Ebola outbreak - general thread #4

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  • #461
  • #462
I'm not a medical professional but I certainly wonder if it has anything to do with people's immune system when they live in a more sanitary environment.

A more sanitary environment often makes people MORE vulnerable to many pathogens if they get exposed. Polio is a perfect example, before modern "sanitary" water supplies most everyone was exposed to polio as infants and got antibodies from their mothers, virtually NO ONE got sick from Polio. But once that exposure was interrupted due to sanitary water supplies individuals were exposed for the first time as older children or adults, and the results were devastating.

Another example, when I took in a stray dog that had puppies 2 days later I asked my vet if I needed to quarantine my house to protect the puppies from disease. He said no worries, a stray dog has been exposed to MOST local diseases and has antibodies which will protect the pups, dogs kept in sanitary environments are MUCH more susceptible because they do not have prior exposure or antibodies.

Plus I don't think sanitary precautions played a role in the apartment where Duncan became ill.
 
  • #463
Maybe he should have been more forthcoming about his contact with a sick woman who died hours later. Hospital claims he told them he was not around anyone sick. Which clearly was not the case.

Again, patients are not always forthcoming on questions. Healthcare workers know this. The joke is always, for example, "multiply by 3 the number of drinks a patient reports having per week". Because patients are not always fully honest.

Again, travel history plus symptoms should have been enough. Anyone relying on patients to be 100% forthcoming is foolish at best. They are a hospital, they receive CDC bulletins and guidelines, they have a duty to catch these things.

And this is even leaving out the question as to whether Mr Duncan knew he was helping an Ebola patient or a pregnant and convulsing woman.


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  • #464
I used to have a farm, so I have lots of pump sprayers and all types of gear that will help if the you know what hits the fan. I am jealous of your respirator and have not pulled the trigger yet at Amazon. I did, however, order some re-hydration powder.

I would like to request a photo of you suited up when you get all your gear:biggrin:

I wonder if a air purifier would be a good idea to have.
 
  • #465
  • #466
Again, patients are not always forthcoming on questions. Healthcare workers know this. The joke is always, for example, "multiply by 3 the number of drinks a patient reports having per week". Because patients are not always fully honest.

Again, travel history plus symptoms should have been enough. Anyone relying on patients to be 100% forthcoming is foolish at best. They are a hospital, they receive CDC bulletins and guidelines, they have a duty to catch these things.

And this is even leaving out the question as to whether Mr Duncan knew he was helping an Ebola patient or a pregnant and convulsing woman.


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You are correct, in a perfect world the hospital WOULD have realized the risk.

Having said that the INDIVIDUAL that is sick and wants effective TREATMENT immediately had best tell the whole story immediately.

I don't believe for a second that Duncan had NO CLUE Ebola was in his area of Liberia, or that he didn't realize it was a possibility. He may have been in denial, but he surely knew it was a possibility. If he didn't tell the medical folks that then HE most certainly takes some responsibility for not getting prompt treatment.
 
  • #467
Just read that he was cleared this morning, does not have Ebola.

Sudan is thousands of miles away from where the outbreak is happening.


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OK TY Gardenlady!
 
  • #468
A more sanitary environment often makes people MORE vulnerable to many pathogens if they get exposed. Polio is a perfect example, before modern "sanitary" water supplies most everyone was exposed to polio as infants and got antibodies from their mothers, virtually NO ONE got sick from Polio. But once that exposure was interrupted due to sanitary water supplies individuals were exposed for the first time as older children or adults, and the results were devastating.

Another example, when I took in a stray dog that had puppies 2 days later I asked my vet if I needed to quarantine my house to protect the puppies from disease. He said no worries, a stray dog has been exposed to MOST local diseases and has antibodies which will protect the pups, dogs kept in sanitary environments are MUCH more susceptible because they do not have prior exposure or antibodies.

Plus I don't think sanitary precautions played a role in the apartment where Duncan became ill.

Exactly. I have several chronic and debilitating health problems. I just saw my Pakistani doctor last Wednesday. While we were discussing my health, he brought up the fact that third world countries actually have MORE, not less resistance to diseases than Americans or other more "advanced" nations.

His explanation was exactly as you described. People who live in third world countries actually have MORE antibodies built up due to constant exposure to diseases that are unheard of in America or other advanced countries.

Which only seems to lead me to one conclusion. People from North America, Europe, and the Southern Hemisphere are more likely to become infected than those who have been exposed to these diseases since they were born.
 
  • #469
Just read that he was cleared this morning, does not have Ebola.

Sudan is thousands of miles away from where the outbreak is happening.


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OK TY Gardenlady! Boy that was fast!
 
  • #470
I do have a link but am afraid to post it. Mods have posted that we can't "criticize the family" and I'm afraid by posting the link that it would be criticizing the family.

Okay. That was weird. I thought I had quoted the original post where someone asked for a link but the original quoted I responded to didn't show up.

It must just be me not being accustomed to the board. Sorry!
 
  • #471
  • #472
  • #473
Exactly. I have several chronic and debilitating health problems. I just saw my Pakistani doctor last Wednesday. While we were discussing my health, he brought up the fact that third world countries actually have MORE, not less resistance to diseases than Americans or other more "advanced" nations.

His explanation was exactly as you described. People who live in third world countries actually have MORE antibodies built up due to constant exposure to diseases that are unheard of in America or other advanced countries.

Which only seems to lead me to one conclusion. People from North America, Europe, and the Southern Hemisphere are more likely to become infected than those who have been exposed to these diseases since they were born.

Yes, and maybe. The genetic lottery can play a part too. Europeans are more likely to be resistant to HIV than are Africans, because of mutations associated with the Black Plague that ravaged Europe centuries ago.

It is possible that if the Ebola virus uses an infection method that is similar to other common viruses that WERE prevalent in European or Asian populations there may be some natural resistance. Plus the whole lifestyle differences are huge.
 
  • #474
Our paper Had an article about Mr. Duncan's condition when he first went to the hospital. The article mentioned that the nurse entered a temperature of 103° when he was first received in the ER and that he had been to Africa and of course listed his other symptoms. The article also said that in the computer documentation a temperature of the hundred and 3° was highlighted with the red exclamation point. The! In documentation is a signal but something should or must be done. Funny that the doctors documentation indicated that he had no fever. The hospital change this story three times on what happened that might've caused us to Duncan to fall through the cracks. I suspect the nurse who triaged this patient was very vocal because it look like the blame was being put on her or him. This nurse probably had discussions with the hospitals risk management department. I want to complain to the risk management department of the hospital I worked in because a patient who had recently given birth was threatened in the emergency room that she would not receive any pain medication unless she went to a public hospital. This patient did not have any private insurance and was only covered by Medicaid, and she was distraught the whole time she was in the hospital after having her baby. If you don't think hospitals deliver preferential treatment you may be lucky that you never received it.
 
  • #475
You are correct, in a perfect world the hospital WOULD have realized the risk.

Having said that the INDIVIDUAL that is sick and wants effective TREATMENT immediately had best tell the whole story immediately.

I don't believe for a second that Duncan had NO CLUE Ebola was in his area of Liberia, or that he didn't realize it was a possibility. He may have been in denial, but he surely knew it was a possibility. If he didn't tell the medical folks that then HE most certainly takes some responsibility for not getting prompt treatment.

Well, Mr Duncan is dead. If there was a price for him to pay, it seems he's already paid the ultimate one. Not sure what else folks want done with him - shall we burn his corpse publicly? Burn him in effigy? :ohoh:

The hospital on the other hand, is still here, and has a legal and ethical responsibility in the matter. No matter how any potential suit pans out, I would hope that they, and any other hospital and health department here in the US, is paying attention and learns from this.


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  • #476
News folk are focusing on Dallas hospital - good in terms of learning curve. They are, however acting like a medical error is a unheard of entity.

Humans error . Period. Part of the human condition. One could say they do not impact a whole bunch of people. Since 2008 vehicular deaths have killed of 170,000. What do we call them – accidents.

But it is not contagious.......what the mistake was made about does not change the reality that it was a mistake. Nothing more. The entire "event" thus far has taken the stance that IF that did not occur things would be different. We can not know that, the media are not helping anyone by focusing on a group of some people, who spend their work days helping people, working in exhausting, stressful emotionally draining environs.


All variables that impact performance precisely because they are human beings. There is no human being protected from fatigue and its impact, on performance, in any domain. It could be working on garden or it could be flying the A380.

Fatigue is fatigue. It was the first "event". Humans do “learning” curves in different ways. But all learning is weakest when it is the "first" time.

Casues of medical errors :

the 5 most commonly mus-diagnosed diseases are: infection, neoplasm, cordiality infarction, pulmonary embolism, and cardiovascular disease.[

Poor communication (whether in one's own language or, as may be the case for medical tourists,-another language),

Human error has been implicated in nearly 80 percent of adverse events that occur in complex health care systems.

vast majority of medical errors result from faulty systems and poorly designed processes versus poor practices or incompetent practitioners.[


improper documentation, illegible handwriting, inadequate nurse-to-patient ratios,

Variations in health care provider training & experience

cognitive pitfalls", biases which cloud our logic. For example, a practitioner may overvalue the first data encountered, skewing his thinking. Or recent or dramatic cases which come quickly to mind and may color judgment.

One study found that being awake for over 24 hours caused medical interns to double or triple the number of preventable medical errors, including those that resulted in injury or death.[3

The risk of car crash after these shifts increased by 168%, and the risk of near miss by 460%

fatigue[35][36][37] depression and burnout.[38]



Factors related to the clinical setting include diverse patients, unfamiliar settings, time pressures, and increased patient to nurse staffing ratio increases.[

Patient actions may also contribute significantly to medical errors.

medical care entails some level of risk,

Common misconceptions regarding an adverse event:

Bad apples" or incompetent health care providers are a common cause

High risk procedures (me, actually less chance of medical error)complex procedures entail more risk, adverse outcomes are not usually due to error, but to the severity of the condition being treated.)



:This is true of any activity completed by humans. Perceived need to go slow careful etc. IN anything repetitive performance decreases. One is familiar with the behavior. Doing an encasement on a typical admission compared to a patient coming in with their head turned around in a car accident. It awakens need to be more focused.

What is the benefit for the media to endlessly go over this. It is past. In reality, sounds horrible (same in aviation, there are milestone accidents that result in profound changes and improvement.) Same here, this has markedly resulted in actions that will reduce the likelihood of a familiar error (backlash here is what we are seeing IMO. If a symptom of a new illness was their nose falls off that is a lot "better" than the best indicator is running a fever)

I ran a fever coming off of coffee! No joke. A boo boo on a finger can result in a fever.

the medias notion that a "fever" should have resulted in this firestorm of ha mat trucks, tents,armies of folks , fences being put up alb alb. Most people do not die from a fever, so the red flag is really unlikely. A pt coming into an emergency room with a knife in their in there heart results in different responses.

Hospitals have made changes. This is positive . This mistake resulted in one sad death. Forgetting to turn off propane pipeline different end result.


We do not know if three nurses called off, if 4 four heart attacks were admitted right before he walked in. We do not know if staff had trouble with the accent. We do not know if staff member found out the night before that a family turned from stable to critical, if ones pet passed two days ago. Variables that impact us, as a result of being human. That simple IMO.

Instead of the media focusing on a team of infallible human beings - this could have been a teaching moment if the media were as endlessly broad casting blame instead of repeating the importance of taking travel history with more acumen. That is beneficial. That is a compnent of their real responsibilities.

Enough already, CNN move forward , use it as an educational opportunity.

I am also confident that the individuals, involved the situation that fateful day in the ER are living their own private anguish as a result of their involvement in what occurred

For those pained folk to be turning on the TV to hear media endlessly blaming you for what is inevitable. Has got to be hard in itself

Without doubt IMO, the notion if this had not occurred America would have, in eternity, never had an Ebola case here, is just ludicrous......................................................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_error

And just one more thing! This new screening IMO, is a compete joke. There are going to be millions and millions of folks who get on a plane , running a fever, wiht no connection to Ebola, what a mess this is gonna .................IMO, lets watch 🤬🤬🤬 that snarls up everything....does nothing to end "ebola



Its govenrment folks bsing people so they look on the ball.....the millions that is gonna be spent on this would be better spent going to Africa and deal wiht issue at ground zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
 
  • #477
This survey on local (Detroit) news site is still available for voting. Scroll down the homepage for the poll on right margin.

What do you think about screening at airports for those with possible Ebola symptoms?

- We need to do more screening to keep Ebola from spreading

- There should be less screening

- I think the light screening going on right now is just fine

http://www.clickondetroit.com/
 
  • #478
Yes, and maybe. The genetic lottery can play a part too. Europeans are more likely to be resistant to HIV than are Africans, because of mutations associated with the Black Plague that ravaged Europe centuries ago.

It is possible that if the Ebola virus uses an infection method that is similar to other common viruses that WERE prevalent in European or Asian populations there may be some natural resistance. Plus the whole lifestyle differences are huge.

I can remember reading an article which I think I linked to at the time, but it was probably about two or even three threads ago now. It was talking about Ebola and did mention something about people with a certain genetic profile potentially having a greater level of resistance to Ebola. I really wish I could remember more. I have tried checking my own posts but I can't scroll back far enough.
 
  • #479
  • #480
The Dallas hospital did not make a medical mistake. If they had made a mistake they would not have lied about what was or was not communicated. The hospital was in CYA mode and this happens in most cases of medical negligence. It's done very often but is much harder to get away with thanks to electronic records. Another staff member or management team can no longer change documentation on electronic records. In the past, paper documentation would mysteriously disappear from the records. An NICU I worked in had a complete record disappear along with the surgeon of one of its patients after the patient died.
 
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