EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

[nosysw]

The state can change their theory at any time, and as many times as they want, I would assume. The defense is entitled to evidence only, not theories. So, I would assume, and someone please jump in if I'm wrong, the state can even throw out a false "theory we're working on" as a red herring at any time. As long as they're not withholding evidence, they're in the clear. At least that's how I see it...

 

[Madeleine74]

I think if SM really had left his wife, as he allegedly said on that payphone call, he wouldn't be feeling guilty about his wife's feelings because he'd have dumped her and he'd have managed to be with HE. At that point it would be HE's feelings he'd be more concerned about since he declared he wanted to be with her.

If TM acted alone and did this crime as payback for the affair (an affair that had ended at least 6 weeks before supposedly) then why would SM need to feel guilty for TM's actions and sit in jail and be willing to maybe spend the rest of his life in jail if convicted? It would have been TM's choice to seek revenge. I don't see SM throwing himself on a sword and willing to spend life in prison out of a sense of guilt. If he was that sensitive to his wife's feelings then he would have avoided cheating in the first place. Having both spouses sit in jail awaiting trial but only one of them committed a crime seems very far fetched to me. The innocent spouse would not want to sit in jail.

And what was that payphone call about if SM was not involved? SM *really* left his wife? Why was it so urgent that he needed to call Heather at 1:36am on a Wednesday morning to announce this? I think it was a call to lure HE into a trap and both SM & TM are involved in some way.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Honestly, I believe Sidney does whatever Tammy tells him to do. Who else would allow their wife to handcuff them to the bed each night and confiscate their cell phone? (Not including 2 adults willingly engaging in a role-play type scenario) Also the sex in public and photo sent to Heather. And I'm not judging anyone that finds sex in public exciting, I believe it was done to hurt Heather. moo



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[jillycat]

The state can change their theory at any time, and as many times as they want, I would assume. The defense is entitled to evidence only, not theories. So, I would assume, and someone please jump in if I'm wrong, the state can even throw out a false "theory we're working on" as a red herring at any time. As long as they're not withholding evidence, they're in the clear. At least that's how I see it...

I would hope that probable cause and arrest warrants are based on more than theory, and in this case, that designating PTL as the murder scene and referring to that on a warrant as "fact" is something that has more teeth than 'we think so, but this is subject to change'. At least I can't imagine a scenario where the defense, whose clients are locked up based on that probable cause, are going to tolerate an ever-shifting set of theories. All this does is point to the probability the arrest was based on a 'what we can get away with for now...we'll fill in the blanks later' foundation.

I think there's a decided difference between room in legal language such as "on or about", which is standard in police documents, and limiting your case to a location for which you appear to have little or no evidence of murder. What actually happened may align perfectly with LE's theory. But I suspect it is just that - theory. And to later change something as central to the state's case as the scene of the murder would also potentially create a need to change the timeline, the whereabouts of the parties at various times, explain alibis, and ultimately bear up under the scrutiny of the defense who will argue, "What else did they get so wrong about such critical evidence?" The latter would have even more impact if LE doesn't generate any new evidence or come up with new information that makes a changing theory reasonable. JMO

 

[Aeronomy]

SM making that payphone call, all the other calls involving his phone, his lying about his last contact with Heather, along with what's believed to be his truck traveling to and from the vicinity of PTL, do offer some insight into why he was charged in Heather's murder. But I'm really interested in learning more about the circumstantial evidence that led to TM's murder charges. There has to be more than the texts from early November when she found out about the affair and the slanderous social media post which came about when the affair was coming to everyone's attention. Those two alone aren't enough to convict TM. They must have something more.

 

[bestill]

Maybe they bug the ankle monitor

 

[jillycat]

I think that if SM committed the murder, TM would have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. If it was the other way around and TM committed the murder, SM was willing to sit in jail because he felt as though, he brought all of this on and caused TM to do the crime. He may feel guilty of what happened because of the affair and that because of the famous phone call that night that put the wheels in motion for disaster that fateful night.

I would not be surprised to find that a discovery by SM/TM that Heather had talked to someone right after SM's call caused some serious heartburn that morning, and when LE caught SM lying about that call, it punctuated the fact that it wasn't as easy to get away with murder as they thought. These two elements alone may have led to both shifts in their activities that morning, and in agreements with one another after the investigation unfolded. I view these two as standing with or against one another depending on how it saves or condemns them. "Loyalty" in this relationship is probably pretty relative. I think even their lawyers know that an acquittal hangs on how well they can be presented as a united front and loving couple who braved the storm of infidelity, "repaired" their marriage, and had no reason to harm Heather. Short of a last minute effort on the part of one of the lawyers to make a deal which involves giving up the other M, this is likely the sort of romanticized image of 'innocence' we can expect to see put forth by the defense. And even in the last minute plea scenario, I think it would be hard at this stage of the game for one lawyer to throw the other lawyer under the bus and try to separate the M's from one another in deed. My best guess is, the defense hopes for a dismissal or an acquittal and isn't able to free one without the other. Unless one of the M's has the mother of all meltdowns, spills before trial, and can show that he/she has measurable innocence. JMO

 

[stillwatersc]

SM making that payphone call, all the other calls involving his phone, his lying about his last contact with Heather, along with what's believed to be his truck traveling to and from the vicinity of PTL, do offer some insight into why he was charged in Heather's murder. But I'm really interested in learning more about the circumstantial evidence that led to TM's murder charges. There has to be more than the texts from early November when she found out about the affair and the slanderous social media post which came about when the affair was coming to everyone's attention. Those two alone aren't enough to convict TM. They must have something more.

I have been thinking about this also. What do they have on TM? She does claim they were together all night - so if that is the case, she was involved. Maybe that is why they gave her the opportunity to talk and walk. She just had to say that he left and she doesn't know where he went unless they have more on her than we know.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Maybe they bug the ankle monitor

Right?

I've wondered why the prosecutor had LE close the road leading to their property a couple of weeks ago. 'Part of an ongoing investigation' was the last I heard.


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[jillycat]

SM making that payphone call, all the other calls involving his phone, his lying about his last contact with Heather, along with what's believed to be his truck traveling to and from the vicinity of PTL, do offer some insight into why he was charged in Heather's murder. But I'm really interested in learning more about the circumstantial evidence that led to TM's murder charges. There has to be more than the texts from early November when she found out about the affair and the slanderous social media post which came about when the affair was coming to everyone's attention. Those two alone aren't enough to convict TM. They must have something more.

I think that's a good point. Not out of belief in TM's innocence, but because nothing (that we know of) specifically points to TM that particular morning, whereas SM not only had contact with Heather, he lied about it. However, I do recall that an obstruction charge pertained to TM? This implies her guilt or her assistance in covering up the crime.

 

[bestill]

Any opinion as to why LE arrested them when they did? Something triggered the arrest.

 

[PeterThomasFan]

BBM, this is what I'm thinking may have happened. The trip from the M's home was to pick someone up.

I think Heather was reported missing late in the afternoon or early evening of December 19. So from early morning on the 18th until late afternoon on the 19th is the time they had to do something. Please correct me if my time line is wrong.

38 hours and 5 minutes!

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Any opinion as to why LE arrested them when they did? Something triggered the arrest.

IDK, but it cut down on all the 911 calls claiming harassment, trespassing, shots fired etc. moo

Do we know if LE was aware of the texts TM sent about 'packing the camper and going to Canada' prior to the arrests?




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[bestill]

IDK, but it cut down on all the 911 calls claiming harassment, trespassing, shots fired etc. moo

Do we know if LE was aware of the texts TM sent about 'packing the camper and going to Canada' prior to the arrests?




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Oh and don't forget SM's hospital visit happened about the same time, I just remembered that.

 

[jillycat]

Any opinion as to why LE arrested them when they did? Something triggered the arrest.

I think they were under a good deal of pressure for starters. And I think they may have also feared the M's would flee. And, it appears they had reached the relative end of generating new info, and had the circumstantial evidence they wanted/felt they needed. Just guessing.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Oh and don't forget SM's hospital visit happened about the same time, I just remembered that.

Imagine how stunned TM was when they showed up AND arrested her. Just the day before she posted on Facebook threatening legal action to anyone harassing her.




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[Aeronomy]

I think that's a good point. Not out of belief in TM's innocence, but because nothing (that we know of) specifically points to TM that particular morning, whereas SM not only had contact with Heather, he lied about it. However, I do recall that an obstruction charge pertained to TM? This implies her guilt or her assistance in covering up the crime.

I recall that charge, but I don't remember if it was ever revealed what it was about. Did it have to do with Heather, the obtaining money under false pretenses charges, or something else entirely? IDK? Do you know (or does anyone know) if there's ever been any details given? I ask because I don't want jump to conclusions the obstruction had to do with the murder case when there's also the fraud case looming.

 

[nosysw]

Some quotes from the timeline thread which I thought were worth reviewing (hope it's okay to post here- they are about evidence, mainly) (thanks to OkieGranny):

Feb 6 — Horry County Police Lt. Chip Squires: "Everything indicates that she drove [to Peachtree Landing. We do not have anything that indicates she did not drive there."


Feb 24 — Horry County Police chief Saundra Rhodes: "We were able to secure enough to get a search warrant for the property of the Moorer's. And after conducting that search warrant we were able to secure enough evidence to allow for probable cause for a kidnapping charge as well as the charge for murder."

Feb 24 — Horry County Chief of Police Saundra Rhodes: "We have had some additional evidence that we located during the search that led us to, giving us probable cause for the murder charge… We needed to secure a good case. That’s basically what it boils down to. From the very beginning, when we sat down with the Elvis family, we really did go through the process of explaining it to them. We told them that there were going to be highs and lows and disappointments on your part in that we’re not moving as fast as you think we should, and it has come to fruition. There are times that we did not move as fast as the Elvis family would have liked us to… Throughout the process of the investigation, when the Moorers did leave the area, we were very much aware of where they were at all times, so we were coordinating with other agencies throughout the course of the investigation… We realize that this is only one step in the process. We are continuing the investigation because our ultimate goal is to locate Heather. We’ve crossed one hurdle and we still have numerous more to go. We recognize that.”

Feb 24 — Horry County Solictor Jimmy Richardson: "“The stuff that was found at the house, if we didn’t have a lot of stuff already from two months ago or six weeks ago, it wouldn’t have been that much, but it has added to things we already expected. So we were able to find some extra stuff after what we already knew to be obstruction of justice and indecent exposure. Certainly there was a lot of strategy involved. In one way, this case is similar to others in that the more you look, the more you dig, the more you usually get. We started off with a baseline and that was us being capable of saying we can prove beyond probable cause that these two did, in fact, obstruct justice and public nudity. As we added to it from the search warrant, we found we could get the kidnapping charge. We ran that by a judge and the judge said, ‘Yes.’ So then after we did that, we looked at some more stuff and then we said, ‘Alright, we think we can get the murder charge.’ We showed that to the judge and, of course, we got an arrest warrant… Keep in mind, kidnapping is simply keeping someone from being able to leave. We have this idea that you put a bag over their head and take them out of state. Anytime you’re unable to leave, it is a kidnapping. I think it would be improper to say we found her blouse or we found her toothpaste or whatever… Any time that you’re charged with the same crime, you may very well have a different interest than your partner. They may have something that they need to talk about or talk with their attorney about that is adverse to his wife and the wife may have something that she wants to talk about that is adverse to the husband. For that reason, both of them have somebody that is able to come in and represent their particular interest… We’ve got enough to charge them with murder without a body. It’s always easier if you have a body, but we’ve tried cases several times without a body. The main thing about getting a body now is more about peace for the family.”

 

[nosysw]

I would hope that probable cause and arrest warrants are based on more than theory, and in this case, that designating PTL as the murder scene and referring to that on a warrant as "fact" is something that has more teeth than 'we think so, but this is subject to change'. At least I can't imagine a scenario where the defense, whose clients are locked up based on that probable cause, are going to tolerate an ever-shifting set of theories. All this does is point to the probability the arrest was based on a 'what we can get away with for now...we'll fill in the blanks later' foundation.

I think there's a decided difference between room in legal language such as "on or about", which is standard in police documents, and limiting your case to a location for which you appear to have little or no evidence of murder. What actually happened may align perfectly with LE's theory. But I suspect it is just that - theory. And to later change something as central to the state's case as the scene of the murder would also potentially create a need to change the timeline, the whereabouts of the parties at various times, explain alibis, and ultimately bear up under the scrutiny of the defense who will argue, "What else did they get so wrong about such critical evidence?" The latter would have even more impact if LE doesn't generate any new evidence or come up with new information that makes a changing theory reasonable. JMO

So, we already know they had some false leads to begin with (DNA identified in wrong vehicle, large cash withdrawal) but are you saying if evidence leads them to other conclusions later (and the defense has access to that evidence) they cannot change their theory? I'm not a lawyer, so, I really don't know. But, I thought that was the whole point of why it takes so long to put together a thorough and strong case. How many cases do we see where the defense postulates several theories to create reasonable doubt? But the prosecution has to stick with one? That doesn't seem logical to me, but, again, I don't work in the legal field. Just grab my bits and pieces from WS whenever I can

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I recall that charge, but I don't remember if it was ever revealed what it was about. Did it have to do with Heather, the obtaining money under false pretenses charges, or something else entirely? IDK? Do you know (or does anyone know) if there's ever been any details given? I ask because I don't want jump to conclusions the obstruction had to do with the murder case when there's also the fraud case looming.

Arrest warrants obtained by the Carolina Forest Chronicle on Sunday state the obstruction of justice charges stem from statements made on Dec. 20, the day after Heather Elvis was reported missing.

Tammy Moorer’s obstruction of justice warrant states she “prevented, impeded or interfered with an investigation to include but not limited to providing and creating false, misleading and/or inaccurate information regarding the disappearance of Heather Elvis and her and Sidney Moorer’s activities in the early morning hours of December 18th, 2013.”

http://m.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_9134b14e-9d67-11e3-a5f5-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm


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