Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[fruity]

Monday, Dec 16th: "Earlier on Monday, the family told ABC7 News they will not fight with Children's Hospital Oakland anymore and that they have agreed to move Jahi from life support."

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9362444


Wonder what changed?

This article is quite telling. A couple of quotes show the depth of the family's misunderstanding when this first happened. It speaks about cardiac arrest and a heart attack but the mother says Jahi drowned in her own blood. Her brother wonders how her brain can be impacted during mouth surgery (I don't know how young her brother is, he could be very young in which case it would be understandable for him not to comprehend it).

Since this article I feel that the family has had many people explain the reality and now it is a refusal to accept, rather than a misunderstanding. While I do sympathise with their agony and pray that I am never in such an unenviable situation IMO there is more harm than good being done now.

 

[txsvicki]

A restraining order barring the fsmily from the hospital?

 

[SophieRose]

She said that even before the surgery, her daughter had expressed fears that she wouldn't wake up after the operation. To everyone's relief, she appeared alert, was talking and even ate a Popsicle afterward.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-jahi-mcmath-onlife-support-article-1.1554532

Hospital officials said they couldn't discuss the case because the family hasn't given them permission to do so.



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html


The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

ICU nurses take care of two patients at a time. I wonder what the nurse was doing at this time.

 

[gngr~snap]

I hope when the vent is turned off her body is still intact enough to perform an autopsy and perhaps they can see what sort of damage was done by the suctioning by the family. I have suspected from the start that this suctioning made the situation worse. They are right -family should not have to suction an ICU patient, but this fact does not mean that the doctor is respinsible for her death.

It does seem like suctioning would cause more bleeding.
I can understand why they would say the patient should do it themselves in the sense that she would be the only one who knew the level of pain etc caused by the suction equipment.
I've never known of anyone requiring suctioning unless they had a trach.
Now I wonder if she did.
I've never heard of a child in ICU after a routine tonsilectomy either.
so
A: it was not routine and there is more to it
Or
B: something happened during surgery that caused her to end up in the ICU
Either way parents won't allow the hospital to speak. -which I find very odd!

As a nurse if my family member was in the ICU I would follow their directions and not take it upon myself to step in. It's the ICU!
Do they allow family at the bedside for more than a few min at a time?
I guess children's hospitals would.
Still aren't nurses getting vitals every 15 min? (Maybe 30)

I also wonder if she was on oxygen as well.
Something is amiss here. The hospital seems more than willing to release the details, so I believe everything that should have been done was.
Moo
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[otto]

I hope when the vent is turned off her body is still intact enough to perform an autopsy and perhaps they can see what sort of damage was done by the suctioning by the family. I have suspected from the start that this suctioning made the situation worse. They are right -family should not have to suction an ICU patient, but this fact does not mean that the doctor is responsible for her death.

Here, in ICU at the children's hospital, two nurses were assigned to each patient full time. Patients in ICU need and have intensive care. Why would the family be expected to do anything? Wouldn't they just report any concerns to a nurse?

 

[Karmady]

I know that this is not gracious of me at all, but why would any attorney release a letter with such appalling grammar?

I haven't even finished reading it yet. I'm shocked that it wasn't proofread. I understand that emotions are running high and that the family is passionate about their stance, but this is not good for his reputation (among many other things).

So unprofessional.

My guess is it's because it's supposed to be words directly from the family. More sympathetic that way. Little guys against the big bad corporation. jmo

 

[gngr~snap]

Here, in ICU at the children's hospital, two nurses were assigned to each patient full time. Patients in ICU need and have intensive care. Why would the family be expected to do anything? Wouldn't they just report any concerns to a nurse?

My thoughts exactly!

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[fruity]

Yes. I'm also very aware that we are only hearing one side of the story and that the other side isn't being told because the family has forbidden it. In situations where someone is asking to tell their side of the story but their request is being denied it DOES sound like something is being hidden, it a truth isn't being told.

 

[gngr~snap]

The suctioning has me stumped!
Looking for answers!
http://www.nclexpinoy.com/2010/05/nclex-practice-examtest-level-of_31.html?m=1

- "After tonsillectomy, suction equipment should be available, but suctioning is not performed unless there is an airway obstruction because of the risk of trauma to the oropharynx. Monitoring for bleeding is an important nursing intervention following any type of surgery.*"

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[SophieRose]

Here, in ICU at the children's hospital, two nurses were assigned to each patient full time. Patients in ICU need and have intensive care. Why would the family be expected to do anything? Wouldn't they just report any concerns to a nurse?

Wow, two nurses per patient. No wonder it's so expensive.

I know in California that there are laws on nurse/patient ratios in hospitals and that in ICU it's 2 patients per nurse, but not sure if the law is different for children. Only state that has these as laws.

 

[momrids6]

documents presented are here; of special interest, imo, is the mother's statement, found at the bottom, which differs from other documented msm quoted statements made.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24775261/jahi-her-mom-and-13-days-at-childrens

 

[otto]

Wow, two nurses per patient. No wonder it's so expensive.

I know in California that there are laws on nurse/patient ratios in hospitals and that in ICU it's 2 patients per nurse, but not sure if the law is different for children. Only state that has these as laws.

I don't know what is routine in other places, but when my son had brain surgery, there were two nurses with him in ICU full time. He was on a potassium drip and I was told what numbers were safe and which were unsafe so that I could keep an eye on things too, but if the levels needed to be adjusted I would mention it to a nurse. It sounds like the family might have been interfering a bit with her care if they were suctioning blood.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So enormous resources should be spend on keeping brain dead people attached to machines because family believes in miracles? Why does she need to be attached to a ventillator in order for this miracle to happen? Turn off the machine and see if this miracle takes place.

So for you, this is a question of money?

I don't think anyone is talking about herds of corpses attached to ventilators, it's one child. One, this one. Is this one gonna break the bank? Throw the entire already screwed up system into a downward ? Is someone else dying because this hospital has a ventilator shortage? No. No. No.


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[gngr~snap]

documents presented are here; of special interest, imo, is the mother's statement, found at the bottom, which differs from other documented msm quoted statements made.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24775261/jahi-her-mom-and-13-days-at-childrens

" court documents filed by hospital attorneys say the surgery was "complicated" and included procedures to remove tissue elsewhere in the throat and nose."

So it was not a routine tonsillectomy at all.
It sounds like she may have had some nasal surgery as well.
It sounds like more than just removing the adenoids but maybe not.
Moo
ETA: So, was she spitting in a cup and into nakins and not suctioning herself? Did grandma start the suctioning on her own?

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[animlzrule]

Wow, two nurses per patient. No wonder it's so expensive.

I know in California that there are laws on nurse/patient ratios in hospitals and that in ICU it's 2 patients per nurse, but not sure if the law is different for children. Only state that has these as laws.

I can tell you that staffing laws and acuity guidelines are usually not worth the paper on which they're printed, or the policy and procedure manual of which they are a part. Nurses are continuously being given unreasonable patient loads, and it is impossible to be in more than one place at one time. It's quite possible that her nurse was not able to attend to her bedside when the family requested assistance. They may have taken it upon themselves to provide some care. It's an impossible position to be in, both for families and the staff. This is a heartbreaking case, but the family has it in their power to end her suffering and it's so frustrating that they are not able to understand the ramifications of their decisions.

 

[momrids6]

After the surgery, she (Jahi) was fine. She went into the recovery room. She was alert and talking, and she was asking for a Popsicle because she said her throat hurt. As part of the procedure, she was meant to spend the night in ICU,” Sealey said. “When she got moved to ICU, there was a 30-minute wait until any family member could go see her. Upon entry, they saw that there was way too much blood.”

http://whnt.com/2013/12/18/family-w...ort-for-girl-brain-dead-after-tonsil-surgery/

 

[momrids6]

" court documents filed by hospital attorneys say the surgery was "complicated" and included procedures to remove tissue elsewhere in the throat and nose."

So it was not a routine tonsillectomy at all.
It sounds like shw may have had some nasal surgery as well.
It sounds like more than just removing the adenoids but maybe not.
Moo
ETA: So, was she spitting in a cup and into nakins and not suctioning herself? Did grandma start the suctioning in her own?

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An adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty; tissue removal in the throat;
and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...McMath-of-Oakland-Legally-Dead-237179681.html

 

[gngr~snap]

I have had "nose" surgery.
Deviated septum to be specific.
I bled for DAYS!
I was packed the first day, but when it was removed I bled. I had to wear gauze taped under my nose. That was normal for that type surgery. I can't imagine having tonsils done at the same time.

Eventually we will hear the other side. If she had nasal surgery as well,it sounds like she may have pulled her packing out being out of it from pain meds?
Moo


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[gngr~snap]

An adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty; tissue removal in the throat;
and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction


http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...McMath-of-Oakland-Legally-Dead-237179681.html

Ah! A 3rd! Missed that. Thank you! :seeya:

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[Trino]

So for you, this is a question of money?

I don't think anyone is talking about herds of corpses attached to ventilators, it's one child. One, this one. Is this one gonna break the bank? Throw the entire already screwed up system into a downward ? Is someone else dying because this hospital has a ventilator shortage? No. No. No.


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I don't think it's a question of money. It's a question of state law. The child has been declared deceased, and the hospital cannot perform this on a deceased individual. There doesn't appear to be a physician willing to do this either.