed when processing it? We don't really know what happened to that bag, as far as I know. There was mention of a black bag at the bottom of the spiral stairs in the '98 interview with Haney. Arndt also moved a bag at some point...into a closet? Sorry, can't remember exactly. Some of you may.

Or maybe Patsy was just trying to make it "sound" like a normal morning before she "found" the ransom note. It's really impossible to say from what we know.

To answer Jayelles' original question:

Why would an intruder stun gun a child, knowing it would make her scream bloody murder? Of course he would have used a stun gun on someone before that night, right? He wouldn't just wait to see "what happened" that night, with the family in the house, would he? No, that would indicate he was disorganized and stupid, and no one has ever made that argument.

Stunning anyone causes violent thrashing around after they immediately drop on the floor, and hollaring is common in grown men. A child...of course she'd scream. Since the duct tape wasn't applied until after she'd slobbered down her face, it's not likely the duct tape was applied and then she was stunned.

Also, there are no bruises on her body to indicate she was in anyway thrashing around, or that she'd fallen to the floor violently, or that she fought AT ALL.

The skin was not pierced or burned. There is no erratic bruising under the skin which would have happened if a stun gun had been PUSHED HARD into the skin while being discharged, as I've seen suggested accounted for the loud sound of the stun gun not being heard. The Ramseys never awoke, according to them, when HEARING a loud sound of a stun gun.

There is no evidence that supports any stun gun being used that I have ever seen. I can understand why people see those marks and think that, but as you've all said, other things could have made those marks.

 

[Ames]

I have wondered if the "washing the jumpsuit" explanation was because she had it in the "bag" of clothes she was supposed to be taking to Charlevoix. Maybe it was wet and Patsy was afraid they would have noticed when processing it? We don't really know what happened to that bag, as far as I know. There was mention of a black bag at the bottom of the spiral stairs in the '98 interview with Haney. Arndt also moved a bag at some point...into a closet? Sorry, can't remember exactly. Some of you may.

Or maybe Patsy was just trying to make it "sound" like a normal morning before she "found" the ransom note. It's really impossible to say from what we know.

To answer Jayelles' original question:

Why would an intruder stun gun a child, knowing it would make her scream bloody murder? Of course he would have used a stun gun on someone before that night, right? He wouldn't just wait to see "what happened" that night, with the family in the house, would he? No, that would indicate he was disorganized and stupid, and no one has ever made that argument.

Stunning anyone causes violent thrashing around after they immediately drop on the floor, and hollaring is common in grown men. A child...of course she'd scream. Since the duct tape wasn't applied until after she'd slobbered down her face, it's not likely the duct tape was applied and then she was stunned.

Also, there are no bruises on her body to indicate she was in anyway thrashing around, or that she'd fallen to the floor violently, or that she fought AT ALL.

The skin was not pierced or burned. There is no erratic bruising under the skin which would have happened if a stun gun had been PUSHED HARD into the skin while being discharged, as I've seen suggested accounted for the loud sound of the stun gun not being heard. The Ramseys never awoke, according to them, when HEARING a loud sound of a stun gun.

There is no evidence that supports any stun gun being used that I have ever seen. I can understand why people see those marks and think that, but as you've all said, other things could have made those marks.

I agree. I have seen JB's marks with actual stun guns marks for comparison. The actual stun gun marks are farther apart. Also, if you read the autopsy report and then look at the picture of the marks..you will find that the marks are dented in. Its not just on the surface...whatever made the marks left an indention...maybe a ring, or something.

 

[azwriter]

....
Why would an intruder stun gun a child, knowing it would make her scream bloody murder? Of course he would have used a stun gun on someone before that night, right? He wouldn't just wait to see "what happened" that night, with the family in the house, would he? No, that would indicate he was disorganized and stupid, and no one has ever made that argument.

Stunning anyone causes violent thrashing around after they immediately drop on the floor, and hollaring is common in grown men. A child...of course she'd scream. Since the duct tape wasn't applied until after she'd slobbered down her face, it's not likely the duct tape was applied and then she was stunned.
QUOTE]

Beside the noise made by the one who has been stunned, there's the noise the gun itself would make. I'm sure it would be enough to wake anyone. It's not a noise you generally hear in your home.
And, as you mentioned, just when was JonBenet sun gunned? Before of after the intruder fed her the pineapple?
There's no way a stun gun was used in this case.

 

[Chrishope]

....
Why would an intruder stun gun a child, knowing it would make her scream bloody murder? Of course he would have used a stun gun on someone before that night, right? He wouldn't just wait to see "what happened" that night, with the family in the house, would he? No, that would indicate he was disorganized and stupid, and no one has ever made that argument.

Stunning anyone causes violent thrashing around after they immediately drop on the floor, and hollaring is common in grown men. A child...of course she'd scream. Since the duct tape wasn't applied until after she'd slobbered down her face, it's not likely the duct tape was applied and then she was stunned.
QUOTE]

Beside the noise made by the one who has been stunned, there's the noise the gun itself would make. I'm sure it would be enough to wake anyone. It's not a noise you generally hear in your home.
And, as you mentioned, just when was JonBenet sun gunned? Before of after the intruder fed her the pineapple?
There's no way a stun gun was used in this case.

Absolutely correct.

 

[BBB167893]

I second.

 

[madeleine]

No,I don't believe that a stungun was used.Why bother to bait her with the pineapple if so?

There was no intruder IMO so there was no stungun,also IMO.

 

[JaneInOz]

Did I read that in fact the marks could be from one of PR's rings ?

 

[cami]

If it could be proved that a stungun HAD been used, then it would make it very unlikely that the Ramseys were involved in Jonbenet's murder.

However, it has not been proved that a stungun was used. According to the leading expert on stunguns (Robert Stratbucker), the marks do not resemble stungun marks. He did extensive tests on humans and his expertise goes back for a few decades.

Stratbucker was deposed in Wolf vs Ramsey case, but Lin wood's questioning focused more on his professional ties to Taser Inc who hired him because of his expertise in stunguns.

The Ramsey expert, Michael Doberson proved himself NOT to be such an expert when it was revealed that in fact, he FAILED to spot stungun marks in a murder case where a stungun had in fact been used. He also famously said that you "cannot tell" from a photograph.

I did my own tests using a computer graphics program, a steel ruler and the best quality images I could find of Doberson's pig experiment and Jonbenet's autopsy photos. I scaled them all to real size then printed them out on acetate and overlaid them. The pig marks matched the stungun prongs exactly but jonBenet's marks did not - they were much smaller and closer together. I documented my methodology and urged others to replicate it so that they could dispute or corroborate my findings. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has taken me up on that although many criticised my experiment and one person stated that it had "many flaws in logic". That person refused to say what these flaws were - despite being asked 6 times by me.

I also take issue with the apparent lack of a second mark on Jonbenet's face. Stunguns need to make two contact points to work. Ramsey supporters say the second prong landed on the duct tape and that is why there is only one mark. I asked a physician about this and he said that it is possible that duct tape would act as insulation and that the stungun would not work if one prong landed on duct tape. He conceded that he'd need to know more about the duct tape and the stungun before he could say with absolutely certainty.

RST also say that there is a little spot of glue on Jonbenet's face and this was where the second prong of the stungun laned - melting the glue on the sticky side of the duct tape. However, the issue I take with this (apart from the possibility that teh duct tape would act as insulation) is that it would be quite compelling if this were the case. So why didn't Lou Smit shout it from the rooftops in defence of his stungun theory? Tests to that glue - even tests to the duct tape would reveal whether heat had been applied to it.

So here we are - none the wiser. It's almost certainly too late to exhume and perform tests on her tissues.

So are you convinced by the stungun theory or not?

Not, they are grasping at straws. The marks are bruises not burns from a stungun. Just another avenue to support the Ramseys, the real killers.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not, they are grasping at straws. The marks are bruises not burns from a stungun. Just another avenue to support the Ramseys, the real killers.

I am probably the only RDI who thinks it possible that a stun gun could have been used. I just can't rule it out, in view of the fact that a stun gun video was found in the home, and the Rs admitted it was theirs. It was in Spanish, which they pointed out, but you can watch it and still get a grasp of how to operate the stun gun. As we know, no stun gun was found. (Anyone check that golf bag? Search the Rs as they left? Search Aunty P?- didn't think so).
But it seems suspicious that the Rs would admit they owned a stun gun video, but deny owning the actual stun gun. Obviously, they WANT it to be thought that a stun gun was used, yet refused to allow exhumation to test the tissue while it was still early enough to tell.
If a stun gun was used, I can only envision two scenarios. One, that it was used after she was dead or unconscious to enhance the appearance of an intruder's botched kidnapping OR two, IF BR was somehow involved, possibly with JAR or DS, (which is the only way I think he could be involved) then they could have used it to subdue her. She did scream, and that could have been the reason why. If you look very closely, you can see a faint mark on her cheek, parallel to the mark we are all familiar with. It does not look like the abrasion we see, but it seems to be in the position that lines up like the pair of marks on her back. If the duct tape was in the way and prevented the abrasion, as we see on the part of her cheek NOT covered by the tape, then I thing we can assume that if a stun gun was used, it was after she was unconscious, because we know the tape was put on an unconscious JBR.
Of the two, I lean towards the first one, that if one was used, it was part of the staging.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree Deedee,and to think that an intruder, who wanted to remain silent in the house, would use a stungun,of all things?? That would only MAKE her scream! Hardly the picture of a quiet intruder slipping in and taking JB silently from her bed."Hey,I got an idea...she's sleeping...let's stun gun her first!!" And yet JR presented that same scenario in DOI.Sure,real bright.... ::rolling eyes::

 

[BBB167893]

It's not THE stupidest thing I've ever heard...but it's in the top ten.

 

[JMO8778]

LOL,how's this for top 10..I was reading at ffj that someone out there on the net thought I was ms mcsanta???? ..noooo...wrong part of the country,I'm not that old,and a whole host of other things.and yes,jmo=just my opinion.I'd read here long enough to figure it might make a good username when I joined.

 

[DeeDee249]

LOL,how's this for top 10..I was reading at ffj that someone out there on the net thought I was ms mcsanta???? ..noooo...wrong part of the country,I'm not that old,and a whole host of other things.and yes,jmo=just my opinion.I'd read here long enough to figure it might make a good username when I joined.

Not to mention the fact that McSanta is, well, dead.

 

[JMO8778]

well that does it..I'm not her.thanks,I knew Santa Bill had died,I didn't know she did,too.how's that for rst tactics.

back to topic,I don't think it was a stungun,one reason is that theory was not introduced until Smit came into the pic.(enough said).

 

[DeeDee249]

well that does it..I'm not her.thanks,I knew Santa Bill had died,I didn't know she did,too.how's that for rst tactics.

back to topic,I don't think it was a stungun,one reason is that theory was not introduced until Smit came into the pic.(enough said).

My error. I didn't think you were referring to MRS. McSanta- I thought you meant Bill.

But didn't I read something about Janet recently, too? Because I kinda remember seeing her name in the news again.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't know,last thing I recall is when Santa Bill died,and she was talking about how upset he was that anyone would ever think that he had anything to do w JB's murder.If I recall correctly,he got thrown under the bus as much as some of the others did,if not more.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know,last thing I recall is when Santa Bill died,and she was talking about how upset he was that anyone would ever think that he had anything to do w JB's murder.If I recall correctly,he got thrown under the bus as much as some of the others did,if not more.

Worse: he was the DA's number one suspect. He was their main target.