Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[otto]

I'm wondering where the facilities are located that have offered. If out of the area or even out of state, would the close-knit family relocate?

It sounds like bluffing to me. I'm sure that organizations have offered to care for the child on the condition that she is curable (per the parent's claim), but if she is brain dead, as doctors say, then I rather doubt that any organization will foot the bill to keep someone alive while other organs fail and death occurs due to a secondary cause. Not even the brother of the Dutch King could be kept alive after brain death ... and not for lack of trying and unlimited funding.

 

[SophieRose]

I would be interested in knowing what caused Jahi to bleed out and why she wasn't rushed back to the OR. Would also be interested in what facts were given to her mother or whoever her guardian is. A major reason for lawsuits related to medicine is patients/families want to know what happened and all to often everything is kept hush hush.

The hospital was to provide the family/attorney all of her medical records by Monday Dec 23. Maybe though it's just those pertaining to the brain death, I don't know. It says all here.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9372131

Despite the ruling, the family says it forced the hospital to provide all of Jahi's medical records and it raised the issue of patient and family rights.

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.elsevier.pt/en/revistas/...iotherapy-in-critically-ill-patients-90037904

authored by:
Ambrosino, N.; Janah, N.; Vagheggini, G.

There are several articles which give detailed information regarding the consequences of long term mechanical ventilation.
Among these consequences appear the following symptoms:
Severe muscle weakness, poor quality of life, neuropathy, loss of lean body mass, impaired anabolism, increased presence of infections, skin wounds, and incontinence. Respiratory complications may include secretion retention and pnuemonia.

 

[otto]

I would be interested in knowing what caused Jahi to bleed out and why she wasn't rushed back to the OR. Would also be interested in what facts were given to her mother or whoever her guardian is. A major reason for lawsuits related to medicine is patients/families want to know what happened and all to often everything is kept hush hush.

Every surgery carries with it a risk. I can't count the number of times I signed papers for my son because he was undergoing brain surgery or tests (he's fine, by the way). Everything requires a signature declaring that it is understood that there is a small risk of death associated with every surgery and medical procedure. The parents would have signed papers declaring that they understood the risks and signed on their daughter's behalf. No one wants to be that small percent where death was the risk.

And a tonsillectomy? Who could believe that such a routine procedure would result in death, but every procedure has a risk of death associated with it. People have plastic surgery and die, but most of the time it's perfectly safe.

Tonsils used to be routinely removed (1960s) because it was hoped that removal would prevent the common cold. It didn't, so tonsils were left alone in the next generation ... although some neurotic parents insist that they are better off without their tonsils and they want the same operation for their children (perhaps they breath loud or snore).

 

[otto]

The hospital was to provide the family/attorney all of her medical records by Monday Dec 23.

"... the family says it forced the hospital to provide all of Jahi's medical records and it raised the issue of patient and family rights. "

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9372131

What does that mean? Is the family withholding medical records now that the question of prior health has been raised?

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Independent-brain-exam-ordered-for-Jahi-McMath-5088771.php

According to this article
"The girl was declared brain-dead three days after she had surgery to deal with sleep apnea.

The hospital said Jahi's tonsils and adenoids were removed, along with excess tissue from her throat and nose. The girl's family said that she seemed fine coming out of surgery but that blood started coming out of her nose and mouth, and she went into cardiac arrest. Jahi has been on a ventilator since."

I believe this was posted up-thread already.

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_24765962/oakland-family-brain-dead-girl-seeks-injunction-keep

This article adds another detail:"Jahi had complex tonsil surgery to help her with sleep apnea, weight gain and other health problems. She began bleeding from her nose and mouth and experienced cardiac arrest later that night, hospital officials and family have said."

My apologies if this has already been posted.

 

[SwampMama]

<snipped>

Not sure, but I think the reason that there isn't religious discussion on the forum is because it's not really allowed. Maybe check the TOS to be on the safe side.

If they want to remove it, that's completely fine. I absolutely trust their judgment. I don't think we were debating religion, using religion to defend out views or in anyway causing a controversy about it so I didn't consider it to be objectionable.

I simply presented it as informational because different religions have different medical beliefs and people had asked about it. It was pointed out that in two state that some Jewish people may be exempt from the UDDA because their belief is that the heartbeat is the thing that determines whether one is alive or not (or that is how I interpreted it).

Also upthread, we discussed Dr Byrne who was a doctor who did not believe in brain death, claimed that such patients have a chance of recovering and is a very staunch Catholic. The Catholic part of my post was simply to show that his extreme beliefs are not in fact backed up by the church. A few of us were unsure of the Catholic view but did not think that Dr Byrne's views were completely in accordance with the Vatican ( or whoever runs that church).

In all, throughout this thread, you can see thoughtful and considerate exchanges of information, experience and expressions on how we viewed the situation. The information on religions was simply that- information. It was posted so that we can better understand all of the nuances that surround this complex topic of brain death and how it may affect people based upon different criteria such as state laws, federal law, how religion may be a factor and even pregnancy in a brain dead person.

So let me add this : Any post I made referring to religion was simply informational. It was not an attempt to force any religious beliefs on anyone, to promote my own beliefs. It was not meant to offend or exclude anyone.

My absolute apologies if anyone was offended or feels that the information should be deleted for violating TOS.

I will notify a mod and ask them to review my post to ensure that it passes their assessment of whether it is useful or against TOS. Thanks

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...jahi-mcmath-tonsillectomy-brain-dead.cnn.html

In this segment of Piers Morgan's show, Jahi's mother says her daughter had no previous health problems, and all the problems started in the ICU. The uncle keeps referring to faith, that the family will not consider death. They believe prayers will lead to her healing completely. So, so sad.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...am-jahi-brain-dead-tonsilitis-update.cnn.html

Apparently the tissue removed was sinus tissue--maybe related to the sleep apnea. The mother compares her daughter to being on death row in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...-sees-improvement-in-brain-dead-teen.cnn.html

The mother expresses her frustration that the hospital has not explained the bleeding. Mother sees signs of improvement--the respirator seems to indicate that her daughter is taking her own breaths. I'm not sure from her description actually shows improvement.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...nts-to-keep-life-support-elam-newday.cnn.html
Mother feels daughter trapped inside her body. CT shows 2/3 of Jahi's brain was swollen.

 

[otto]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Independent-brain-exam-ordered-for-Jahi-McMath-5088771.php

According to this article
"The girl was declared brain-dead three days after she had surgery to deal with sleep apnea.

The hospital said Jahi's tonsils and adenoids were removed, along with excess tissue from her throat and nose. The girl's family said that she seemed fine coming out of surgery but that blood started coming out of her nose and mouth, and she went into cardiac arrest. Jahi has been on a ventilator since."

I believe this was posted up-thread already.

Sleep apnea? Who diagnosed a 13 year old girl with sleep apnea and why wasn't it assumed that she might outgrow the problem? Teenagers grow in bizarre spurts and growths that could make someone snore for a bit. Was she overweight and, if so, how much for her height and age? This has to be more than sleep apnea and tonsils.

Adnoids? Obviously the child wasn't complaining because she was asleep during the sleep apnea. Was she a tired teeanager? Was she tested for sleep apnea? Were alternatives explored? Sleep apnea can't be diagnosed because a child is tired. Growth spurts alone will make a child tired and maybe even snore. I have to wonder how this was diagnosed in a 13 year old child and why surgery was the only option. That doesn't seem entirely rational.

Did she have ears/nose/throat fibroids? If it was fibroids, would the outcome have been better if the surgery had been done in two stages ... on different dates?

 

[nomoresorrow]

What does that mean? Is the family withholding medical records now that the question of prior health has been raised?

The hospital was the one "withholding" - not surprisingly. Following my own Mother's "adverse event" and subsequent death in 2005, following a cardiac catheterization procedure, the hospital did not respond to my family's request for her records until the request was resubmitted by an attorney and - adding insult to injury - charging us over $300.00 in copying/misc fees for her hospital records. I've restrained myself from posting in this thread, up until now, because I know first-hand the lengths a hospital will go to to cover their a$$ when an 'adverse event" such as this occurs... JMO ~

 

[otto]

The hospital was the one "withholding" - not surprisingly. Following my own Mother's "adverse event" and subsequent death in 2005, following a cardiac catheterization procedure, the hospital did not respond to my family's request for her records until the request was resubmitted by an attorney and - adding insult to injury - charging us over $300.00 in copying/misc fees for her hospital records. I've restrained myself from posting in this thread, up until now, because I know first-hand the lengths a hospital will go to to cover their a$$ when an 'adverse event" such as this occurs... JMO ~

It sounds like there's a possibility that the removal of adenoids and tonsils should not have been done at the same time, especially if the child was overweight ... I'm guessing at what may have gone wrong. If her throat was cleared at the same time, it sounds like fibroids, which can also form in the ear canal, leading the difficulties in hearing.

Still, anyone with those problems knows that there's a risk with the surgery. The breathing passage is obviously obstructed if adenoids and tonsils are being removed and the throat is scraped. It sounds like it was touch and go from the beginning.

Even if the hospital were to admit that the surgeries could have been better done separately, it sounds like there were serious health issues and that there was never any guarantee that everything would go well. It seems to me that the parents are having difficulties accepting their daughter's death. Are they a good sound family or is there a possibility that there's an eye on a lawsuit? Sorry for asking, but it's looking to me like that may be an angle.

 

[wendiesan]

Thanks to SwampMama for her wide-ranging research and sensitively written commentary about the issues cropping up in relation to this particular case.

It doesn't seem to me that the lack of discussion re religious beliefs on this thread is due to any restriction on discussion of religion, but rather on that the focus of this thread is the unfolding case of Jahi's surgery and post-surgical care vs. the interests of her family in that care which has been shaped, in part, by their religious beliefs.

IMO, there are a range of beliefs regarding the point at which a soul enters a body and at which point the soul leaves the body behind.

I don't think SM's posts are on topic since Jahi's family has brought up in mainstream media interviews the way their faith has impacted the way in which they are dealing with this crisis. This particular WS thread is not, IMO, a thread dealing with a philosophical debate over the existence or non-existence of a soul, as valuable and interesting as such a debate would be. It is not about a comparative analysis of the validity of competing philosophies. It is about a case in which a family is fighting for time to heal a teen by means of prayers, based on their particular faith. It is a case in which the courts are trying to balance the needs of that family with the secular needs of the hospital, and the science based results of the tests run by several physicians trying to determine whether or not this girl is dead.

Again, JMO, but I think people on this thread are examining the family's faith-based arguments and, IMO, SM's and other's comments regarding religious stands on this issue are providing a context that enables a lay-person, such as myself, with a broader understanding of the issue. For a deeper understanding, I would turn to a thread examining just the concepts of a soul within a particular religion.

OOps. Sorry. Instead, it should have read "I think SM's posts are on topic". They aren't off topic. Sorry FM. I think I'm too tired now to edit my own writing so will pack it in.

 

[otto]

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...jahi-mcmath-tonsillectomy-brain-dead.cnn.html

In this segment of Piers Morgan's show, Jahi's mother says her daughter had no previous health problems, and all the problems started in the ICU. The uncle keeps referring to faith, that the family will not consider death. They believe prayers will lead to her healing completely. So, so sad.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...am-jahi-brain-dead-tonsilitis-update.cnn.html

Apparently the tissue removed was sinus tissue--maybe related to the sleep apnea. The mother compares her daughter to being on death row in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...-sees-improvement-in-brain-dead-teen.cnn.html

The mother expresses her frustration that the hospital has not explained the bleeding. Mother sees signs of improvement--the respirator seems to indicate that her daughter is taking her own breaths. I'm not sure from her description actually shows improvement.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...nts-to-keep-life-support-elam-newday.cnn.html
Mother feels daughter trapped inside her body. CT shows 2/3 of Jahi's brain was swollen.

If mom thinks her daughter is breathing without a ventilator, why isn't she the first to request that it be removed?

 

[otto]

Thanks to SwampMama for her wide-ranging research and sensitively written commentary about the issues cropping up in relation to this particular case.

It doesn't seem to me that the lack of discussion re religious beliefs on this thread is due to any restriction on discussion of religion, but rather on that the focus of this thread is the unfolding case of Jahi's surgery and post-surgical care vs. the interests of her family in that care which has been shaped, in part, by their religious beliefs.

IMO, there are a range of beliefs regarding the point at which a soul enters a body and at which point the soul leaves the body behind.

I don't think SM's posts are on topic since Jahi's family has brought up in mainstream media interviews the way their faith has impacted the way in which they are dealing with this crisis. This particular WS thread is not, IMO, a thread dealing with a philosophical debate over the existence or non-existence of a soul, as valuable and interesting as such a debate would be. It is not about a comparative analysis of the validity of competing philosophies. It is about a case in which a family is fighting for time to heal a teen by means of prayers, based on their particular faith. It is a case in which the courts are trying to balance the needs of that family with the secular needs of the hospital, and the science based results of the tests run by several physicians trying to determine whether or not this girl is dead.

Again, JMO, but I think people on this thread are examining the family's faith-based arguments and, IMO, SM's and other's comments regarding religious stands on this issue are providing a context that enables a lay-person, such as myself, with a broader understanding of the issue. For a deeper understanding, I would turn to a thread examining just the concepts of a soul within a particular religion.

You're right. Nothing said in the Terms of Service rules about not discussing religion except:

"Threats, Racism & Sexism:
Threads or posts promoting or expressing intolerant views towards groups based on their characteristics (such as race, religion, sexual preference, etc.) will not be tolerated."

Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


That seems slightly different than when I've read the Terms of Service in the past, but I could be mistaken.

 

[wendiesan]

Re" 354

I think it's possible that medical staff have told them, or, at any rate, that the family has interpreted the information given to them, that Jahi is healing because she is on the ventilator. Maybe they believe that if she is on the ventilator longer, she will be healed enough to "wake up" and go home, a normal, happy young woman.

I got the impression that the family do not trust the medical staff because there were problems with the surgery. They felt they were told it was very low risk, and the opposite has proven to be the case. The family also believes that a doctor was called too late to help Jahi when she began bleeding in ICU, so they may think that the hospital is trying to have Jahi removed from the ventilator in order to cover up the mistakes the family may believe that medical staff made either during the surgery, or during the follow-up care, or both.

In that case, if taking Jahi off the ventilator covers an act of incompetence, then they would be against taking her off the machine. Unfortunately, if what I've been reading is correct, the opposite may be true. The healing that is apparently happening will actually cover up the reasons for this tragic situation.

 

[otto]

I think it's possible that medical staff have told them, or, at any rate, that the family has interpreted the information given to them, that Jahi is healing because she is on the ventilator. Maybe they believe that if she is on the ventilator longer, she will be healed enough to "wake up" and go home, a normal, happy young woman.

I got the impression that the family do not trust the medical staff because there were problems with the surgery. They felt they were told it was very low risk, and the opposite has proven to be the case. The family also believes that a doctor was called too late to help Jahi when she began bleeding in ICU, so they may think that the hospital is trying to have Jahi removed from the ventilator in order to cover up the mistakes the family may believe that medical staff made either during the surger, or during the follow-up care, or both.

In that case, if taking Jahi off the ventilator covers an act of incompetence, then they would be against taking her off the machine. Unfortunately, if what I've been reading is correct, the opposite may be true. The healing that is apparently happening will actually cover up the reasons for this tragic situation.

Plastic surgery is low risk, as is a tonsillectomy, but neither of these surgeries would be performed without a signature acknowledging that both, in rare cases, can result in death.

Are they looking to blame someone for their daughter's death? This doctor was late, that one did it wrong ... what is the bottom line here? What do the parents do for a living?

It seems to me that a ventilator is a last resort, not a tactic to cover up a surgical error. If the child had surgery, she was recovering, and suddenly things went drastically wrong, did one person make a mistake, did everyone make a mistake, and how is the decision to have the surgery not a mistake? Surgery is very serious. Was the surgery necessary or optional ... that will be on the chart? Did the family request the surgery, or did a surgeon determine that this was necessary life saving surgery that, in this case, shortened life rather than extended life?

 

[SwampMama]

Wendie and Otto,

I have alerted a mod to my posts so they will be reviewed. I am awaiting them to contact me. Please understand that one poster specifically asked about the Catholic beliefs and another poster asked about the soul. My responses were simply that, a response with some links and info.

Perhaps, as a former teacher, I have a tendency to want to provide information that people have asked to know more about.

I have become very interested in Jahi's case and simply wish to understand all of the factors that can affect such a case because the laws of it are quite enlightening indeed. There is so much I didn't really know or understand about it.

Thank you both for pointing out any objections that you have. It is not my intent to ever post anything offensive or against TOS. I respect the MODs and my fellow WSers too much for that. So I apologize for any misunderstanding in that and will continue on to the other aspects of this case that we are discussing. My apologies

 

[SwampMama]

Jahi's mother feels that Jahi needs time to heal and for she will spark back to a recovery of her brain activity and alertness. BBM below.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=255975738
"The mother of a California girl declared brain dead after complications from a tonsillectomy pleaded for prayers and time to keep her daughter on a ventilator past Monday, when a temporary restraining order barring a hospital from disconnecting life support expires.

"Despite what they say, she is alive. I can touch her, she is warm. She responds to my touch," Nailah Winkfield wrote about 13-year-old Jahi McMath Saturday.

"Given time I know (God) will spark her brain awake," she wrote in the open letter."

 

[SwampMama]

Re" 354

I think it's possible that medical staff have told them, or, at any rate, that the family has interpreted the information given to them, that Jahi is healing because she is on the ventilator. Maybe they believe that if she is on the ventilator longer, she will be healed enough to "wake up" and go home, a normal, happy young woman.

I got the impression that the family do not trust the medical staff because there were problems with the surgery. They felt they were told it was very low risk, and the opposite has proven to be the case. The family also believes that a doctor was called too late to help Jahi when she began bleeding in ICU, so they may think that the hospital is trying to have Jahi removed from the ventilator in order to cover up the mistakes the family may believe that medical staff made either during the surgery, or during the follow-up care, or both.

In that case, if taking Jahi off the ventilator covers an act of incompetence, then they would be against taking her off the machine. Unfortunately, if what I've been reading is correct, the opposite may be true. The healing that is apparently happening will actually cover up the reasons for this tragic situation.

I agree. If the hospital knew that they were guilty of malpractice or gross neglect leading to a death, they would want Jahi ON life support. (Or so I would think). Jahi's mother would have a harder time proving malpractice and damages if Jahi were still alive.) I believe that the autopsy may be what gives us the most info about what went wrong but being on life support may helps those areas heal and may distort the damage. In addition, I believe that her brain will deteriorate and become mushy the longer she stays on life support.

I do feel so bad for her mother. This is a parent's worse nightmare and her mother feels guilty for consenting to the surgery even though it appears that Jahi clearly needed it and had 2 doctors opinions that it was needed.