do you think maddie is alive or dead

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Do you have a link from a valid source too support this claim? Keela was a blood dog so it's true she could have hit on anything blood related, but Eddie was EVRD only trained too smell cadaver odor it is not possible he hit on blood.

I've seen an elderly woman die in a car accident that I was involved in. I watched them drag her body out of a pond ( her van flipped multiple times and ended up upside down in a pond on the corner of the road) there is nothing you can compare the smell of death too, & it's something you will never forget!

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

 

[Gem2626]

Here's a link from the American Rescue Dog Associations (ARDA) "Human Remains Detection Certification Evaluation" showing allowable scent materials that are used in HRD dog certification.




http://ardainc.org/about_standard.html

http://ardainc.org/docs/ARDA_Human_Remains_Evaluation.pdf

To avoid any confusion about the blood

The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

 

[Inana]

BBM

It's very likely that he bought that car used. Who know's how many owner's it previously had. Not much of a difference from the McCann's renting one imoo...

What does BBM mean?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

what does bbm mean?

bolded by me...

 

[Jmoose]

From our resident verified K9 poster -

Eddie is trained to alert to human decomp odor (be that blood, flesh, purge fluids, etc). Keela is trained for blood and blood only. You can have one or both alert. Both of the alerts mean things separately and then together.

You can have HR odor but no external blood present. If that is the case then only Eddie will alert. Keela will not. If you have external blood then both dogs should alert.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - the cadaver dog

So...did both dogs alert at the villa, or just one (I beg everyone's pardon, but I am not up to speed). Did they only seRch with the dogs at the villa that the McCanns rented, or did they search others, too? I assume they did search more than one since I believe that is what they typically do when checking to see where the dogs will "indicate"

 

[tezi]

Sure it is.. It was not a rental. Rentals mean new people every week.. Just not at all the same thing/.

Maybe it was a brand new rental. That is possible.

JMO



My new signature: "Frankly my dear, I don't give a Dapper Dan!"

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Maybe it was a brand new rental. That is possible.

JMO



My new signature: "Frankly my dear, I don't give a Dapper Dan!"

Not likely.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480805/If-McCanns-hire-car-vital-evidence-driving-left.html

"The friend said the car, believed to have been rented from Eurocar at Faro airport, had been hired on May 28 --25 days after Madeleine vanished.
And she revealed that "a variety of other named drivers" had access to it over the 72 days before it was taken in to be swabbed on August 7.
The revelation suggests that any traces of blood in the car could not be directly linked to Madeleine's parents."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ital-evidence-driving-left.html#ixzz2hGh5jjUE
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Deleted member 39678]

'
Mine as well copy and paste the entire thing!
This is why I believe in Eddie and what he does!

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.

Snipped and BBM

I want to address Martin Grime's testimony about scent detection dogs being prevented from "cueing" by their handlers. More recent research about the problem of dog handlers "cueing" their dogs may shed some light on the subject. Directing scent detention dogs by pointing where they are to search may in fact cue them to give false alerts.

Pointing Gestures and False Alerts: Recent Research Suggests How Dogs May Turn into Walking Search Warrants

Eighteen police dog teams entered a church where there were no drugs, and where residual odors were unlikely, yet 17 of the 18 teams alerted to the presence of target odors, most multiple times. In a paper that caused a good deal of consternation in the police dog world, three scientists at the University of California at Davis argued that the false alerts arose from the fact that the police dog handlers had been led to believe that there were drugs inside the church. The handlers had cued their dogs. The results were not videotaped and the authors of the paper did not state exactly how the dogs had been induced to alert when their training should have prevented this. Recent research on human pointing gestures and dog responses goes some way towards explaining how this may have happened.

The UC Davis study is very interesting and this article about how humans pointing effects a dogs response may help explain the results found.

Meanwhile, research such as that discussed here provides important guidance for supervisors concerned with handlers whose dogs’ alerts are too often leading to pointless investigations, and defense counsel who want to question whether a dog was reliable enough to base probable cause on its alert.

I think that it's a good idea to understand the problems that scent detection dogs may have in criminal investigations. Just saying that the dogs don't lie doesn't cut it for me. The science is what should drive the discussion.

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2013/09/pointing-gestures-and-false-alerts.html

 

[Gem2626]

Snipped and BBM

I want to address Martin Grime's testimony about scent detection dogs being prevented from "cueing" by their handlers. More recent research about the problem of dog handlers "cueing" their dogs may shed some light on the subject. Directing scent detention dogs by pointing where they are to search may in fact cue them to give false alerts.

Pointing Gestures and False Alerts: Recent Research Suggests How Dogs May Turn into Walking Search Warrants



The UC Davis study is very interesting and this article about how humans pointing effects a dogs response may help explain the results found.



I think that it's a good idea to understand the problems that scent detection dogs may have in criminal investigations. Just saying that the dogs don't lie doesn't cut it for me. The science is what should drive the discussion.

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2013/09/pointing-gestures-and-false-alerts.html

Exactly why I wish the rental car didn't have pictures of Madeleine all over it. The dog handler could have inadvertently affected the dogs response.

Yep dogs may not deliberately lie but they can make mistakes. They are not 100% accurate.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Exactly why I wish the rental car didn't have pictures of Madeleine all over it. The dog handler could have inadvertently affected the dogs response.

Yep dogs may not deliberately lie but they can make mistakes. They are not 100% accurate.

And the dogs handlers may not be consciously cueing them to give false alerts. But it can happen.

When I look at this case and take the dog alerts out of the equation there's little left that points towards Madeleine's parents.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yep the dogs are crap.

Now, how about that IDI evidence?

 

[redheadedgal]

I don't cross cases. One case at a time and I keep them separate unless crossed by the same offender. So I will only discuss the case I am one currently.

Things happen to good people that watch their kids diligently. Sometimes awful stuff still happens. Jessica Lunsford. Taken right from her tiny house. Elizabeth Smart, Taken from her tiny house...

Susan Jaeger..

But when I look at cases like CA where they got her on lying? or child neglect first and then the murder charges came..

I was watching Elizabeth Smart today, And so astounded by her story and what she endured, and how she survived. I know she was older but I just have to hold out hope for this little girl.

:facepalm:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Yep the dogs are crap.

Now, how about that IDI evidence?

Jane saw her being carried away.. That is pretty much as big as it gets..



"Key witness Jane Tanner saw a dark-haired man carrying away a child wearing pink floral pyjamas about the time that the four-year-old vanished from her parents' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-insists-Tapas-Nine-friend.html#ixzz2hH5kOaX8
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Yep the dogs are crap.

Now, how about that IDI evidence?

I don't think that working dogs are "crap." I think they can do some incredible things that can help us humans in many ways.

In criminal investigations I think that they can be used as a tool to get probable cause for a search warrant. They may even find actual evidence that can be sent to a lab, analyzed, tested and used in court.

Saying that dog alerts by themselves are evidence is not something that I agree with. MOO.

 

[Tulessa]

Alive and well.

 

[jordynsmommy529]

It's all just a big coincidence they hit where DNA was found.:banghead: I'am done with this argument. If this investigation is properly done and all players that are involved are properly looked at, we will have justice for Madeleine.:jail: Their is no point in continuing this discussion. As I have said before you CANNOT prove the dog's alert was false, anymore then I can prove it was accurate all depend's on what you believe. Kate and Gerry will go down along with a few of their friends if this is done properly imoo of course... :moo:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It's all just a big coincidence they hit where DNA was found.:banghead: I'am done with this argument. If this investigation is properly done and all players that are involved are properly looked at, we will have justice for Madeleine.:jail: Their is no point in continuing this discussion. As I have said before you CANNOT prove the dog's alert was false, anymore then I can prove it was accurate all depend's on what you believe. Kate and Gerry will go down along with a few of their friends if this is done properly imoo of course... :moo:

DNA on what? The toy??? It should be there.. the car, It should be there, The hotel room? It should be there. her DNA could possible be anywhere she was. Drooling, touching, All leave DNA. Kids have DNA all over them. They touch their faces and then everything else.

The problem is it can not be proven the dog hit meant anything vital because of the circumstances of the room and the fact that the DNA was supposed to be anywhere she was or on anything she touched.

 

[Linda7NJ]

DNA on what? The toy??? It should be there.. the car, It should be there, The hotel room? It should be there. her DNA could possible be anywhere she was. Drooling, touching, All leave DNA. Kids have DNA all over them. They touch their faces and then everything else.

The problem is it can not be proven the dog hit meant anything vital because of the circumstances of the room and the fact that the DNA was supposed to be anywhere she was or on anything she touched.

And all the things the poor child came into contact with after she died ...as she began decomposing and emitting the scent of caverdine...


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[ScarlettScarpetta]

And all the things the poor child came into contact with after she died ...as she began decomposing and emitting the scent of caverdine...


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No proof she is dead.The dog may have hit on something that was decomposing in the room or on the surfaces. Skinned knees, blood, scabs.. All possibilities.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No proof she is dead.The dog may have hit on something that was decomposing in the room or on the surfaces. Skinned knees, blood, scabs.. All possibilities.

Amazing there were no hits in other hotel rooms and other cars..no skinned knees, blood, scabs...
As you insist that's what the dogs must have hit on.
Quite the coincidence huh? Two dogs alerted to the same places, one trained specifically on locating human corpses decomposing and the other for blood... One little girl missing...under the most ridiculous circumstances...and her parents excuses for the dog hits are beyond laughable.

All IMO


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