Evident callousness.

[narlacat]

Aussie hi

I think the McChristmas's lived near the university, but I'm not sure.....
I have read your theory, not the revised one though...but, try as I might, I fail to see how it is obvious that the Ramsey's farmed their daughter out for sex so to speak.
I dont have a theory, so you are doing better than me!
All I know is one of the three people that were in that house that night is responsible, I just cant work out which one it was. Most days I lean towards Burke, but on others I'm pretty much convinced it was Patsy. IF it was either of those two, I believe in both cases it was a terrible terrible accident.
I dont discount that John was sexually abusing his daughter, but somehow cant imagine him killing her to silence her. Kids who are being abused like that dont usually spill their guts, they keep it to themselves and talk about it in therapy years later.

 

[tipper]

So you think Santa Bill was one of the 'mates'?? Is that why you think Janet Mc Christmas wrote the note??
And how do you mean 'brought in from next door'?? The Mc Christmas's didnt live next door to the Ramsey's.
BTW the bonus that John Ramsey received wasn't a recent payment, I think he had had the bonus for months, though I have been led to believe also that it had been a christmas bonus that year.

The bonus was paid in early 1996. March maybe?

 

[Zman]

I dont understand how you can say RDI doesn't work since there is no motive...firstly if JBR was killed because of an accident, motive goes out the window. The coverup however was possible MOTIVATED by several problems.
1. Burke may have been involved in the accident and his parents wanted to protect him.
2. John or Patsy may have been involved in the acident and they wanted to protect the very image Patsy esp had woven all those years b4, patsy was incredible vain and her security hinged on what others thought of her.

Yes yes..its all speculation but i woudnt dimiss RDI just because you cant see motive...many hear would have a field day with thier own ideas of RDI motive, but i honeslty think IF the ramseys killed JBR i think it was from an accident.

There is no evidence of any coverup.
But lets say for one crazy second that B did kill JBR by accident and the parents want to cover it up?
Why would anyone go to such nonsensical extremes to do so?
How in the world could J and R do those horrible things to the body of a little girl they love?
They cetainly have nothing in their history to indicate they are capable of such horrid acts.
Why do all they are accused of and not leave an obvious place of entry for an intruder?
Why would you write a rn with a built in excuse not to call the police and then call them at 7 in the morning?
Why would you open a dictionary and cirlcle the word "incest"?
Why would they do anything that may point the finger back at someone in the house?
Why would you cross out the word pickup and replace it with delivery in the RN? Why would they care what a fake RN says?
How did they feed JBR the pineapple after B kills his sister?
I could go on.

 

[aussiesheila]

Aussie hi

I think the McChristmas's lived near the university, but I'm not sure.....
I have read your theory, not the revised one though...but, try as I might, I fail to see how it is obvious that the Ramsey's farmed their daughter out for sex so to speak.
I dont have a theory, so you are doing better than me!
All I know is one of the three people that were in that house that night is responsible, I just cant work out which one it was. Most days I lean towards Burke, but on others I'm pretty much convinced it was Patsy. IF it was either of those two, I believe in both cases it was a terrible terrible accident.
I dont discount that John was sexually abusing his daughter, but somehow cant imagine him killing her to silence her. Kids who are being abused like that dont usually spill their guts, they keep it to themselves and talk about it in therapy years later.

OK Narlacat I'm sorry I must not be explaining myself clearly.

Not for one moment am I suggesting that the Ramsey's farmed their daughter out for sex so to speak. Firstly, I believe that John was totally oblivious to what was going on. He seems not even to have known that JonBenet wet the bed alot. I think he was pretty much absorbed in his work at Access Whatever and left the child work and house work to Patsy.

What I am saying, and I know it is a difficult idea to accept, is that Patsy was aware that JonBenet was being sexually abused by people known to her but did nothing to stop it from happening. I know it is a hard ask to expect people to believe this and I don't expect people will. But I have known this kind of thing to happen and I believe it happened in this case.

I cannot agree with you that either Burke or John might have been abusing JonBenet as nothing has ever come to light that suggests that either of them is a sexual deviant which they would have had to be to do what was done to JonBenet. The same goes for Patsy - if she was capable of inflicting such horrendously violent wounds on her daughter in a rage, I think she would have exhibited signs of uncontrolled violence at other times under stress.

I know the RDI's will claim that some of these indicators have been observed and that the wealthy and powerful Ramseys have managed to suppress all talk to the contrary. But I think that these things leak out somehow if, in fact, they exist. Look at the British royal family - all the wealth and power in the world hasn't stopped all manner of dirt coming out about them.

 

[Shelayne]

There is no evidence of any coverup.
But lets say for one crazy second that B did kill JBR by accident and the parents want to cover it up?
Why would anyone go to such nonsensical extremes to do so?
How in the world could J and R do those horrible things to the body of a little girl they love?
They cetainly have nothing in their history to indicate they are capable of such horrid acts.
Why do all they are accused of and not leave an obvious place of entry for an intruder?
Why would you write a rn with a built in excuse not to call the police and then call them at 7 in the morning?
Why would you open a dictionary and cirlcle the word "incest"?
Why would they do anything that may point the finger back at someone in the house?
Why would you cross out the word pickup and replace it with delivery in the RN? Why would they care what a fake RN says?
How did they feed JBR the pineapple after B kills his sister?
I could go on.

I agree 100%. The accidental death and cover-up never washed with me---nor did the Patsy bashed her skull because JonBenet wet the bed again scenario. After hearing details about BTK, there are some seriously sick people out there. And who knows if the perp hadn't been in the house before that night, checking everything out, learning all sorts of things. It sounds like that's what Rader did. Why is it so hard to think that there is another psychopath out there with the same kinds of predilections? Why must it be someone who LIVES in the house? Just some questions.

 

[Tricia]

The RN author was very callous toward JBR. In his reference to JBR, he threatened to 'immediately execute', to 'behead' , and to 'deny remains for a proper burial.'

The idea of beheading a child is so callous that it could only have originated with someone who is emotionally deadened by hatred.

Its easily said that strangling, headbashing, and placing JBR in the corner of the basement floor was callous treatment.

Callousness that could be caused by a general lack of respect. The RN author stated he had a lack of respect for US and for fat cats.

A coverup of an accident doesn't account for the callous disregard and lack of respect that is evident on the part of the perp toward JBR.

This is not evidence of callousness IMO. This is evidence of someone trying to write like a "foreign faction" that is ruthless.

Patsy wrote the note. It's all theatrics. A very unsophisticated criminal mind.

 

[narlacat]

OK Narlacat I'm sorry I must not be explaining myself clearly.

Not for one moment am I suggesting that the Ramsey's farmed their daughter out for sex so to speak. Firstly, I believe that John was totally oblivious to what was going on. He seems not even to have known that JonBenet wet the bed alot. I think he was pretty much absorbed in his work at Access Whatever and left the child work and house work to Patsy.

What I am saying, and I know it is a difficult idea to accept, is that Patsy was aware that JonBenet was being sexually abused by people known to her but did nothing to stop it from happening. I know it is a hard ask to expect people to believe this and I don't expect people will. But I have known this kind of thing to happen and I believe it happened in this case.

I cannot agree with you that either Burke or John might have been abusing JonBenet as nothing has ever come to light that suggests that either of them is a sexual deviant which they would have had to be to do what was done to JonBenet. The same goes for Patsy - if she was capable of inflicting such horrendously violent wounds on her daughter in a rage, I think she would have exhibited signs of uncontrolled violence at other times under stress.

I know the RDI's will claim that some of these indicators have been observed and that the wealthy and powerful Ramseys have managed to suppress all talk to the contrary. But I think that these things leak out somehow if, in fact, they exist. Look at the British royal family - all the wealth and power in the world hasn't stopped all manner of dirt coming out about them.

Aussie, I was getting your theory mixed up with someone else's on here. I thought it was you that used the term' farmed out for sex'. Sorry about that.
Also I didnt say Burke was abusing JonBenet. I said I dont discount the theory that John was.

 

[aussiesheila]

That's OK Narlacat, it does get very confusing I agree.
It seems you think it has to have been John or Patsy or maybe Burke and that it was an accident.
I can't agree with you I'm sorry.
First of all the killing blow was terribly violent. I think the person who did it would have had to be extremely sadistic and I don't think there has ever been any indication that any of the Ramseys fall into that category. I agree with BlueCrab that it is unlikely the Maglite was the murder weapon, I don't think an ordinary person could generate enough force with it to make the huge wound in her skull. I think it has to have been the baseball bat. I just can't imagine a situation in which any Ramsey would pick up a baseball bat in the middle of the night and swing it at her head.
Then if it was a Ramsey they would have had to have staged the whole coverup. Assuming Burke was responsible for the rope stuff,why didn't they remove all that before they put her body in the cellar? If the rope stuff was part of the stageing, why on earth did they need to do such a thing? Wouldn't a straight kidnapping be enough? Why the need to stage a pre-kidnapping torture event? And why if they were staging a kidnappping did they call the police at 6 am when her body was still in the house? Wouldn't it have been better to cancel the trip to Charlevoix, not call the police at all that day, take the body to the mountains the next night, THEN call the police?
Why do you feel so sure it has to have been a Ramsey?

 

[Becba]

Never heard of a polite murderer.

 

[Zman]

This is not evidence of callousness IMO. This is evidence of someone trying to write like a "foreign faction" that is ruthless.

Patsy wrote the note. It's all theatrics. A very unsophisticated criminal mind.

P did not write the note. The R's did not cove up. B or JAR did not kill their sister on purpose or by accident.
Free your mind.

 

[narlacat]

That's OK Narlacat, it does get very confusing I agree.
It seems you think it has to have been John or Patsy or maybe Burke and that it was an accident.
I can't agree with you I'm sorry.
First of all the killing blow was terribly violent. I think the person who did it would have had to be extremely sadistic and I don't think there has ever been any indication that any of the Ramseys fall into that category. I agree with BlueCrab that it is unlikely the Maglite was the murder weapon, I don't think an ordinary person could generate enough force with it to make the huge wound in her skull. I think it has to have been the baseball bat. I just can't imagine a situation in which any Ramsey would pick up a baseball bat in the middle of the night and swing it at her head.
Then if it was a Ramsey they would have had to have staged the whole coverup. Assuming Burke was responsible for the rope stuff,why didn't they remove all that before they put her body in the cellar? If the rope stuff was part of the stageing, why on earth did they need to do such a thing? Wouldn't a straight kidnapping be enough? Why the need to stage a pre-kidnapping torture event? And why if they were staging a kidnappping did they call the police at 6 am when her body was still in the house? Wouldn't it have been better to cancel the trip to Charlevoix, not call the police at all that day, take the body to the mountains the next night, THEN call the police?
Why do you feel so sure it has to have been a Ramsey?

Hi Aussie
I guess I figure it was one of the Ramsey's because of John and Patsy's actions. Their lying, their refusal to help LE and their suspicious behaviour on the morning of the 26th makes me think one of them is responsible for JonBenet's death.
I really dont think they would cover for anyone but themselves and their family, and covering up is what they have done.
I'm pretty sus on JAR too, regardless of his iron clad alibi....

 

[capps]

I'm pretty sus on JAR too, regardless of his iron clad alibi....


If people won't believe an iron clad alibi ... then what else would it take?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

P did not write the note. The R's did not cove up. B or JAR did not kill their sister on purpose or by accident.
Free your mind.

Nobody in Boulder did it either. No local is going to leave 3 pages of handwriting for analysis. The perp wasn't worried about the handwriting because the perp's out of the country "that [JR's business] serves".

 

[aussiesheila]

Hi Aussie
I guess I figure it was one of the Ramsey's because of John and Patsy's actions. Their lying, their refusal to help LE and their suspicious behaviour on the morning of the 26th makes me think one of them is responsible for JonBenet's death.
I really dont think they would cover for anyone but themselves and their family, and covering up is what they have done.
I'm pretty sus on JAR too, regardless of his iron clad alibi....

Narlacat,

I agree that Patsy lied, mostly indirectly by oohing and aahing, forgetting, avoiding the question, withholding information, using up interview time with irrelevant information. However I do not agree that John ever lied and I do not believe anyone can point to an instance where John can be proven to have lied, except possibly about Burke being awake at the time of the 911 phone call.

I agree with anyone who says that Patsy's behaviour was suspicious on the morning of the 26th. I think that although she wasn't involved in the killing, she knew before she came downstairs that JonBenet was dead and that she was supposed to 'find' the ransom note. I do not however, think that any of John's behaviour that day was suspicious and it puzzles me that a lot of people do.

While I do not believe John was covering up at all, I think most definitely that Patsy was. And I do think she would cover up for people outside of her family if she had good enough reason. And I think one of her reasons was that she knew some of the people who were present at the murder of JonBenet and while she didn't expect them to kill JonBenet, she was responsible for allowing JonBenet to be with them that night. The other reason was that while she didn't like to admit it to herself, she knew deep down in her heart that JonBenet was being sexually abused and had been probably ever since she came to live in Boulder.

As far as not co-operating with LE, I do not think this is true at all. I believe this was mis-information disseminated by BPD who wished to put pressure on the Ramseys to get a confession and by others who wished to discredit them to make them look guilty. And I think you can tell from my posts who I think that was.

If you read what Mike Bynam, who was the Ramseys first lawyer, stated on ABC PRIMETIME LIVE, SEPTEMBER 10, 1997 in an interview with DIANE SAWYER it gives a totally different take on their behaviour.

Diane Sawyer in her introduction stated "When Bynum, who had lost an infant grandchild of his own, learned that JonBenet had been murdered, he rushed to a friend's house, where the Ramseys and their nine-year-old son Burke had gone to stay." (This was on the 27th, not on the 26th as has been previously posted here)

Then during the interview:

DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Why did they get a lawyer?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I went, as their friend, to help. And I felt that they should have legal advice -- nothing more, nothing less.

DIANE SAWYER: So you're the reason they got a lawyer?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I'm the one.

DIANE SAWYER: It did not occur to them first?

MICHAEL BYNUM: They certainly never made any mention of it to me.
.
.
MICHAEL BYNUM: ... I told John there were some legal issues that I thought needed to be taken care of. And John just looked at me and said, "Do whatever you think needs to be done," and he and Burke -- he went into a room to talk with Burke and so I did.

DIANE SAWYER: What made you think there were legal issues?

MICHAEL BYNUM: I was a prosecutor. I know how this works. I know where the police attention's going to go, right from the get go.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) And he says that's exactly what happened. By Saturday, two days after the murder that the police were openly hostile. An assistant DA gave him some news.

MICHAEL BYNUM: He said the police are refusing to release JonBenet's body for burial unless John and Patsy give them interviews. I have never heard of anything like that. I said to the DA, "I don't know whether or not this is illegal, but I'm sure it's immoral and unethical." I just was not willing to participate and facilitate or do anything other than to say "no." Not only no, but hell, no, you're not getting an interview. And I did say that.

DIANE SAWYER: Did they authorize you to say that?

MICHAEL BYNUM: John and Patsy? No. Absolutely not. They weren't in the room. They didn't know what was going on. And I wasn't going to bring them in on it. I did it.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) In the end, the body was released. The funeral was in Atlanta. Bynum insists the Ramseys still didn't know what he had told police when they suddenly accepted an invitation to go on CNN.
.
.
DIANE SAWYER: (on camera) Was it a mistake?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Yes and no. At this point in time, with everything that's happened to them, it's pretty difficult for them to do anything that isn't going to be criticized. If they do something, it's criticized that they did. If they don't, it's criticized that they don't.

DIANE SAWYER: But of all the things that solidified suspicions against the Ramseys, probably the biggest was that four-month delay in granting police a formal interview. Bynum says the Ramseys wanted to talk, but their attorneys insisted that a member of the DA's office be present. Why? He says because police were so hostile and the DA makes the final decision whether the prosecute. He insists that the big holdup was that police waited so long to let the DA's office in.

MICHAEL BYNUM: The primary issue preventing an interview for all that time, despite everything people were told in the media, was the issue of the presence of the DA in there.

DIANE SAWYER: What about this assumption on people's part that if it had been them and their child and they were innocent, they would have said, "I don't care what you say, attorneys, I am going down -- I'm going to -- I'm not going to just give an interview. I'm going to camp out down there to make sure they know everything I know, and that they're on the trail of who did this. Nothing is going to stop me."

MICHAEL BYNUM: I think there's nothing wrong with that approach and that idea. But I want to tell you, for anyone in the circumstance that John and Patsy Ramsey were in, you go ahead and do that and pick up the pieces later because you're going to be shredded. And I know that there are good police. I know there are good police in Boulder, Colorado, but I've also seen it from the prosecution side. I've seen it from the defense side if a focus occurs what that means. And it means they're coming, and you better get ready.

DIANE SAWYER: Innocent or not?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Absolutely. Absolutely.

DIANE SAWYER: Polygraphs -- have they taken a lie detector?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Not to my knowledge.

DIANE SAWYER: Should they? Will they?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Not if I ever have anything to say about it.

DIANE SAWYER: Why?

MICHAEL BYNUM: Oh, that's -- that's ouija board science, number one. And I will also tell you, to my knowledge, that request has not been made of John and Patsy.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>I do not however, think that any of John's behaviour that day was suspicious and it puzzles me that a lot of people do.<<

Well, I thought John's behaviour that morning was pretty much as suspect as Patsy's.
What about the way he carried JonBenet up the stairs and then asking Arndt if she was dead when it was so apparent that she was....I dont care what anyone says, there's no way John Ramsey did not know she was dead,even the dumbest of people know if something is cold and rigid,its dead.
What about him ringing his pilot within 40 minutes of finding her....to hightail it out of there.....

Patsy and John's behaviour as a couple is stranger still....for a happily married couple who had just lost their precious daughter, they most of the time, werent even in the same room.
Then they let Burke leave with friends, who as it turns out, werent really friends( my point being, you wouldn't have let your child go with even your best friend that morning) just after they have lost one child and a madman is still on the loose.
Then if thats not strange enough, they walk out and leave their precious little girl all alone, lying like a discarded toy next to the christmas tree. She lay there for hours before Dr Meyer came in the early evening. Again, I dont care what anyone says, there's no way,no how, that I would/could have left my child in that state in that house by herself. The authorities would have had to pick me up and carry me out because I wouldnt be leaving.
That poor little girl even made the trip to the morgue by herself.

 

[tipper]

QUOTE>>I do not however, think that any of John's behaviour that day was suspicious and it puzzles me that a lot of people do.<<

Well, I thought John's behaviour that morning was pretty much as suspect as Patsy's.
What about the way he carried JonBenet up the stairs and then asking Arndt if she was dead when it was so apparent that she was....I dont care what anyone says, there's no way John Ramsey did not know she was dead,even the dumbest of people know if something is cold and rigid,its dead.
What about him ringing his pilot within 40 minutes of finding her....to hightail it out of there.....

Patsy and John's behaviour as a couple is stranger still....for a happily married couple who had just lost their precious daughter, they most of the time, werent even in the same room.
Then they let Burke leave with friends, who as it turns out, werent really friends( my point being, you wouldn't have let your child go with even your best friend that morning) just after they have lost one child and a madman is still on the loose.
Then if thats not strange enough, they walk out and leave their precious little girl all alone, lying like a discarded toy next to the christmas tree. She lay there for hours before Dr Meyer came in the early evening. Again, I dont care what anyone says, there's no way,no how, that I would/could have left my child in that state in that house by herself. The authorities would have had to pick me up and carry me out because I wouldnt be leaving.
That poor little girl even made the trip to the morgue by herself.

I think he carried her up and asked if she was dead because he was in shock.

He explains why he called the pilot in his interviews. Again I don't think he was acting calmly and rationally because he was in shock.

Neither Jedamus nor Morlock though the Ramseys behavior as a couple was suspicious.

Would Burke have been better off underfoot with his mother in hysterics and his father focused on getting the ransom and waiting for the phone call? The police didn't think it was a bad idea for him to go to the Whites.

The police told them they had to leave. Again, I think they were in shock and out-of-it. They didn't want to go to a hotel so they went to a friend's house.

Did Martha Moxley's mother ride with her to the morgue? Did she go out and sit with her until the coroner was finished? No. She left her outside under a tree while she sat inside. Was that strange or uncaring behavior? No.

Why should the Ramseys be held to a different standard than Dorthy Moxley?

 

[narlacat]

I think he carried her up and asked if she was dead because he was in shock.

He explains why he called the pilot in his interviews. Again I don't think he was acting calmly and rationally because he was in shock.

Neither Jedamus nor Morlock though the Ramseys behavior as a couple was suspicious.

Would Burke have been better off underfoot with his mother in hysterics and his father focused on getting the ransom and waiting for the phone call? The police didn't think it was a bad idea for him to go to the Whites.

The police told them they had to leave. Again, I think they were in shock and out-of-it. They didn't want to go to a hotel so they went to a friend's house.

Did Martha Moxley's mother ride with her to the morgue? Did she go out and sit with her until the coroner was finished? No. She left her outside under a tree while she sat inside. Was that strange or uncaring behavior? No.

Why should the Ramseys be held to a different standard than Dorthy Moxley?

It was the way he carried her. Also, he found her...I know Arndt suggested he look around, but that was a big house..why start at the basement? Why did he never look outside?

Well he was calm and rational enough to arrange leaving the state and also calm and rational enough to orgainze lawyers....and for the entire family. To me that doesnt sound like he was too much in shock...

Burke would have been better off staying where he was safe, in his room away from the hysterics but under the eye of LE in case he was also at risk from a madman from a foreign faction who obviously has a huge dislike to John Ramsey and was taking it out on his family...
I dont see how you think John Ramsey was focused on the ransom, the specified time came and went and he didnt even mention it....
Burke was whisked away before the police could say jack rabbit, it wasn't the cops idea he leave it was the Ramsey's.

I have heard nothing about Patsy screaming and crying and having to be dragged away from JonBenet when asked to leave the house and ultimately her 'baby', yet I have heard about the hysterics and the throwing of herself on JonBenet's body when she was found.

I 'm not suggesting for Patsy to have sat through the autopsy or anything like that, but how could she leave her child by herself that day? The only thing I can come up with from their actions is....they felt guilty, they couldn't bear to be near her. They were distancing themselves.

I dont know much about the Moxley case so I cannot comment on your last question.

 

[Tricia]

Did Martha Moxley's mother ride with her to the morgue? Did she go out and sit with her until the coroner was finished? No. She left her outside under a tree while she sat inside. Was that strange or uncaring behavior? No.

Why should the Ramseys be held to a different standard than Dorthy Moxley?

Martha Moxley was not found dead in her basement with a fake ransome note written with paper and pen from their own house.

Martha Moxley's mother cooperated fully with police.

Martha Moxley's mother continued to stop at nothing to find her killer.

Martha Moxley's whole family was victimized by the Skakels yet, they cooperated fully with the police, opened their home to the investigation, made themselves available to police anytime, anyplace, and, Martha Moxley's family cooperated with Mark Fuhrman when he wrote his book.

To compare Martha Moxley's mother and father's behavior to John and Patsy's behavior is like comparing the Osmond Family to the Manson Family.

 

[luvbeaches]

The RN author was very callous toward JBR. In his reference to JBR, he threatened to 'immediately execute', to 'behead' , and to 'deny remains for a proper burial.'

The idea of beheading a child is so callous that it could only have originated with someone who is emotionally deadened by hatred.

Its easily said that strangling, headbashing, and placing JBR in the corner of the basement floor was callous treatment.

Callousness that could be caused by a general lack of respect. The RN author stated he had a lack of respect for US and for fat cats.

A coverup of an accident doesn't account for the callous disregard and lack of respect that is evident on the part of the perp toward JBR.

Yes, and it's interesting that the R's seemed to ignore the ransom note. The note said not to talk to a stray dog, or their daughter would be beheaded...so the first thing they do is invite their buddies over to the house! Jeez, that's just what I'd do...NOT.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes, and it's interesting that the R's seemed to ignore the ransom note. The note said not to talk to a stray dog, or their daughter would be beheaded...so the first thing they do is invite their buddies over to the house! Jeez, that's just what I'd do...NOT.

You'd have to ask the R's how far they got thru the RN before they dialed 911.

Do you know if the R's dialed 911 before they reached the 'beheaded' remark?

Did you or the intruder-perp RN author expect someone to actually tread thru 3 pages of words to absorb the entire content completely, and then make a rational decision on what to do next?